1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

And here we go...''Joe Philbin didn’t much like the way his team looked in pregame''

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by djphinfan, Sep 27, 2015.

  1. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    111,652
    67,546
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    and this is why ryan needs to continue to evolve as a leader, a little quicker would be ideal.
     
  2. cbrad

    cbrad .

    10,659
    12,657
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    Doesn't explain the 1st quarter anomaly. Are you suggesting that the players can't create the right emotional state before the game, but somehow can do it magically at halftime? Because we do well in the 3rd quarter.

    To explain that, you have to look at the difference in plays that are run based on game tape of the opponent from previous games vs. what was seen in the first half. Philbin apparently can make good adjustments once he knows what the other side is doing. What he can't do is design good game plans without seeing what the other side decided to do.
     
    djphinfan and Bpk like this.
  3. cbrad

    cbrad .

    10,659
    12,657
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    Refer to my post #43. I entered this debate saying it wasn't necessarily an emotional issue.
     
  4. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    111,652
    67,546
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    not true, he will get credit for recognizing his weakness, addressing it, and finding a sloution that works.
     
    Bpk likes this.
  5. cbrad

    cbrad .

    10,659
    12,657
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    Yeah at no point would I paint myself into a corner by saying it's all on the HC. But I will argue that if one person deserves more blame for general trends over time, it's the HC.
     
  6. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    Which means we would benefit from making those adjustments as soon as possible during the game, rather than waiting until halftime.

    We need to sort out how to make on the fly adjustments during the first half.
     
    cbrad likes this.
  7. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    111,652
    67,546
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    I saw players doing what they were told scheme wise...
     
  8. cbrad

    cbrad .

    10,659
    12,657
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    EXACTLY!! Obvious to us.. for some unknown reason not obvious to you know who.
     
  9. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

    7,853
    8,088
    113
    Sep 23, 2014
    I'd compare it to the role of the QB. If the offense isn't producing people tend to point at the QB, which is fine, generally speaking. But we also need to drill down and see what the OL, the receivers, OC, etc are doing. The premise being presented here by many is that the team falls behind, it's because they aren't playing hard, aren't prepared, it's the HCs fault, etc. What I don't see is the drilling down into specifics to see if that's actually the case.
     
  10. 77FinFan

    77FinFan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    8,215
    1,896
    113
    Mar 10, 2013
    Buckeye Land
    I'm more inclined to think that people will say the team overcame Philbin's bad coaching.
     
  11. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

    1,818
    572
    0
    Dec 23, 2014
    What that would suggest to me is that the team doesn't have a crystallized enough long-term goal, and so it has to function more on the much shorter term, i.e., generating emotion from trying to come back after falling behind. If the team had a goal of winning the Super Bowl for example, and it believed it could do so, then every game would be viewed as a stepping stone in that direction, and the team would likely come out poised and determined to get ahead early, win the game, and put another notch in its belt on the way to its goal. Think of how Tom Brady probably has the Patriots galvanized toward a Super Bowl -- every year -- and then think about how far this team probably is from having that sort of leadership presence in the locker room before a game.
     
  12. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    111,652
    67,546
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    players have to approach the beginning of a football game with a level of intensity and focus, whoever's level is higher is usually going to start the game performing better...that level is correlated with the coach's and qb's ability.
     
  13. cbrad

    cbrad .

    10,659
    12,657
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    Yeah, that theory doesn't sound very likely to be true IMO (sounds a bit ad hoc to me). Well, we have different opinions on this, which is fine. I think the problem is a game-planning issue, you think it's more player leadership/emotional issue.

    More important thing (by far) is whether the Dolphins can come out strong today in the 1st quarter.
     
  14. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    111,652
    67,546
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    I agree wholeheartedly, but that doesn't absolve the head coach from doing his part, or in this sense making up for the lack of leadership amongst the players...get the team hyped up to play to overcome the lack of leadership, maybe thats what you have to do.
     
  15. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

    7,853
    8,088
    113
    Sep 23, 2014
    I saw McCain being abused. Aikens smoked. Grimes gave up a big play and dropped a pick. Jennings drops a gimme in the red zone. Jenkins running into his own guy and allowing a big run that should have been no gain at best. Vernon offsides to keep the first drive alive, then a PF to put them in FG range for the win. James holding twice. Landry a big drop on 3rd down. Fox being dominated by Odrick. Franks missed a FG. Wake was invisible, he was yanked, mercifully. NOBODY on defense made a big play the whole game, on a day when they gave up several. Still the team had a chance to win late.

    And we're talking about Philbin?
     
  16. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

    1,818
    572
    0
    Dec 23, 2014
    All of this stuff is indeed interrelated. Coming out fired up is related to having a long-term goal of winning big, which is related to the belief in the team's ability to actually do that, which is related to the ability of the head coach (and the coordinators) and the QB, primarily. However, if the team lacks the leadership among the players, those other variables could be in place, and there would be no one to voice the message. You'd have 53 "free-floating" individuals, instead of a group that was made cohesive and unified by its leadership among the players.
     
  17. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

    1,818
    572
    0
    Dec 23, 2014
    How exactly would a head coach get a team hyped up, if the team isn't already?
     
  18. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

    7,853
    8,088
    113
    Sep 23, 2014
    Seahawks, Eagles, Colts, Saints, Ravens, Lions, Bears, all 0-2. Coaching issues there too?
     
    77FinFan likes this.
  19. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

    1,818
    572
    0
    Dec 23, 2014
    If that were true, then you'd have a coaching staff that wasn't as good at gameplanning in the week's worth of time before the game, as it was at making the much quicker in-game gameplanning adjustments necessary to overcome its initial ineptitude. That doesn't jibe. If you aren't good at something when you have a week to do it, you probably aren't going to be very good at it when you're pressed for time with it. They can gameplan during a 12-minute halftime, but not in a week?
     
  20. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    111,652
    67,546
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    ok so you think the jags have more talent than we do...just say that and move on.
     
  21. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    5,227
    6,527
    113
    Dec 7, 2014
    Maybe after like 9 or 10 mediocre seasons, Philbin will finally snap and we'll see what team that's both disciplined and angry can really do.
     
  22. cbrad

    cbrad .

    10,659
    12,657
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    Like I said in post #82, the difference is game planning against something you know (what was seen in the 1st half) vs. something you don't know (game plan of opponent for the game).

    Stated differently, Philbin seems to have trouble predicting what the opponent will do. Once he has an idea of what the opponent will do, he can adjust well. It's the most reasonable hypothesis I can think of to explain the 1st quarter anomaly.
     
  23. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

    1,818
    572
    0
    Dec 23, 2014
    Implicit in that hypothesis is your belief that Philbin can recognize what the opponent is doing, or he couldn't make the in-game adjustment you're talking about. The planning during the preceding week involves that same recognition of the opponent, in terms of its tendencies. So if Philbin is having trouble predicting what the opponent will do, then given Philbin's recognition abilities (which you've implicitly acknowledged), then the opponent must be deviating from its own tendencies.
     
  24. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

    7,853
    8,088
    113
    Sep 23, 2014
    They have enough talent to beat the Dolphins, same as the other 30 teams. Seems like you're struggling to understand that.
     
  25. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    111,652
    67,546
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    I can see two points...that these players as a group do not have the belief in the coaches that they can win it all, I also can see that they dont have the leaders inside the locker room, so, dont you think thats the coaches responsibility to create a unified team?, even if he doesnt have the leaders inside?, lets look at it like this, were the third youngest team in football, maybe find a mindset that they can believe in, ''like you have a lot to prove mindset to earn respect, the underdog role etc? something...

    You look at the leadership qualities of ryan and philbin, maybe its just not there with both..I love ryans toughness and his awareness not to ever throw his teammates under the bus, but it seems like its not enough, he has to show some emotion..and he doesnt really.
     
  26. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    111,652
    67,546
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    the coaches personality, demeanor, energy, ability to communicate..leadership intangibles..its highly unlikely our team is filled with guys who are debbie downers..maybe their just looking for their coach and qb to lead them and their failing to provide that?
     
  27. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    111,652
    67,546
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    so if all teams have the talent to beat one another, that was is the discernable difference to winning? coaching and leadership maybe?

    listen I dont want to come across that i'm completely leaving the players out of the blame pot, but when your coach comes out and says he doesnt like the energy hes seeing in warmups, then we need to start there.
     
  28. cbrad

    cbrad .

    10,659
    12,657
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    Well there are different "tendencies" people can recognize. You might have the ability to recognize tendencies of the opponent within a game (because there was a game plan), but have trouble predicting how the opponent will change that game plan based on opponent (even though you have game tape of that opponent vs. many other opponents).

    That 2nd ability is almost non-existent for most humans in whatever context you are in. There are some famous examples where it looks like an NFL coach did that though: Don Shula in SB 8 against the Vikings seemed to always be one step ahead. But even for Shula that was rare.

    Now if your next question is why other coaches can do this better.. I think it's just a question of degree. No one is that good at it, but some are just better than others.
     
  29. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    111,652
    67,546
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    its year 4 bro, its judgement time, if you cant elevate your team incrementally then you fail in this league..year 4...

    today is the day he needs to show that he can get his team unified and truly willing to fight someone..
     
  30. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

    1,818
    572
    0
    Dec 23, 2014
    I don't think the players look to the coach for that sort of thing. I think they witness their teammates being inspired and making plays, and that rubs off on them. The best-case scenario is to have team leaders who provide the "battle cry" before the game, and then go out there and back that up with plays. That is inspiring. What one guy says to me in the locker room before the game isn't nearly as impactful IMO. Think William Wallace in "Braveheart." What's more inspiring, that guy out there with you, laying his life on the line and shedding blood with you, or the guy in the rear, giving orders.
     
    Piston Honda likes this.
  31. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,329
    9,874
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    It amazes me that there are people who have watched the Dolphins the last three seasons, and the first two games of this season, who STILL want to argue that the team doesn't come out flat. We've consistently seen the team play much better football in the second half of games, as compared to the first half of games. If that doesn't scream coming out flat, I don't know what does.
     
  32. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

    1,818
    572
    0
    Dec 23, 2014
    How did they do in the three seasons prior to that? I'd be surprised to find that a team that didn't make the playoffs in those three years, either, came out "guns-a-blazin'."
     
    Piston Honda likes this.
  33. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,329
    9,874
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    That doesn't matter, though. I'm not discussing Sparano, and whether his teams were flat. Although, I don't recall them being flat, other than in the red zone. Philbin's teams consistently come out flat. I watch other teams, and they don't look as lethargic to start games as the Dolphins.
     
  34. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

    1,818
    572
    0
    Dec 23, 2014
    The point is that coming out flat (or getting behind early) may be far more a function of talent than of coaching. If Sparano's teams between 2009 and 2011 did the same thing, it would argue for that hypothesis. In fact, what I'd expect someone to find is that the worse teams in the league start games worse than the better ones, almost across the board.
     
  35. BigNastyDB13

    BigNastyDB13 Well-Known Member

    767
    386
    63
    Oct 12, 2012
    Fans find it easier to blame it all on the coaches. Is Philbin a good coach, no. But to say the players came out flat in a season opener at Washington and blaming it on the hc is ridiculous. If you need your hc to fire you up for any game, let alone the first 3 weeks of the season you're a pos player to begin with. I think the "flat" card is way overused. It's more likely ****ty execution, bad plays, penalties etc than it is a lack of emotion cause your hc looks like Mr. Garrison and coaches like a math teacher.
     
    Piston Honda likes this.
  36. cbrad

    cbrad .

    10,659
    12,657
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    Coaching: Baltimore goes for it on 4th and 5 at midfield.. this is with 7 minutes left in the 3rd quarter, down by 14. Harbaugh understands it's worth taking a risk, especially after starting 0-2 for the year. Result? TD! (unlikely result, but worth the risk).
     
  37. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    111,652
    67,546
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    at home its always been the same problem regardless of the coach..

    I agree with tannephins that its gonna take special players to play in this town, said a bunch of times, but the coach does impact the mindset of the team, he can elevate his players senses if hes good..I believe that.
     
  38. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    111,652
    67,546
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    we were saying some of the same things when sparano was coaching..

    like your intimating, the one time he had the player that had the special quality you speak of {pennington} we won.
     
  39. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    111,652
    67,546
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    but were commenting on our coaches comments, he said he was concerned about how we were warming up, does that not seem like it could affect how you begin a ballgame? and is that not partially his responsibility? and does the evidence suggest that it may of been likely/

    I dont think were discussing anything outlandish here
     
  40. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

    1,818
    572
    0
    Dec 23, 2014
    Precisely. And don't discount the effect of Joey Porter on the other side of the ball that year, as well. That was the last time the Dolphins had very good players with very good leadership ability.
     

Share This Page