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Mel Kiper bashes Tannehill

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by yoge, Oct 8, 2015.

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  1. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    Because Fin D has pictures of the mods with sheep.


    Other than him I don't think anyone is REALLY basing their argument on anything other than their belief on the topic. Where it gets out of hand is the constant comment without substance....for example I've been accused personally of a lot of erroneous things that I have never typed once on this site. And when I ask for an example?? Ppl ignore it, or make a post claiming I'm a leader of X, so my opinion must be similar.

    Ryan isn't a bad QB, but he is playing like crap.

    Ryan isn't the reason we suck, but he isn't doing anything to make us better.

    Instead of moving from top 10-12 (my offseason stance) Ryan has been surpassed and more like 14-16...it's only a qtr of the season and he can still turn it on, but as of now he hasn't and deserves a lot of the crap being thrown his way.
     
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  2. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    Well it seems to me that you put a lot of onus on every other aspect of the team being part of the w/l outcome, except QB, who is more responsible than any other aspect.

    We've had a chance to get in the playoffs 2 years in a row and Tanne is the main reason why we didn't.
     
  3. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Wrong, Finster.

    You put all the onus on the QB, while overlooking terrible oline play, bad receiver play, bad defense, and poor coaching.

    Again, here we go with the win/loss argument.

    You guys are seriously overstating what Tannehill needs for help. Give him an average defense, and average oline play, and he'll be fine. I guise that's too much to ask for.
     
  4. 2socks

    2socks Rebuilding Since 1973

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    We should allow him superstar status

    Trade Tannehill.

    He will then shoot to the top of the league like lots of former Dolphins
     
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  5. Rock Sexton

    Rock Sexton Anti-Homer

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    Please recite the list of former Dolphin QB's who have gone on to do that ...... smh
     
  6. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    He didn't specify QBs.

    Do you deny that this regime jettisoned many players who became successful elsewhere? Complaining that Tannehill isn't as good as you want, but ignoring the people responsible for him to develop, who have a terrible track record at developing talent elsewhere on the team, seems silly.
     
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  7. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    I don't overlook any of that, it's actually you that overlooks avg QB play.
     
  8. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    You do overlook it, and refuse to admit that those could be major factors in why you see what you see.
     
  9. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    He didn't say QBs, just former players.

    Vontae Davis being one. Just one of many. Sean Smith.
     
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  10. atomdomb

    atomdomb Banned

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    This is pretty good. It seems the offense replete with so many short passes may be built to hide a glaring weakness. Even with Mike Wallace teams were sitting on those short routes a ton. Also, sitting on short routes puts more defenders near the line of scrimmage which should hurt the run game.
     
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  11. Serpico Jones

    Serpico Jones Well-Known Member

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    Bingo.
     
  12. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    The weakness being a ****ty oline.
     
  13. atomdomb

    atomdomb Banned

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    Are you saying that in next year's draft if the dolphins take a Qb high in the draft Tanny is still going to be developing? Shouldn't he be fully mature by year five?
     
  14. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    For the record, Wallace looks unspectacular again this year. That makes the fourth season in a row now. Can we be done with this Wallace crap?
     
  15. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    With the record this staff had for developing players, why would we assume that he would have been properly developed, and near done developing?
     
  16. Serpico Jones

    Serpico Jones Well-Known Member

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    Wallace caught 10 touchdowns last year and just had a big game in Denver.
     
  17. BigNastyDB13

    BigNastyDB13 Well-Known Member

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    The weaknesses being a ****ty oline AND mediocre qb play. Along with the play calling and defense. Fixed that for ya. :up:
     
  18. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Clearly speaking about him as a deep threat. He averaged 10 yards a catch. 8-83 and one td isn't exactly what I would call "huge."

    ****ty oline play tends negatively affect QB play, no matter who the QB is.
     
  19. atomdomb

    atomdomb Banned

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    I agree. There are many aspects that go into an average team. I think the hardest to overcome is the mediocre Qb play. The last team to win the super bowl and overcome mediocre Qb play is the 2006 colts. One of the greatest of all time played like crap and his team carried him to the ring. So... that means Tanny better step it up big time.
     
  20. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Dom, how quickly Pats fans have forgotten last season. All I heard through the first couple games was how they were worried Brady was done. I told you all to chill, when your oline settled, you'd be fine. And you were. But you come on talking about Tannehill, ignoring his oline, and ignoring what your superstar looked like behind a crappy oline.

    It all starts with the line.
     
  21. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

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    Right. Pats OL went from being terrible to the best in football. That's why!




    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  22. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    Just as ****ty QB play negatively affects the WR play. [emoji106]


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  23. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    Tom Brady was hit and harrassed all game....still balled.

    Thats nothing against Ryan because a Tom Brady he will never be, so comparing them is dumb. Merely pointing out that some QBs can overcome a bad OL...not many but it happens every Sunday.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  24. yogi superstar

    yogi superstar Banned

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    why are you guys so angry?

    let the union of your body and mind bring you peace through yoga.

    Namaste.
     
  25. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Merely referencing last year, when you might recall, people were talking about Brady "losing it." All that was happening was terrible oline play for the first couple games. Our maybe Brady lost his magic sack for the beginning of last season? I bet that's it. Once he found his magic sack, he was back to normal.

    Tannehill hasn't played "****ty." Close, maybe. Hard to judge, given the state of the team this season.
     
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  26. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    8/83/1 against the best D in the league. He's only been targeted past 20 yards 3 times in 4 games. Norv is riding AP.

    Tannehill looks terrible without Wallace by the way ;)
     
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  27. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    No, Tannehill looks terrible with an oline worse than last year, and a run game getting less than 2 yards a carry.
     
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  28. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    And who knows whether that's due at least in part to Tannehill's inability to hit the long ball and make plays under pressure. When you're unable to do either of those things routinely, defenses know it and can pin their ears back instead of keeping contain, while defending the shorter routes in the passing game. Again, the quarterback has an effect on what you're seeing out there.
     
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  29. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    Football in all its complexities still becomes a very simple game at times. The fact that people cant grasp how an offensive line with three poor to very poor starters will make any QB innefectual is sad really. Apparently we have a lot of posters a few fries short of a happy meal when it comes to understand the game. There is no scheme, no plays, no pocket presence bs that is going to allow you to function on any sort of consistent basis when3/5ths of your line sucks. Too many holes allowing defenders to breach. Tannehill is a top ten QB if you adjust for what he plays with against other qbs. You guys really don't grasp how poor the team around him is
     
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  30. ExplosionsInDaSky

    ExplosionsInDaSky Well-Known Member

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    Tannehill right now, in my opinion is a top twelve QB. Meaning there are about eleven QBs i'd currently take over him. While he hasn't been great for us, I still think the O Line is atrocious. In fact....we have the worst line in the league by a large margin. Even San Francisco's line is better than ours.
     
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  31. yogi superstar

    yogi superstar Banned

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    Stafford better not be on that list!

    He stunk it up yesterday.
     
  32. Rock Sexton

    Rock Sexton Anti-Homer

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    This guy lololol
     
  33. Rock Sexton

    Rock Sexton Anti-Homer

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    That's going to be your excuse for Ryan's entire career.
     
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  34. Rock Sexton

    Rock Sexton Anti-Homer

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    Top 10? That's spelled H-O-M-E-R.

    Adjusters be adjustin'.
     
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  35. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Russell Wilson's lines were bad the past few years. 2013 when they were depleted with injuries faced almost the most pressure, number of rushers, and least time to throw. 100 rating.
     
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  36. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

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    The norm in the league is that QBs don't become great. Until Tannehill achieves greatness, the default explanation and prediction surrounding it is that he isn't and will not be great, rather than attributing his play to other factors.

    If on the other hand you believe that Tannehill is only "X" away from being great, then you should have a list of QBs who never became great because of "X," or who became great only because "X" was added or changed, and there should be some way of reliably determining that. If you can't reliably determine that, then you have no reliable way of knowing what Tannehill would be doing with "X."
     
  37. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    No they weren't. They ran the ball damn effectively. Our line cant run block or pass block. Seattles line was one dimensional. We are zero dimensional. Our blocking doesn't exist. If you can run as effectively as Seattle you buy yourself an extra second of pass protection just by virtue of the defense reading run first before rushing.
     
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  38. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    Yeah and MORON spells anyone who cant fathom how bad our line is
     
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  39. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Marshawn lynch had the same ypc as miller essentially. You don't understand how bad their line was I'm 2013. They just stuck with the run game unlike our coach. Lynch earned every inch of that 4.2 ypc. Miller had 4.0.

    Their run game looked decent because of ... Wilson.

    Their LT, lg, c, rt all missed games and I think their rg was a rookie or just starting
     
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  40. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The NFL is a place where you're going to face great pass rushers every week. It's hardly a rarity that you face a great DE or DT that is highly disruptive. In the NFL, a team is expected to be able to combat that effectively. That involves the offensive line buying the QB time and establishing some holes for the RB. It also involves the QB understanding what he wants to do pre-snap and doing not just an average but excellent job getting the ball out quickly and doing so accurately in the face of pressure.

    The issue with all of that at the NFL is that the margins are razor thin and the standards are high. If the pass blocking is even a little suspect it’ll show. If the RB isn’t helping the line the running game can stagnate. Likewise, if the QB isn’t accurate, can’t read the defense or doesn’t react well to pressure it’s going to show. It’s going to be obvious.

    If an offense doesn't prove early in a game that it can push the ball down the field and beat the initial rush that's coming, that rush is only going to increase until the defense is so suffocating that the offense cannot operate at all due to the quickness and severity of the pressure. We’ve seen this time and time again with the Dolphins where nothing happens early and eventually the opposing defense is just pining its ears back and pressuring the line knowing they’ll get to the QB or RB. The running game also evaporates quickly when the defense pressures the line of scrimmage.

    You cannot play NFL football the way the Dolphins do because the defenses they face are too good. There routinely comes a point at which no part of the offense seems adequate because the deck is so stacked against it. That is the problem with Tannehill and this offense right now. No one is capable of stepping up, not the RBs, the QB or the lineman.


    If the Dolphins had the kind of run-blocking line and physical, hard to tackle RB they lack the team would be able to come out with some success more consistently and put points on the board while they set up play-action and got Tannehill hitting the intermediate parts of the field behind the LBs. However have a west coast style offense due to a lack of rushing ability which seeks offset the lack of running with short passes. This pseudo running game doesn’t work however when there is no vertical or deep component to push the defense back.

    As hard as this is for some to believe, the play of the line isn’t going to improve until the QB starts pushing the ball downfield. This seems rather obvious given that Tannehill avoids the longer passes and routinely checks the ball down. The general lack of explosiveness within the offense makes this rather obvious. So the question is why don’t we see this issue addressed?

    Some contend that the QB can’t begin to do that until the line provides time but based on the way other teams combat limited pass blocking I doubt that’s the case. I simply don’t buy the idea that the team can’t push the ball downfield all because the line isn’t very good. Part of the reason the line doesn’t look good is that they are trying to support an offense that refuses to push the defense back.

    If you watch enough football you begin to realize that pushing the ball down the field is integral to any offense because there are simply too many defenders on the field if the defense only has to cover a 10-15 yard distance off the line. This is demonstrated in the difficult associated with red zone passing. The area is simply too congested to operate an offense via passing. Every play becomes a near disaster with INTs and incompletions looming right around the corner thanks to small throwing lanes and tight coverage.

    QBs league-wide routinely beat the rush with well-timed downfield passes and the Dolphins themselves regularly show once or twice a game (usually during the up-tempo 2-minute drills) that they too are capable of the same success. So, the point is, we know Miami can do it but they continually opt for a slower and more methodical brand of football that their lack of execution simply deems unlikely to work.

    So the question becomes is this because of the QB’s short-comings or because of a bad play-caller? By any other name, that’s really the question that gets debated in these threads about Tannehill, Lazor and the offensive struggles.


    If there was any reason for me to believe Tannehill would begin to regularly come out and push the ball downfield like we see in the team's 2-minute offense, I'd be less critical and I'd sound more optimistic. However, since Tannehill arrived in Miami those few good drives which are highlighted by up-tempo play-calling, quick decisions and a gunslinger-like willingness to throw the ball into the intermediate areas tend to be the exceptions rather than the rule. Most drives are painfully slow with little timing demonstrated between each of the players. I don't know all the reasons behind that but I'm pretty sure that if the Dolphins had Tom Brady or Peyton Manning it wouldn't be like that. We wouldn’t see that sort of inconsistency and general lethargy.

    I would give Tannehill more of a break but he's the QB. I'll admit, after watching a lot of football, I'm biased. I'm inclined to believe that the offense of any team will slowly take on the character of the QB. If the QB is slow in his reads or lazy in his technique or cautious in his decision making or conservative with his scrambling, etc. the offense will stagnate. This is something I feel the Dolphins share in common with the Chiefs where QB Alex Smith just cannot see the field well enough to pressure a defense.

    If the QB is a gunslinger or a scrambler the offense will slowly evolve in that direction regardless of the OC (i.e. Packers with Favre, Packers with Rodgers, Colts with Luck, Seahawks with Wilson, Panthers with Newton, Dallas with Romo, etc.). If the QB is an intelligent, quick-thinking and accurate passer the offense will eventually show those qualities (i.e. Bengals this year with Dalton, Patriots with Brady, Broncos and Colts with Peyton, Saints during their heyday with Brees, etc.).

    I've said before that I don't think there's any way Tannehill ever gets to the level of the game's most cerebral QBs: Brees, Peyton, Brady, etc. I'm not apologizing for that. I just don't think he's got the tools in any area of his game for that to even be a question. He can however be successful in the way that Newton, Romo, Rodgers, Wilson and other athletic QBs are who demonstrate abilities both in and out of the pocket to varying degrees of success. For whatever reason though Tannehill doesn't seem inclined to utilize those athletic abilities and thus he's not even capable of living up to what limited expectations are there for a WR-turned-QB with 19 games of college experience.

    I’m not ready to completely write off Ryan Tannehill but he needs to start extending plays and taking some chances early in games when the defense is testing him. He’s the one that needs to come out with more energy and aggression when it comes to scoring early. With the kind of play that the Dolphins have gotten from Landry and Matthews this year (not to mention what we know Cameron and Stills can do and what we hope Parker will show) it’s really on Tannehill to start giving those guys more chances.



    Typically, the best passers tend to be the ones who routinely get the ball out of their hands extremely quickly. There's always an exception like Brady back in 2007 when he regularly had 4-5 seconds to throw but on the average, we see most good passers operate quickly within the pocket (i.e. Peyton, Brees, Palmer, etc.). They know exactly what they want to do before the snap and the vast majority of the time they throw to their 1st or 2nd reads so pass protection is hardly in question. The QBs who do take extra time afford themselves that luxury with great mobility (Romo, Rodgers, Newton, Luck, Russell, etc.).

    I’ve seen Wilson, Peyton, Newton and now Dalton too handle quick pressure incredibly well this season alone. That’s part of a QBs job. At this point, Tannehill needs to show that he can help his line just a little bit because it’s not going to get any better until he proves to the NFL that he’s not just a 1-trick pony that can dink and dunk his way to a good TD/INT ratio.

    I can overlook a 20-INT season if Tannehill shows me something this year. Get out of the pocket and take some shots. It’s really all I’m asking.
     
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