Mel Kiper bashes Tannehill

I'm hoping that's how it goes. I'm not sure this team is capable of turning it around defensively within a couple weeks though so I could see Mariota doing well.

I agree with you that IF the protection is there Tannehill is capable of having a very clean game but so far this year it's been bad. You're right about Albert being a huge key in that regard.

 

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Lauren Tannehill is NOT a 10. Unless your scale goes to 15. She's attractive, not ugly, but not super hot.

 

Can we stop rating people's wives?

Its stupid and rude.

I'm aware I've done it in the past, but I've come to realize its just degrading.

 

Hehehehehe....no comment.


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Go ahead and make your stupid comment.

 

Just so we're clear, here are a few facts on Tannehill and pocket presence. There's a debate going on in the Club on a similar subject. If you don't like it or don't like Tannehill then fine. If you don't know who I am and what I know then ask around. But if you're going to run Tannehill down then at least do it on the basis of fact. So..............

Do you actually know how difficult it is to drop back, snap after snap with your eyes downfield, mechanics consistent and 300lb defenders running at you or 270lb defenders running at you as fast as the wide receivers that you’re trying to throw to? I mean seriously. Do you?

Do you know how hard that is when you have the Dallas Cowboys OL in front of you? All Pro Tyron Smith, Ronald Leary, All Pro Travis Fredrick, All Pro Zack Martin, Doug Free. How hard, when you have the best line in the game? I tell you what, let’s ask the man who plays in front of them:

“Man I have the best offensive line in the game. I do, and these guys work hard to keep me clean but it’s always difficult knowing where the pressure is coming from. Defenses are so quick and they can send guys from everywhere and because they’re quick they do such a good job in disguise. Every season it’s a bigger battle than the season before because of the changes they make.”

So that’s the opinion of the quarterback with the best line in the game, who protects him better than anyone. What about Tom Brady? People say that his pocket presence is great and his line is always changing. Well, he also gets rid of the ball at an average time of 2.1 seconds after the snap. Faster than any passer in the game. Truth is, the Patriots know that Brady doesn’t have great pocket presence which is why they run the system they do and have perennially run. Brady can’t handle pressure up the gut and doesn’t have the ability or speed of foot to escape backside pressure. Look at what the Cowboys did to him on Sunday and it’s what teams have been doing to him for years if the coverage down the field is good – he’s not even close to the same passer. The Cowboys on Sunday made him fearful. His pocket presence and his game fell apart. Fortunately the Cowboys had nothing on offense because they would have run away with that game.

So what of Tannehill? Branden Albert/Jason Fox at left tackle, Dallas Thomas Mike Pouncey/Sam Brenner at center Jamil Douglas, Ja’Wuan James at RT. Fox, Thomas and Douglas have been total liabilities. The guards especially. Tannehill doesn’t have time – and the key is he consistently HASN’T had time – to even allow his receivers to consistently get to the top of their routes. Put on the second half of the Jaguars game. Guy is getting crushed. Consistently since he came into the league he’s been crushed. Up the middle, back side pressure, blind side sacks, game after game after game. When you don’t know where it’s coming from – as Tony Romo has already elucidated – it’s tough enough. But when you don’t know where it’s coming from and you’re STILL getting crushed on every throw then it makes you punch drunk. It does, whether you like it or not.

Does he have a good internal clock? I’d say it’s average to slightly above average but quite frankly who can tell because his internal clock must be at about 1.5 seconds as opposed to the league average of 2.9 seconds (where protection begins to break down). If he has that strong sense of timing paired with decent peripheral vision to sense pressure then he’s generally going to make fewer mistakes. But if you can’t get close to that 2.9 seconds, how can anyone truly tell what his internal clock is like? Seriously.

So can he sense pressure? He is sacked MORE QUICKLY than any passer in the game. He gets sacked MORE QUICKLY than any other passer in the game by pressure through the A and the B gaps. Those are facts. So how are we judging his ability to sense pressure? Because if he’s sacked through the middle more than any other quarterback in the game, where is he running to? Where is he stepping? Into the blitzing DB or LB who hasn’t been blocked because our backs can’t pick up the blitz? Or step into the end who’s beaten Fox around the edge? John Elway used to say that he could see the shadows in his peripheral vision so he’d know when to step up/step out. But again, where would Elway step TO if both DT’s have penetrated through the middle or have shut down the holes.

I have rarely if ever seen a QB have such bad OL play so consistently. Truly. And I’ve been following this game intently for 31 years.

So does he have Peyton Manning abilities to get rid of the ball or throw it into the ground, to take the positive negative play? No. Not nearly as much as you’d like. But again, has Peyton ever faced the perimeter or internal OL pressure that Tannehill does on a consistent basis? The overwhelming answer is no. People say “But Tannehill is mobile so why can’t he scramble?” AGAIN. Where will he scramble to? Mike Vick is probably the most mobile QB in NFL history but his pocket presence wasn’t great. But at least he had lanes to get into. I think Ryan climbs the pocket pretty well but his mechanics tend to fall away. But I firmly, FIRMLY believe that’s because he’s so often stepping from one maelstrom into another.

I actually think the best judge of his pocket presence is his ability to stand tall in the pocket, which is also a key component of pocket presence. He stands as tall as any passer in the league not called Ben Roethlisberger. Ben has better feet and ability to play that piano with those feet but Ryan will stand tall and deliver throws despite taking a mauling.

Ultimately we’re judging a passer who currently doesn’t get the time to throw the ball and when he gets sacked we’re saying “why didn’t he get rid of it, why did he take the sack?” But if the time he’s getting is less than any other passer in the game and if he’s getting sacked quicker than any other passer, are we in a position to accurately judge pocket presence?

I would say no. Would I like him to break contain more? Yes. Although I would ask “to where?” Would I like him to maintain his mechanics when facing backside pressure? Yes. But when your wideouts aren’t even given the time to create separation because the QB can’t get to the top of his drop without feeling pressure, then how can we accurately assess fairly?

I’ll leave the final analysis back on Brady. One of the key reasons Suh was signed was to create the sort of pressure that Brady hates – straight into his face because he can’t manoeuvre. The reason Jim Bates brought in the old Tiger formation was so that Jason Taylor could rush Brady from a sort of pistol version of the MLB spot. But how is the narrative around Tom Brady and pocket presence? Well if you read 80% of journalists, he’s mentioned as one of the best. Patently wrong. It’s why the NE offensive system is why it is and why it’s so successful. It’s why Brady wouldn’t’ be nearly the success he is in a pro-style offense.

 

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/miami-dolphins/fl-hyde-dolphins-column-1015-20151014-column.html

Been saying this for a while


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Lauren Tannehill is an average looking blonde. Not my style at all .... gangly, sorority looking kind of girl.

 

I agree with 80% of this, it is basically the theory that Qb'ng is difficult behind a bad OL. That is certainly valid. What worries me is what he does or doesnt do even with time that worries me.

His OC is doing NOTHING to help these rushes, and Ryan is slowly developing mental happy feet in my opinion, inwhich he drops back expecting pressure which effects his confidence to make harder throws, and tends to force him to check down.

Its a problem with the OL and the QB but imo mostly the OC.


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And yet 85% of your posting is about Tannehill's deficiencies.

Weird, considering you mostly agree with that post and think the biggest issue with our offense is the OC.

Go ahead and tell me I didn't read what you said correctly, then insult me while ignoring the point.

 

Exactly.

 

You realize he said that what worries him is that he's worried about what tannehill does or doesn't do with time?

I mean I know he didn't mean it, but the fact that you highlighted and said Exactly, to an eff up is pretty funny.

 

85% of the threads are about Ryan.


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And he kind of looks like a gangly frat guy, brah.

So...

 

And? You'd think in all those posts you'd have put the blame on the OC or oline, but nope, for the most part, its all bashing Tannehill and me and resnor.

 

Great. Thanks for sharing.

 

Considering his salary next season hes going to get released anyways. No way we pay a 34 year old past his prime DE 10 million. We have other areas to address.

 

I think you've basically echoed the questions of the side you think you're debating though. This is the same sentiment that's being expressed by the folks questioning Tannehill.

No one has made a case that the line isn't bad. That's not the argument and it never was. The debate is about what Tannehill could be doing given the poor line play and you are asking for the same improvements as everyone else. You're just doing it by making a casual reference like 'he's not exactly Peyton Manning when it comes to getting rid of the ball and avoiding a negative play' or 'I'd like to see him use his legs more.'

Well that sir is what the debate is about. What could he be doing that he's not is the question.

We have long since acknowledged that there are lot of things he can't do because of the O-line but to skewer the folks who are suggesting he could make actual improvement despite the line is wrong. I think the thing that is somewhat annoying is how many people pretend to be "fair" when in reality they're just skirting around the real questions and the real conversation. It'd be really easy to argue against the idea that Tannehill should be great despite the bad line but no one is making that point in any of these conversations.

When people argue against that unfounded point it's a waste of time. We don't need it quite frankly.

We're all asking for Tannehill to make improvements. We're way past the point where we need to keep acknowledging the line and shifting the conversation to a pointless downward spiral in which we're not allowed to do any actual critical review of Tannehill because it's become off limits.

 

The narrative would have you believe he's facing a jailbreak pass rush on every single passing down. I saw the stat that he's pressured something like 43% of the time, but what constitutes that exactly? Again, QB's can adjust in the pocket to avoid certain pressures.

 

All fair points and as I've said, he doesn't always help himself. But as YOU said, Bill Lazor isn't helping him either. At some point, when you throw in how many hits, how much pressure he's under, we have to raise our hands and say that the sample of what we're looking at in terms of our measureables is totally skewed because we simply can't keep him upright.

 

Except as I've shown, what are you expecting him to do given the parameters set for him by the offensive line. Genuine question Greg. What are you expecting him to do when he's getting frontside and backside pressure. Where do you expect him to go? Are we expecting him to break contain on every down? Because sometimes that looks about his best option.

 

And about the same going the other way. So why only choose half of that scenario to illiterate on?

 

How would you rate the 2013 offensive line of the Seahawks? I remember time to throw/time to pressure were towards the bottom but I don't subscribe to PFF. I'm not asking Tanny to be Wilson but if our line is indeed that bad, and if the pressure is the same (from the same places) did their OC scheme around it?

 

Boomer is spot on, as usual. Think back to the Jason Taylor days when we routinely beat Brady and Manning. I don't think any Dolphins fans watching those games back then were saying, "Jeez, these QBs suck. I wouldn't want them on my team." I mean, put Brady and Manning on this Dolphins team and what do you think would happen? It'd be ugly.

 

Last year Ryan Tannehill was pressured once every 2.6 times he dropped back to pass, and his QB rating was 92.8, his YPA was 6.9, and his TD to INT ratio was 27 to 12.

This year he's been pressured once every 2.3 times he's dropped back to pass, and his QB rating is 77.1, his YPA is 6.3, and his TD to INT ratio is 7 to 5 (which extrapolates to 28 to 20 on the season).

He's been pressured 0.3 more times per pass dropback in 2015 than he was in 2014, yet his passing measurables have plummeted.

What that suggests is that there is little if any relationship between the frequency with which Ryan Tannehill is pressured and his performance in the passing game. A mere 0.3 more pressures per pass dropback comes nowhere near explaining that degree of a difference in passing performance.

 

Tannehill often backs into the rush. He just keeps backing up instead of stepping up into the pocket. That is what irritates me the most about him. That and he just doesn't attack and plays within a 20 yard box which allows offenses to play within that box too.

 

Oh and I agree Loren is not that hot. I've seen many better. I keep wanting to think she is, but just doesn't work for me. I have nothing against her look, ive seen many that have that same look that are hotter.

 

Well that's not the debate. No one ever said she was the hottest woman alive.

 

I think I've heard this exact song before....

 

There are times where a free rusher gets to Tannehill and a sack is virtually inevitable. That is a protection issue.

But are you implying that is happening on every single snap? If that were true he'd be getting sacked 15 or 20 times a game.

You seem to want to isolate the broken plays and end the conversation there. No question the line is bad.

But the line is not the topic of debate.

 

He's actually getting sacked less often this year than last year, and less often when pressured this year than last year. In other words, he's doing a better job of avoiding pressure when it occurs, yet his passing measurables, again, have plummeted.

Again, all of this suggests a rather weak relationship between the pressure he experiences and his performance in the passing game. Obviously there are other, more influential variables at play that account for his passing performance.

 

The line SHOULD be the discussion. If Tannehill ends up not reaching his full potential, it's likely the main cause will be the abortion of a line he's had.

Frankly, you'd see far more sacks of Tannehill if he refused to throw the short pass in favor of trying to buy enough time for more intermediate or deep routes to develop.

 

The whole team has sucked for the 4 games this year. That's why the coach was fired.

 

I don't know...it just seems weird to me that after 52 games in the NFL we still have people unwilling to offer their honest opinion of Tannehill's pros and cons

It seems that after 52 we should be able to account for outside influences well enough to have an open discussion about Tannehill and where he needs to get better.

My only point is that we need to move on to that conversation and continue it through next year so we can decide whether or not he's the guy.

 

He's actually attempting deep passes (20+ yards in the air downfield) more often this year than last year (14.6% in 2015 to 9% in 2014), despite the 0.3 increase in the number of times he's been pressured per pass dropback.

Yet, again, his YPA has plummeted, as has his QB rating and TD to INT ratio.

 

And does that include Tannehill, or is he absolved of blame because of what's supposedly going on around him?

 

Umm, if you're given a 10 (which she was) that means there is nobody hotter. 10/10.

I just disagree. To each their own.

 

There needs to be more context though. How many rushers on average, time to pressure, where is the pressure etc.