1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Mel Kiper bashes Tannehill

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by yoge, Oct 8, 2015.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

    1,818
    572
    0
    Dec 23, 2014
    If the sort of pressure applied were significantly worse than last year's, don't you think Tannehill would be getting sacked more often, and more often when pressured?

    He isn't. In fact he's getting sacked less often, and less often when pressured.
     
  2. DOLPHAN1

    DOLPHAN1 Premium Member Luxury Box

    he's throwing the ball away more often this year.. which will also negatively affect passer rating.
     
  3. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

    1,818
    572
    0
    Dec 23, 2014
    While it's true throwaways negatively affect QB rating, Tannehill has thrown the ball away 8 times this year. Twice per game on average.

    Last year he averaged roughly one throwaway a game (15 on the season). If each of half of his throwaways this year had instead been let's say 10-yard completions, his QB rating would be 80.5, still far worse than the 92.8 with which he finished 2014.
     
  4. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    So you're going to ignore my answer to this and your accusation?

    Yup, you fit right in.
     
  5. Rock Sexton

    Rock Sexton Anti-Homer

    2,553
    1,793
    113
    Mar 14, 2015
    Just wanted to say .... you are on point today my friend. Great job! :knucks:
     
    dolphin25 likes this.
  6. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    You misspelled, "blow".
     
    adamprez2003 likes this.
  7. Boomer

    Boomer Premium Member Luxury Box

    22,623
    50,064
    113
    Nov 30, 2007
    Not getting sacked every down of course. But no QB has their pocket collapse quicker and more frequently. None.

    So the line HAS to be the means to the end when it comes to the topic of debate. If the line aren't allowing the QB to throw the ball then how can you quantify his true worth?
     
  8. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,329
    9,874
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    Attempting deep balls, without enough time to set and deliver, seems an exercise in futility.
     
  9. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

    1,385
    560
    113
    Oct 11, 2013
    How do you know that?
     
    dolphin25 likes this.
  10. Boomer

    Boomer Premium Member Luxury Box

    22,623
    50,064
    113
    Nov 30, 2007
    I don't think anyone is denying that there's work to do.

    Here's my honest opinion for what it's worth. I think he's an ascending passer but he's regressed a little this season. However, his performance against the Jaguars showed what he's capable of. He can make all the throws, he's as tough as nails and he's as mobile as almost anyone in the league. His ankle injury - which is far worse than the team let on - meant he was unable to run the past two weeks. He can still be occasionally inaccurate although he's improved significantly in that area and the deep ball inaccuracy thing is one of the most fraudulent stats out there. Can we win with him? Absolutely. But I need to see him carry a few games on his back. Win a tight game down the stretch. Look, he went to Denver last year and our loss had nothing to do with him. He needs to be better in the pocket, he needs to totally win the team over and I personally think he will. But does he need work? Hell yes.

    I don't understand the following:

    * Get him out of the pocket on the move.
    * Use him in the running game (when healthy)
    * Run the hurry up. He's significantly better when the offense plays fast.
    * Allow him more freedom at the LOS in terms of changing the plays.

    I won't lie, I like the kid and want him to succeed. But I'm not so blinded to his ability that I can't see the wood for the trees.
     
    cuchulainn, number21, Bumrush and 3 others like this.
  11. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,329
    9,874
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    Just so everyone is clear, in case they've forgotten, you advocate that the QB makes the line better, not the other way around, correct?
     
  12. Boomer

    Boomer Premium Member Luxury Box

    22,623
    50,064
    113
    Nov 30, 2007
    Because I study the stats.
     
    Fin D and resnor like this.
  13. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

    1,385
    560
    113
    Oct 11, 2013
    LOL. What stat tells you that?
     
    dolphin25 and Tannephins like this.
  14. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    Oh no.
     
    Boik14 and Boomer like this.
  15. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    5,227
    6,527
    113
    Dec 7, 2014

    Both of you make great points. They are in fact though so obvious that everyone agrees on them. Both of you are shouting about a problem that's been widely acknowledged for a couple years now and which has been talked about since the 2007.

    No one is debating that the line needs to play better and that it's it's a major hurdle in the obstacle in the presentation of the offense, the production and development of the QB, etc.

    No one is debating that.

    But we can still have a discussion about the QB that is productive.
     
    Boomer and jdang307 like this.
  16. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    39,159
    21,798
    113
    Nov 29, 2007
    San Diego
    The bold, is what us "critics" have been saying. Fin D, see, Boomer agrees. Don't ever let me see you dispute that again ;) :D

    Win a tight game down the stretch. That's exactly what we've all been saying

    I basically agree with 100% of what you wrote here. I'm just going to quote this every time instead of ratcheting back and forth like we always do. I had such high hopes for the kid I picked him up in all of my fantasy leagues and started him in one of them.

    I had to pick up Carson Palmer instead for that last one.
     
    Boomer likes this.
  17. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    5,227
    6,527
    113
    Dec 7, 2014
    Perfect post. That's all I'm trying to say.

    That is the conversation many of us are trying to have. Why aren't those things happening is the question?
     
  18. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    39,159
    21,798
    113
    Nov 29, 2007
    San Diego
    If Boomer says he's studied the film and the stats, I don't question it. PERIOD. I don't think there is a football mind in all of the websphere I trust more. We may come to different opinions but I don't question his analysis.
     
    Boomer, Sceeto, resnor and 1 other person like this.
  19. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    5,227
    6,527
    113
    Dec 7, 2014

    It's a weird year. I'm winning with Andy Dalton and Derek Carr, lol!
     
  20. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    He has done it. And as Boomer pointed out he's done it but the defense loses the game.

    Also, if one's point is that, but its been bookended by the nonsense that Boomer destroyed, it paints a different picture and solidifies the anti Tannehill narrative that many have been accused of.
     
    Boomer and resnor like this.
  21. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    No.

    The argument's two sides are as follows:

    1. Yes the line sucks but Tannehill does too.
    2. Yes the line sucks and that's hurting Tannehill's production.
     
    number21 and resnor like this.
  22. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    39,159
    21,798
    113
    Nov 29, 2007
    San Diego
    I picked up Derek Carr ...
     
  23. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    5,227
    6,527
    113
    Dec 7, 2014
    I never imagined it but Teddy Ginn is actually threatening Calvin Johnson's value right now. How lame is that?
     
  24. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    39,159
    21,798
    113
    Nov 29, 2007
    San Diego
    #2 is implicit in #1
     
  25. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

    1,818
    572
    0
    Dec 23, 2014
    That doesn't jibe with the data that show Tannehill isn't sacked anywhere near the most often in the league, nor anywhere near the most often in the league when pressured, unless one also possesses the belief that he also plays more elusively when dropping back to pass than any other QB in the league.

    In fact, the frequency with which Ryan Tannehill is sacked when pressured is below the league average. If his pocket collapses quicker and more frequently than that of any other QB, and he isn't one of the most elusive QBs in the league when dropping back to pass, then certainly he'd be getting sacked at a rate above the league average when pressured.
     
  26. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,329
    9,874
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    What sort of productive discussion do you want to have? The "productive discussion" always ends up being anti Tannehill posters ****ting all over Tannehill. All while people are trying to evaluate a QB, while he's dealing with a completely dysfunctional oline and a receiving corp that hasn't been all that great. What the "pro-Tannehill" crowd have been saying is that you can't really evaluate him.
     
  27. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,329
    9,874
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    So one's line can't collapse faster, and you get rid of the ball, avoiding a sack, without running around and being elusive?
     
    Boomer likes this.
  28. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

    11,375
    11,392
    113
    Sep 28, 2015
    Actaully lets be honest....i know its a message board where you can hide behind blanket statements by simply disappearing from a thread, BUT.

    1.) Yea the line is bad but Ryan has not shown enough to merit a pass forgiving him for all responsibility.

    2.) The OL is the difference between Ryan Tannehill and Matt Ryan and Tom Brady...here! Lets even compare some 2014 stat that is supposed to tell us he is aa good as Aaron Rodgers. If Ryan was in Seattle they would never lose!! Its stupid comments like that and uninformed replies by a few that turn a healthy debate into a full fledged f-fest.

    Also, the LUMPING in of everyone who disagrees with you must think (insert dumbass claim) is why a good debate can not be had. Its the root of the problem in regards to lack of solid discussion.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    dolphin25 and Rock Sexton like this.
  29. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

    11,375
    11,392
    113
    Sep 28, 2015
    Lol, when did you guys start saying the last sentence???

    Mostly its 46 reasons apologizing for his play as a whole? I may be wrong, i dont wanna be a Fin D or anything...so if u can show me some evidence of this from you guys Id certainly look at it.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  30. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    No it isn't. When its brought up, its called "excuses".
     
  31. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

    1,818
    572
    0
    Dec 23, 2014
    Like I said, that belief works and jibes with the data if you also believe Tannehill is one of the most elusive QBs in the league when dropping back to pass.

    You don't get pressured more often and more quickly than any other QB, and get sacked at a rate below the league average in general, as well as below the league average when pressured, unless you're exceptionally elusive.

    Now, if you believe Tannehill is exceptionally elusive, then so be it. But I don't.
     
    dolphin25, Rock Sexton and roy_miami like this.
  32. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    Look, if your guy's posts all run together because your narrative, arguments and lack of logic are at most a matter of degrees different, then its not really my fault if you are hard to differentiate. Plus, there's that whole thing where you NEVER admit anything you're called on...but hey, you being a Tannehill fan is like me saying I'm a conservative.....our actions speak the truth.

    And Brady and those guys are brought up to point out the inconsistency in your guys' poor logic. He is compared to Wilson and Luck though.

    And no one says he's absolved of all responsibility, that's yet another stupid example of you guys being...well...stupid.
     
    resnor likes this.
  33. 407PhinFan

    407PhinFan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    1,542
    2,357
    113
    Oct 20, 2011
    Last year, we averaged 120~ yards on the ground, EVERY game.

    This year, we average 69.9 yards per game. That's the 31st ranking rushing attack in the NFL, for those who are keeping score.

    It's almost like our line is worse, and our running game is non-existent, resulting in Tannehill passing far more frequently than he should have to! The pass has NOT set up the run for us.

    We have also been playing from behind most games. Were we outscored 37-3 in the first quarter last year per every four games? When you play from behind, you pass a LOT, and usually that leads to... let's see, a worse completion %, and more throws into coverage since they know it's a passing down. Do you think opposing defenses knowing to key in on the pass virtually every down would have a positive effect on Tannehill?

    Oh, and by the way.. His 5 interceptions have been against two of the toughest defenses in football. One of them came from Landry popping a ball that hit his hands into the air for a defender to intercept, so if we don't count that against him in our extrapolation, we get our QB on pace to throw for 4200 yds, 28 TDs, and 17 interceptions. Not exactly a scrub.

    The guy has been injured as well.
     
  34. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

    1,818
    572
    0
    Dec 23, 2014
    As I said above, there are obviously variables other than pressure that are far more influential in his performance.
     
  35. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    lol.
     
  36. 407PhinFan

    407PhinFan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    1,542
    2,357
    113
    Oct 20, 2011

    There are a few stats out there that tell you that, genius.

    Like, um, AVERAGE TIME UNTIL THROW, TIME TO PRESSURE, both of these are quantifiable and on PFF, as well as other websites.

    You do know there's more stats to football than TD/INT ratio and QBR, right? People watch games to time every play, from snap to throw. They watch games to time every play, from snap to pocket collapse.
     
    Boomer likes this.
  37. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

    1,818
    572
    0
    Dec 23, 2014
    There is no "time to pressure" stat.

    Tannehill is getting sacked 0.35 seconds more quickly on average this year than last. When you consider the probable standard error of that measurement (i.e., human variation in how quickly one pushes a stopwatch button, or whether it's even the same human doing it between this year and last), I'm not sure much meaning should be associated with it.
     
    Rock Sexton likes this.
  38. 407PhinFan

    407PhinFan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    1,542
    2,357
    113
    Oct 20, 2011
    Right, I'm just wondering why you refuse to account for them.

    What is his QBR if he throws for 4200 yds, 28 TDs, 17 INTs at 58% completion, 6.3 yp/a? I'm guessing it's a lot closer to 92 than 77.
     
  39. 407PhinFan

    407PhinFan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    1,542
    2,357
    113
    Oct 20, 2011
    You're right. I meant time until sack.
     
  40. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

    1,818
    572
    0
    Dec 23, 2014
    I don't refuse to account for them. I'm simply discounting pressure as one of them.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page