1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Mel Kiper bashes Tannehill

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by yoge, Oct 8, 2015.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    39,159
    21,798
    113
    Nov 29, 2007
    San Diego
    Lumping in Dolphingreg's post with the first two is nonsense. He makes the very arguments you say are reasonable, but lump them in to the other camp. Fin O is exactly correct about you here.

     
    DolphinGreg likes this.
  2. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    111,651
    67,543
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    stop making things personal, you gotta problem with the comment then tell the man who wrote it...no need to take shots that way..jmo.
     
  3. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    111,651
    67,543
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    yeah I guess I have a real problem with an athletic qb who doesnt know when to tuck and run for a conversion..and a real problem with a coordinator who doesnt move the athletic qb who can throw on the run to both sides...its about the dumbest thing ive seen if football, both of them.
     
    DOLPHAN1 likes this.
  4. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

    2,547
    600
    113
    Dec 14, 2014
    Everybody knows the OL and running game impacts QB play. The issue is Tannehill has no rewarding qualities to offset his issues. He can't diagnose a defense well enough to punish their scheme. He can't audible like Manning can. He can't diagnose a defense like Brady can and has nowhere near the mechanics he has. He doesn't have the evasiveness or deep bomb Vick used to have. He's not great at anything. You make it seem like no matter what the scenario is, Tannehill is helpless. Only losers make excuses. Only losers pretend like they're defeated once they show up. Every single QB could benefit off of a better OL and running game. How about Tannehill diagnosed a blitz and runs a screen play? How about he develops mechanics to maneuver in the pocket? The pocket doesn't break down every single play. Use some statistics before you make that claim. How about he runs some read option since he used to be a WR? How about he hits some deep balls when he can?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  5. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

    2,547
    600
    113
    Dec 14, 2014
    It's ridiculous that this post has way less likes than the other argument. I get it, we've got a lot of blind homers, but come on guys. Know what you're looking at.

    Tannehill's original GM, HC, OC and DC have already been fired. Now his second OC and HC may be let go as well. We've already seen a lot of turnover and it's mostly Ross's fault but you're going to continue to see OL and WRs and the like continue to be on their way out. Expect turnover. Tannehill needs a super stacked team like Wilson had to look good.

    The OP of the argument somehow tried to diminish Brady as a QB. Idk how that's possible considering how much he's won across different eras with so many different teams. That's a franchise QB. Tannehill will never get there and that's okay but stop with the comparisons.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  6. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

    2,547
    600
    113
    Dec 14, 2014
    This just goes to show that when you make excuses about the OL, the WRs, the RBs, the OC, the, the HC, whoever, you're just making excuses. More and more excuses. Some or all are legitimate to an extent but nothing is perfect. At the end of the day the issues all lead back to how much Tannehill can help himself despite his circumstances. Any QB, even backups, can excel with the right team. Trent Dilfer is a Super Bowl champion. Look up a list of the worst Super Bowl champion QBs. So please tell me, how much help does he need?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  7. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

    2,148
    1,398
    113
    May 3, 2010
    Absolutely no way in hell can a QB throw over 400 TD passes, win 4 Super Bowls, makes it to 6, play in 241 games and be the all-time leader in postseason victories without outstanding pocket presence. Pocket presence is one of the skills that has separated Brady from his peers. Brady is one of the best all-time at knowing where the pressure is coming from and sliding in the pocket to buy time and space to throw. Given that he can't run worth a darn he is not going to take off with the ball often, so he's smart enough to know how to get down to not take a big hit when the play is simply not there. That may look to some like he doesn't have pocket presence, but in fact, for him to know when it is time to get down to avoid the big hit is also a form of pocket presence.

    I think I'll side with Rodgers on this one...

    Read more at: http://nesn.com/2014/11/aaron-rodgers-tom-brady-one-of-my-favorite-guys-to-watch-on-film/
    “I studied him in 2007, a lot in the offseason in ’06 when I was a backup,” Rodgers told New England media in a conference call Wednesday. “… I was a fan in high school. I don’t think he’s that much older than me. I don’t want to date him too much but always been one of my favorite guys to watch on film. If we have a common opponent I always enjoy putting on film when he played them to see what he did against them.” So what does Brady do best? According to Rodgers, pretty much everything. “He’s got great pocket presence, he’s very accurate,” he added. “He’s really good with his eye control. He does a lot of things at the line of scrimmage.”

    http://content.usatoday.com/communi...among-current-nfl-quarterbacks/1#.ViCIGvmrRhE

    Said Rodgers:
    "No order except for Tom being the best. He does things that other guys can't do. His pocket presence is better than those guys by far. He throws a better ball than just about all those guys. He's a winner – better than all those guys."

     
    djphinfan likes this.
  8. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

    2,547
    600
    113
    Dec 14, 2014
    Something tells me Rodgers hasn't had to fight from behind very much, which makes that statistic even more impressive.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  9. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,329
    9,874
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    Same to you, dude. Emo made the comment, I simply agreed with him, that I get the same vibe. Again though, you ignore emo, but put me on blast.

    And I've told Tannephins before who he sounds like.
     
  10. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,329
    9,874
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    I should have cut out the part that I thought applied. That part being, that Greg consistently wants to not discuss the oline/receivers, only the QB. But you can't do that.
     
    Fin D likes this.
  11. Boomer

    Boomer Premium Member Luxury Box

    22,623
    50,064
    113
    Nov 30, 2007
    The stats where you sit with Gamepass and All 22 tape and time pocket collapsing pressure for hours and hours and hours and hours as part of a service you provide. Those stats.

    LOL that.
     
    DOLPHAN1, DevilFin13, Boik14 and 4 others like this.
  12. Boomer

    Boomer Premium Member Luxury Box

    22,623
    50,064
    113
    Nov 30, 2007
    Cause and effect my friend. Is Ryan being the best passer he can be CONSISTENTLY? Answer: no.

    Is his ability to BE the best passer he can be, helped by those circumstances that we talk about? Answer: no.
     
    cuchulainn, DOLPHAN1, resnor and 3 others like this.
  13. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    5,227
    6,527
    113
    Dec 7, 2014

    Dude, Res, I like you but cmon. I have been a huge Tannehill apologist at times. I'd just like to move past this roadblock.

    At some point we are going to have to evaluate Tannehill, saying either yes or no to him as the QB. According to me, we need to start doing that now so that by the end of 2017 we can feel confident about our opinions.

    By your line of thinking, and even you should see this, we will never be able to evaluate Tannehill. There is no practical use for what you're doing.

    I'm as reasonable as anyone when it comes to Tannehill. When you're citing me as someone who's a problem, you've both misunderstood my true intentions which are to constructively move this conversation forward as well as become too sensitive about this issue.
     
  14. Boomer

    Boomer Premium Member Luxury Box

    22,623
    50,064
    113
    Nov 30, 2007
    What's interesting about Ginn is that if he'd been a third round pick instead of a fairly disappointing 9th overall pick, the narrative around his career would be one of "what a terrific pick he was". Interesting how his career has worked out.
     
    Boik14, resnor and DolphinGreg like this.
  15. Boomer

    Boomer Premium Member Luxury Box

    22,623
    50,064
    113
    Nov 30, 2007
    But the "data" which I assume you're quoting is that of PFF which, when you study how they work out what pressure actually is, makes their stats null and void compared to how we would analyse pressure. I'm VERY comfortable saying what I've said around the amount of pressure he feels. The fact that he's sacked less than he's pressured frankly means nothing. A sack is a usable statistic. A pressure not so much. Nor a hit when he releases the ball. Again, I'm very comfortable with the stats around it. Very.
     
    DOLPHAN1, Fin D and resnor like this.
  16. Boomer

    Boomer Premium Member Luxury Box

    22,623
    50,064
    113
    Nov 30, 2007
    Total misnomer and you're essentially equating the stats totally incorrectly.
     
    Fin D and resnor like this.
  17. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    5,227
    6,527
    113
    Dec 7, 2014
    Oh man, let me count the times I'm been chastised for saying that!

    Anyhow, I'd be very interested in hearing some of the ways you think Tannehill could improve as a passer and if you think it's reasonable he may do it in the next few years.

    Having been through so much over the last 5 years, I almost wonder if he's possibly a little burnt out. I'm sure it's hard to stay focused when there's never an easy day.
     
  18. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

    1,818
    572
    0
    Dec 23, 2014
    I'd be very interested in seeing them. If you would, please provide those statistics as well as the same ones for the rest of the teams in the league for the 2014 and 2015 seasons.
     
  19. Boomer

    Boomer Premium Member Luxury Box

    22,623
    50,064
    113
    Nov 30, 2007
    OK.
     
    resnor likes this.
  20. Boomer

    Boomer Premium Member Luxury Box

    22,623
    50,064
    113
    Nov 30, 2007
    Shall I come round and do your ironing for you too?

    Unfortunately they're for media organisations who pay for the data. But happy to send them through once your cheque clears.
     
    Boik14, resnor and Fin D like this.
  21. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

    1,818
    572
    0
    Dec 23, 2014
    I'm sorry if I've offended you. I was merely wanting to analyze the data along with you.

    I'd be happy to send the money via Paypal. Would that work? I'm being serious.
     
  22. Boomer

    Boomer Premium Member Luxury Box

    22,623
    50,064
    113
    Nov 30, 2007
    It's true though. It really is. His career has been generally very solid with flashes of excellence. He's found a niche in Carolina and most importantly a system which suits his style of play. The NFL is about systems. Systems make the players not the other way round. He found his perfect landing spot.

    I think with Ryan all too often what happens is that he's taken away from the things that he does best. Perhaps it's exacerbated this season by the fact that we're always chasing the game. But as I mentioned in the post about being honest about his failings, if you're going to invest 100 million dollars in someone, then tailor the offense to what works for HIM. And what works for him is up tempo, out of the pocket, mixing the read option, timing throws. He can do it. He absolutely can make every throw in the book and I've seen him make throws that if Rodgers or Brady or Romo had made then they'd have their own show on NFLN.

    I was in the locker room after the game and my girlfriend sat down and did the TV interview with him pre-game and he is into this. He cares. He knows it takes and post game against the Jets he was seriously pissed off. Seriously.

    I think he will get there. But he DOES need to elevate his game the way most of us believe he can. Listen, I've seen every single throw he's made since he started at A+M. Every single one. He has the talent but he needs the system and the team around him to help elevate the offense. I don't know that he can do it alone. Very few can.
     
    DOLPHAN1, Rex Deus, number21 and 2 others like this.
  23. Boomer

    Boomer Premium Member Luxury Box

    22,623
    50,064
    113
    Nov 30, 2007
    Not offending at all my man. And apologies if it came across that way.

    It's $495. And I don't - genuinely - have a paypal account!
     
    resnor likes this.
  24. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

    1,818
    572
    0
    Dec 23, 2014
    I wish I could afford that. Unfortunately it looks like we won't be privy here to the information you're going on.
     
    Boomer likes this.
  25. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

    1,385
    560
    113
    Oct 11, 2013
    What other QB has been wrecked for 4 seasons by the worst o-line in the league and went on to become great? Surely there are other examples of this phenomenon.

    Did he have the worst o-line in college as well?
     
  26. Boomer

    Boomer Premium Member Luxury Box

    22,623
    50,064
    113
    Nov 30, 2007
    No idea.

    And no, he had a good OL in college, which is why he was the 8th overall pick despite starting only 18 games under center.
     
    resnor and Fin D like this.
  27. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    39,159
    21,798
    113
    Nov 29, 2007
    San Diego


    Then you're completely missing his point. Like completely. We've already discussed the oline and receivers. For the oline, we know it's bad. So what's the use arguing it again and again. Greg's point is, knowing the oline is bad, evaluation Tanny. In law you'd call it a stipulation. Both sides accept it as fact. Now evaluate Tanny, notwithstanding the bad line. that's his point.
     
    dolphin25 likes this.
  28. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    39,159
    21,798
    113
    Nov 29, 2007
    San Diego
    Damn, djphinfan's calling card in bold.
     
  29. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    39,159
    21,798
    113
    Nov 29, 2007
    San Diego
    You watch a lot more film than me, and rosters change in the NFL quickly. I've looked at some film, but not a lot. Does the low ypa/completion % bother you at all? They've been quite consistent through college and the pros now. ~60%/7.0 ypa. Last year shrunk the field, got into the 66's but still low ypa.

    Or do you not assign a whole lot to ypa? I read somewhere Lazor is a huge proponent of that statistic.

    Or is Manziel just that good (or Mike Evans) when he came in and the blew the ypa out of the door. Tannehill's predecessor had a low one as well.
     
  30. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    You can't though.

    How can you evaluate him when he has no time to throw, no lanes to escape into, no running game to help him, and at the time a coaching staff everyone believes to be bad?
     
    resnor likes this.
  31. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

    1,818
    572
    0
    Dec 23, 2014
    We actually don't. And even if we did know it's bad, we wouldn't know why it's bad. It's entirely possible that the offensive line could be appearing to be bad because of Tannehill.

    Once again, imagine putting me out there at running back in the NFL. How bad would the offensive line look run blocking for me? Would we come to the conclusion that the offensive line is terrible at run blocking, or would we come to the conclusion that I'm a terrible running back who would make any offensive line look bad?

    How can anyone here really distinguish with any reliability how much blame to attribute to Tannehill versus the offensive line, in terms of what we're seeing out there? What we're seeing tells us nothing reliable about what's causing it.

    It's entirely possible for example that Tannehill's limited ability to escape pressure and limited accuracy downfield allows opposing defenses to play in such a way that the Dolphins' offensive line is compromised in doing its job. Do we know?

    Everyone would like to believe that Tannehill is a mere "X" away from being great, and that seems to be creating a philosophical position that "X" is to blame, and Tannehill isn't, when in reality none of us, myself included, knows exactly how much blame to attribute to Tannehill versus "X."
     
    dolphin25 likes this.
  32. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    Easily the dumbest post I've read in this thread. If the line is doing their job, the pressure would be minimal regardless of Tannehill's escapability.

    Your Tannehill hate has reached absurd effing levels.

    I fully expect posters like Fin-O and JD to call you out for this ridiculousness (that they claim doesn't exist).
     
    DOLPHAN1 and resnor like this.
  33. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,329
    9,874
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    No, you've complatelet missed the point. The only time the oline really is discussed is when some of us bring it up when people complain about poor pocket presence, or to many short throws, or supposed deep ball inaccuracy. Then we get accused of "making excuses." You can't simply say, "Yeah, the oline is terrible, but we should evaluate Tannehill without considering just how much negative impact they have on Tannehill and the offense as a whole."

    Or you could take Tannephins approach, and claim that QBs are unaffected by the oline, but great QBs make olines great. Which makes me wonder why anyone would even bother drafting an olineman.
     
  34. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,329
    9,874
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    Depends, are you being hit 3 yards in the backfield everytime? Or, are you making it to the line, and getting no farther?
     
  35. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    5,227
    6,527
    113
    Dec 7, 2014
    So the next question would be, why isn't the team building an offense that features Ryan in those ways?

    I pride myself in never assuming someone is an idiot. I'm sure Bill Lazer understands everything you just said. If that's the case, why don't we see more up-tempo drives--particularly when those drives tend to have been the more successful ones.

    That's the stuff that leads a lot of us to read between the lines. Either the play caller and coordinator has no clue (which is not likely) or there is something in the way of it happening.

    Is Ryan not smart enough or does he not understand enough about reading defenses may? Maybe other players don't understand the plays and can't operate as fast as he can call plays?

    This is where lack of knowledge really kills us fans who just genuinely want to understand the problem.
     
  36. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,329
    9,874
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    Lazor has said that Tannehill reads and reacts as well or better than other QBs he's worked with. Since uptempo drives have worked well for us, it makes zero sense why he doesn't run it more.
     
    DOLPHAN1 likes this.
  37. Tannephins

    Tannephins Banned

    1,818
    572
    0
    Dec 23, 2014
    Surprised I didn't think of this before -- perhaps you could point us toward a media organization that's used the data so we can see it in print online somewhere?
     
  38. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

    2,547
    600
    113
    Dec 14, 2014
    That's laughable. You haven't said anything worth a penny. You just made a bunch of excuses. Tannephins has cited way more statistics than you have. You completely ignored my post.

    You're not giving statistics or a comeback because you don't have them. Are you telling me the info you have is that much more valuable than what PFF gives its subscribers?

    It's sad when you try to trick posters into thinking you're more important than you really are. "If you don't know who I am, ask around." LOL


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    dolphin25 likes this.
  39. CashInFist

    CashInFist Well-Known Member

    10,069
    2,624
    113
    Nov 30, 2007
    West Virginia
    Boomer is very well respected here and in many NFL circles outside of this message board. I don't happen to agree with him on the Ryan Tannehill issue, but you may want do a little research before you go bashing someone you know nothing about.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    DOLPHAN1, djphinfan, Fin D and 5 others like this.
  40. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    45,652
    19,304
    113
    Dec 3, 2007
    Windsor, ON. CANADA
    Uh... you really can't do that. It's impossible to evaluate him not taking the terrible OL into consideration, because we haven't see him play at this level without a bad OL. It changes everything. EVERYTHING.
     
    resnor likes this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page