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Is Ryan Tannehill the long term solution at QB?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Chuck Wilson, Nov 1, 2015.

Is Ryan Tannehill the long term answer at QB for us?

  1. Yes

    44 vote(s)
    40.7%
  2. No

    39 vote(s)
    36.1%
  3. Not quite sure, need to see more

    25 vote(s)
    23.1%
  1. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Because you see him go through progressions, although you guys say he doesn't. You see better touch on his passes. He pretty consistently makes good decisions.

    He needs to be more decisive in pulling the ball down and running, but, again, I think that's a coaching issue.
     
  2. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

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    So just the eye test. If you don't like stats just say you don't believe in stats and move on. 99% of regular people do believe in stats to a certain degree. And most of us will continue to discuss stats so you should try to ignore those discussions.

    Though I have a suspicion that you like the passer rating improvements even though you won't admit it.
     
  3. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Well, a lot of it is the eye test. I have a huge problem with people depending on stats to tell the story. When Tannehill had Hartline, Bess, and Nanee, how good do you think his stats were going to be? When Tannehill has guys wide open, dropping easy balls, how are you holding that against him, like the beginning of last season?
     
  4. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

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    Deflect and ignore. Forget about the OL now right because the stats don't fit into your agenda. Forget the QBs that perform better with similar or worse OLs.

    If you wanna talk WRs, let's talk Newton and Wilson. Heck, Brady over most of his career. Who does McCown have now?


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  5. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    The Pats are 9th in dropped pass %, the Fins are 16th...

    Next...
     
  6. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Where did I say anything about this season???

    You guys literally go around trying to play Gotcha with everyone. I said LAST season Tannehill had receivers leading the league in drops for the first 4 games or so. I've said that the BIGGEST problem that Tannehill faces currently is his oline.
     
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  7. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    It's a very fair post, Ronin. Thanks for the response. We just don't agree and that's cool.

    He didn't have as many games playing QB as Wilson or Luck, sure, but Luck left a year early. Cam Newton played for 1 season at Auburn? I mean there are varying circumstances all over the place. I just don't see hanging the hat he played 19 games as QB in college almost 5 years ago as a reason on why he still hasn't taken the next step today.

    The coaching has sucked from an overall perspective. However, you can't deny that he hasn't improved every year. And that isn't my issue with Tannehill. He's an improved player, but the winning trait is what hasn't befallen him. You can get the best TD:INT ratio as possible and throw for all the yards in the world, but if you can't come up big when your team needs you, then it's all for naught. And that's my major sticking point with him.

    I think Hue Jackson would be a great fit for Tannehill and this team. If Campbell doesn't work out (and boy do I want him to!), then I would be right there with you banging the drum for Jackson.

    But...what if the running game isn't as good next year? What about the defense? What if we finally get hit with the injury bug? Things that happen over the course of a season when you play in the league over a period of time. They're more built-in excuses for Tannehill.

    This really is the same argument we all have up here for Jay Cutler by the way...

    My point is, throughout the course of 4-5 years in the NFL, things WILL happen. Your OL may suck one year. Your running game may go bye bye. You may accrue a big injury or two. Your defense may just suck at points in time within the year or for half of it. That will happen over the course of 4-5 years. The difference between Ryan Tannehill and other is that other QBs find a way to still win the game. Maybe their defense wins it, but maybe they didn't turn the ball over? Maybe their WRs just play out of their mind, but maybe they found ways to get them the ball? Maybe their running game just dominates, but maybe they utilize it to their benefit. Maybe the coaching isn't so great and goes away from the pass or run, etc. but they pull out a 2 min win.

    Like those are things that QBs who go to the playoffs most years, do. Our guy hasn't shown the penchant for doing that in his first 4 years. However, we immediately point to every other reason.

    And yes, they are issues, problems, and reasons for losing. But, when does a season go so perfect where everything clicks? It doesn't. We will have some of those and make the playoffs with Tannehill. But, I want a QB that doesn't need everything to go right to win. That guy doesn't have to Brady, Rodgers, Manning, etc. He can be Andy Dalton. He can be Phil Rivers. He can be Carson Palmer. He can be Joe Flacco. Can't we get that guy? Do we have that guy?
     
  8. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I keep asking, do you want me to go through KC, SF, and Tennessee? The argument started with people talking win/loss as evidence of good QBs. Now it's morphed into people arguing that QBs with worse olines are doing better than Tannehill. I wouldn't say that Bridgewater, or McCown, or Taylor are really doing anything more than Tannehill. Mariota could be argued to be doing slightly better, but we've been arguing that other parts of the team help QBs. It's not ALWAYS the oline. Yes, for Tannehill, I believe the oline is his biggest issue. Of the 6 with worse blocking than Tannehill, Wilson is still successful due to an elite escapability, that Tannehill will never have. Mariota does have a better rating, but I haven't really watched their games, so I can't speak to a whole lot for him.
     
  9. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Bills defense is far from great. It's garbage actually.
    And when Tyrod Taylor starts, the Bills are 3-2.

    Teddy Bridgewater currently has the Vikings at 5-2. I could care less if he's thrown 6 TDs. He led the team to score 10 pts in the final 5 minutes against the Bears this weekend for a win.

    I agree with you (at least I think you've been arguing for this) that a W/L record shouldn't characterize whether a QB is good or not. However, you have to include it right?

    Generally speaking. and there have been 2 cases brought to my attention, if a QB doesn't make the playoffs in his first 4 years he isn't a franchise QB.

    The cases? Dan Fouts who took 6 years to get there (and the NFL was COMPLETELY different at that time). Drew Brees took 3.5 years of starting before getting his team to the playoffs. So again, franchise QBs aren't losers. They elevate their team and win when sometimes their team's shouldn't.
     
  10. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Also, just looking at those stats, I think the better comparison would be around looking at the team's who have around the same percentage.

    Pitt, NE, Miami, MIN, CLE.

    Cleveland has the worst record, but they also have the worst run blocking rate by far. Josh McCown has also put up better numbers than Ryan Tannehill has - with 1 less win and much harder schedule. But, I would much rather have the W, than the stats.

    All the other team's have more wins and better QB play.

    Again not saying I want Josh McCown, but looking at those team's whose pass blocking rates are close, you think we should be seeing better QB play.
     
  11. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    tje college thing is only used to discount the first two years in the pros when he was learning the position. If you're going to use stats then you start last year and this year. Second tannehill doesn't need things to go perfect he just cant be saddled with crap. When your offensive line is ranked 32nd in pressures or close to it, its not too much to ask to be upgraded to 16th or even 20th. And he's already proven he's the guy when given just the littlest bit of time. Several games over the last two years bear that out. He has an NFL record for gods sake already. Even though people poo poo it ,the fact remains he did something no one else has done.
     
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  12. dWreck

    dWreck formerly dcaf

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    I love threads like this. Always comedy gold.

    Some people need to learn that 'Franchise QB' is not synonymous with 'Hall of Famer' or 'best in the league', etc. Even if you want it to be, it's not. The standards people here have for QB are as hilarious as they are lazy.

    I also love how Dalton always comes up. Did a lot last year too, you know, when the bengals had the BEST O LINE in football for a good part of the season And yet Tannehill still out performed him. Which posed my favorite question that was always conveniently ignored: How is it that Tannehill played significantly better than Dalton through all of last season, yet Dalton made it to the playoffs (where he choked miserably like he always does) and Tannehill didn't? Anyone??? Bueller?? Is it maybe because there are players on the team other than QB that contribute to going to the playoffs and general team success? Not trying to sound too crazy here.

    "Dalton" and his 19/17 3300 stat line didnt make the playoffs. Nor did he "take his team" there. "The Bengals" went to the playoffs where Dalton always seems to fail, yet, he is their franchise QB.
     
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  13. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    I truly believe some people in this forum would make a trade straight up, Tannehill for Trent Dilfer if they could.
     
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  14. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    What is your definition of franchise QB?

    Mine is a QB that consistently has you make and/or compete for the playoffs. The key is that you make the playoffs more than you miss. That's all. So Andy Dalton is a franchise QB. Jay Cutler is not a franchise QB. He doesn't have to elite and doesn't have to have great stats, he just needs to have the ability to lead his team to the playoffs consistently.

    When you do that, good statistical seasons will happen, especially in today's NFL the last 10 years.

    I love this part "had the BEST O LINE in foot ball for, wait here it is, good part of the season" Maybe you said that because this was said about the Bengals O-Line last year.

    And what that sentence means? That Dalton didn't play some of the season with the best OL? What about AJ Green playing hurt half the year? What about Tyler Eifert missing 15 games?

    We can crap on Dalton all we want, but he's never missed the playoffs and he's quarterbacking one of the best team's in the league. But, we will continue to punch holes in that all day long while we continue to make excuses on why ours isn't and if they swapped places, yadda yadda yadda.

    I don't want this to be a Dalton vs Tannehill argument. I like Tannehill and personally would prefer his upside over Dalton. But, I'd sure as hell take Dalton's production over Tannehill's. And it's not like we're the 2012 Miami Dolphins starving for playmakers.

    You act like Ryan Tannehill has come up big in so many games - at Buffalo in 2013? home against NYJ in 2013? Both opportunities to make the playoffs.
    Home against Baltimore Ravens in 2014? Didn't come up big there either. Home against NYJ in 2014? Didn't come up big there either.

    It really is the same old argument.

    "It's a team game and not just one person" vs. "it's always something".

    I just know this. We haven't gone to the playoffs in 3 years with the guy and we're on our way to a 4th. That's undebatable. At some point, it can't continue to be the coaching, or that he wasn't a full time QB in college, or the defense giving up leads, or the offensive line.

    Again, over the course of time there will ALWAYS be something that isn't perfect. You expect your QB to cover up some of those holes.
     
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  15. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I haven't read the arguments of all 39 pages, but I don't think they would.

    For me, I'm just saying to completely discount wins/losses, or more importantly, playoff appearances of a QB is just blindly evaluating what makes competitors and athletes great. And that is making the plays you need to in the moments you need to.

    It's absolutely a team game, but as a QB you have a direct impact on the game to change the outcomes of games.

    I think Tannehill is the solution, because he's better than anything we've had for years! Plus, he's tough as nails. However, he needs to start winning games that matter - starting with Sunday.
     
  16. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    But he wasn't learning the position. He knew the position. I will agree that he was learning to play the position at a much higher level, but it wasn't like he had to be taught to take a snap, take a drop, understand route concepts, etc. He knew those things.

    Discount his first 2 years? That's the most absurd thing I've ever heard. And maybe you just might have used the wrong wording. I assume you mean that he should be given a pass or that there should be some understanding that he was learning the nuances? If that's the case, then I can agree with that. I think that's fair.

    What Tannehill has shown is that when everything is perfect he is good. Plenty of QBs have shown that. So, when he has time and a nice pocket he can set records. Great. I hope like hell that is always the case.

    The problem? It's not...especially when you play division games that know your weaknesses and you continually falter. His record within the division is SO bad. SO SO very bad, with poor performances that cost us playoff opportunities.

    When we play good team's, he struggles there too. You're going to have pressure. Your defense is going to give up leads. Your OL will have night's where it struggles at times. You still need to find ways to move the chains and score points, or do it when it matters the most. Some times things going incredibly poor and you get 1-2 opportunities. You have to make them count.
     
  17. emocomputerjock

    emocomputerjock Senior Member

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    What can Tannehill do that Trent can't?

    /blastfromthepast
     
  18. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Because most of the time it should be easy once you have the QB to fill in everything else. But without the QB you are nowhere. I'm still a believer in Tannehill being a good, not elite qb.
     
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  19. dWreck

    dWreck formerly dcaf

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    I linked more than enough articles last year supporting the bengals o line was extremely good up to a certain point. These wheels were spun endlessly and I'm not gunna waste time finding anything else about it. They collapsed? Neat. Also irrelevant to my point because I didnt say best in the NFL at the end of the season, just implied it was EASILY better than our line and it was considered the best for a while by people more knowledgeable than me or you.

    Your definition of a franchise QB is a flawed opinion and nothing more. "Franchise QB" and playoffs are not mutually exclusive. My personal definition is irrelevant and would be no different than a common sense approach to the 2 words that make the phrase... Franchise QB....A good qb who is a long term face of a franchise. Notice we didn't say 'Probowl QB' or 'perennial playoff QB' or 'superbowl mvp QB'? Yeah. Now that we have cleared that up... Again, I'd just like to know why Dalton made the playoffs last year and Tannehill did not (while playing worse than Tannehill, on average and as a whole)? Why? If a "franchise qb" is supposed to carry a team to the playoffs how did it happen for Cinci lasy year? Because it definitely wasn't because of Dalton.

    Also, I think sentences like "Andy Dalton has made the playoffs every year" are cute considering they are conveniently missing the next part which is "...and failed pretty miserably near every time". Didnt he throw like 4 picks or something in their playoff game last year?

    I'll give you a hint "the same old argument" exists for a reason. The Bengals made the playoffs the same reason the phins didn't.
     
  20. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    We all are.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  21. dWreck

    dWreck formerly dcaf

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    No. Not everyone here agrees with that at all, And you know that.
     
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  22. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    But again, you keep using broad terms like "good". What is good? There has to be some measurement of the term good. For me it's success both on the stat sheet and the win column.

    And if a franchise QB is just the face of the franchise, then I'm just incorrectly using the term. For me, I want my guy to be more than that.

    Again, we'll just have to agree to disagree on Andy Dalton. It's also "cute" how you're completely discounting the fact he's an MVP candidate this year.

    Also, a question to post here...Does anything think it's possible that the play of your QB, and the success of your QB, can leak to other players, position groups, etc? Like maybe it's not coincidence that other units look much better or have better numbers because the QB plays well? Just a thought.
     
  23. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I voted yes, but I'm a doubter for sure. Skepticism is there.
     
  24. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    With a 2nd year buyout.
     
  25. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Contract is designed so we can get out with minimal cap hit after 2016. So.. does that mean "thread over" till end of 2016? :wink2:

    Judging by past experience, thread will be over for.. hmm.. 2 more minutes??
     
  26. dWreck

    dWreck formerly dcaf

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    You can remove the word good from my answer then if it makes you feel better, because, technically speaking, a franchise QB doesnt 'have to' be anyones definition of 'good'. And yes, Your fabricated definition of the phrase is not fact and seems more media/fan/bias driven than anything else. A franchise qb is literally just that. And thats it.

    I discounted it??? When does he get his halfway-through-the-season MVP trophy again? If history tells us anything it's that Dalton can play like a hall of famer all season, yet come playoff time he will be the same Dalton he is every year in the playoffs. As someone who is so blatantly obsessed with playoffs being a milestone for a franchise QB, how about you look at his post season stats then come back to me before flexing for him.

    So, should I ask my question a third time or are you just not going to answer?

    Again, I'd just like to know why Dalton made the playoffs last year and Tannehill did not (while playing worse than Tannehill, on average and as a whole)? Why?
     
  27. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

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    What does that have to do with anything? Is Jay Cutler is a "franchise QB?" I don't care what label you put on Tannehill, for me he is part of the problem. And unless he shows major improvement next season we need to get the hell out of dodge on that contract extension.
     
  28. dWreck

    dWreck formerly dcaf

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    For you, he might be. For the Dolphins, he isn't. That's why (thankfully) you don't call the shots and he has the contract he does.

    "What does that have to do with anything?"? This entire thread is littered with people fabricating what they think Franchise QB actually means, or atleast just giving their 'opinion' on what it means 'to them' and presenting it as fact.
     
  29. dWreck

    dWreck formerly dcaf

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    Lmao. You got it brotha.
     
  30. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    First, why does everyone in this place get their panties in a wad when someone has a difference of a opinion or has a stance?
    Wow.

    Here's a start to answer your question.
    http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/comeback.cgi?player=DaltAn00

    Dalton with 4 GW drives last year.

    http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/comeback.cgi?player=TannRy00

    Tannehill with 2 GW drives last year.

    And if you care about this year for any reference - Dalton has 3 and Tannehill 1, but Pro Football Reference is considering the Washington game as a win...which we know isn't.
     
  31. Rock Sexton

    Rock Sexton Anti-Homer

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    The contract screams "faith" doesn't it? LOL
     
  32. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    This question is actually a useful one because it allows one to estimate how much the running game helps the QB, even if the estimate is crude.

    So here are the numbers. Overall, since 2012, we have a 26-29 record for a 47% win percentage. In the 27 games where we rushed at least 100 yards the record is 18-9 or 67% win percentage. So that is one crude measure of how much rushing at least 100 yards helps this team win with Tannehill.

    Now, Tannehill's overall average passer rating from 2012 is 84.4. The average in games where we rush at least 100 yards is 92.1. So that gives a crude estimate of how much having 100 yards rushing helps a QB's passer rating.

    Just throwing info out there.. I go wherever the data goes so this is one more piece of data.
     
  33. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I'm not presenting it as fact. I'm simply saying what it means to me. That happens in every day life, dude.

    I mean hell, Kap was a "franchise QB" in your eyes, where is that now? So I guess a franchise QB can not be a franchise QB in a year?

    Get your panties out of a wad dude and just have a civilized discussion. People aren't going to agree with you. I'm not always right. You aren't always right. Deal with it.
     
  34. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Unfortunately our owner is the same way...
     
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  35. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    This entire thread exists because there's real debate to be had as to what happens between the Dolphins and Tannehill after 2016.

    You coming in and making a thinly veiling insult calling football fans "dumb" and making the insinuation that by extension some posters here are dumb is unnecessary.

    Major cool points lost in my humble opinion.

    Do you think my posts are dumb? What about cbrad's? What about Rocky Raccoon's? Instead of coming in and announcing how long the thread is, maybe don't.
     
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  36. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    Yea, I guess thats true. I would say the majority of us that hold Ryan to a higher standard also realize what he is, and could be...and maybe thats the frusterating part.


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  37. dWreck

    dWreck formerly dcaf

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    I ask you the same question 4 times and you ignore it, and I'm the one with the issue? Not only did I never claim to be right about anything, You responded to my post that wasn't even aimed at you or talking about you specifically.

    Lol phones gunna die and this is a complete waste of time. Have a good one. My question goes undefeated another year.
     
  38. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    ??? What does Mike Wallace have to do with Contracts to CKap or Ryan not meaning anything but hope?

    Are you 12? Would I look stupid if I answered to one of your posts with a haha the Heat bandwagon has officially fallen off the road...would I look like a jackass? Prolly.


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  39. dWreck

    dWreck formerly dcaf

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    The white knighting is lame and tiring. He said football fans are dumb and you post this? Lmao. If you think anything he said in that post is incorrect then you are delusional. Football fans ARE dumb. And said dumb fans hop bandwagons week to week then try to preach pseudo-factual gospel about their new positon until the wind happens to blow a different direction. You dont even need to look far for examples. Not only that he posted a generalization and didnt even name drop like you. Zzzzz
     
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  40. dWreck

    dWreck formerly dcaf

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    You just did, and do.

    As usual. Literally.
     

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