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Tell me which is the more logical route to take?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by vt_dolfan, Nov 4, 2015.

Which is the most logical direction Phins should go with QB

Poll closed Feb 2, 2016.
  1. Build a good line and good running game around Tannehill?

    83.6%
  2. Look for a QB who can win despite a bad offensive line and no running game.

    16.4%
  1. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I agree. I don't see what he brings that's so valuable and if hurting Tannehill it's game over.
     
  2. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Wilson has had poor OL every year. 2013 they had the worst OL in the league. 2014 wasn't a whole lot better. So you're cherry picking when just mentioning the first two weeks of this year.

    The problem is, when are we going to get a decent line? We throw a lot of resources at it. But we never get it right. Hopefully we get lucky soon. Question was asked how many Super Bowl winners with crappy olines. A few. But you need a QB who can handle that. Steelers Olines were not impressive. Outright bad. Giants Oline was nothing special. I don't find Eli to be a super athletic QB but he knows how to maneuver in the pocket a little. 2007 they slid David Diehl over from LG, and before that he never started at tackle once. How did he do? He played like crap, at LT.

    Tanny is here to stay, I would say, at least 3 more years. IF we go on an amazing run of draft picks like the Bengals (seriously, how do they get so stacked at offense and defense and offensive line and we have Dallas Thomas?) yes we can threaten.

    Let's see what Tannebaum does.
     
  3. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I think you have to just prioritize oline. You can't keep drafting fourth rounders. If you are, you better have an offensive line coach who can coach them up. We probably should be looking to upgrade that coaching position, also.
     
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  4. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    What where they ranked run blocking? The only way to compensate for a poor passing oline and still have a chance at a winning season is to have a good run blocking oline or a top five defense. If all you need is 14 points to win a game you can play field position and steal games that way
     
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  5. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    I agree we need to fix the OL, but I think it's more prudent to draft multiple mid-round OL picks and fix the OL with a better OL coach than gamble again on a 1st round OL. 1st rounders are really valuable and we have enough skill position deficiencies that we should use the higher rounds on those areas.
     
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  6. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think Res is correct to point out that the Oline needs to be in the conversation in round 1. If the right MLB or DE is there, maybe that goes above Oline but each should be considered a high priority area. We should welcome the idea of adding to each throughout the draft depending on the board.
     
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  7. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    I'm ok with that but we have to get volume. We cant go into game paper thin with no depth. I think we have to bring four offensive linemen. I would be fine with two FA pickups and two draft picks between 3rd and 5th. The FAs don't have to be all pros, just average and ready to start. Two guards and two tackles
     
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  8. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    I gotta admit I was a huge Bill Lazor fan, and at times, I love his play calling. I just dont get how we start calling such a bad game, when all the sudden one part of our offense is getting shut down. Maybe hes doing a great job calling plays, and its on the players or Tannehill, I dont know, but to me I just see a much different coordinator when one part of his offense isnt clicking.

    Id be happy if we went to a Norv Turner style offense like what Dallas used in the 90s.
     
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  9. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    Again, maybe Im completely wrong, but I want to get away from the Zone Blocking Scheme like nobodies business. Our lines were either very good, or just good when we went to a straight up man blocking scheme.
     
  10. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    We did have a good offensive line...BEFORE PHILBIN.
     
  11. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I seem to recall complaining about our oline under Sparano, to. Wasn't he an oline guy? I feel like I wasn't happy with the way the oline came together under him because of that.
     
  12. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    Ireland's downfall imo was mostly not getting us a good oline after year one. He had some injury issues the first couple of years and he did draft pouncey and long but he couldn't add to that. That and the fact it took him five years to get us a good QB and the fact he couldn't find another top flight pass rusher to pair with wake. Those three things doomed ireland
     
  13. Rock Sexton

    Rock Sexton Anti-Homer

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    They have prioritized it. James was drafted, Pouncey resigned, and then signed Albert. You can't have all-pro's at every position though.

    From what I've seen across the NFL, the teams that field high quality O-lines do it by dumb luck. It's like a chemistry experiment as to whether the five big uglies fit with each other.

    For me personally, I'd much rather have a guy at QB I know can adapt to the guys in front of him rather than need a clean pocket all game every game.
     
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  14. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    Totally agree.
     
  15. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

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    Early 2000s Dolphins football in a nutshell.
     
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  16. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    No one is advocating for All-Pro's across the line. We're advocating for average players across the line. It's hard to "adapt" when pressure is coming up the middle and around the outside (round the outside, round the outside). You can adapt when you know that a certain spot of your line is suspect.
     
  17. Phins Up Wins Up

    Phins Up Wins Up Banned

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    Nah man you just don't get it. We need 5 pro bowlers on the offensive line and a top 3 RB in the league. Then and only then will this team make the playoffs. Oh and we need the defense to be top 3 too.
     
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  18. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Yep. Classic baiting and trolling. Literally no one is saying that. No one.
     
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  19. Phins Up Wins Up

    Phins Up Wins Up Banned

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    You pretty much are. Albert above average, James above average, Pouncey above average. Now you want 2 more 1st round picks on the OL?
     
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  20. Rock Sexton

    Rock Sexton Anti-Homer

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    You make it sound like it's a jailbreak on every play.
     
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  21. Phins Up Wins Up

    Phins Up Wins Up Banned

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    You didn't know this was the worst OL put together in NFL history? Poor Tannehill.
     
  22. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Well, when I routinely see teams rush three or four guys, and get pressure from multiple places, what should I call it?
     
  23. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    James is average. Albert hasn't played an entire season for us yet and is only getting older. Pouncey is a stud. Do you watch football on peyote
     
  24. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Yeah, people talk about our oline like it's full of studs. Albert should not be counted on. Ever. They need to replace him. Losing him screws our offense every season. James is ok. Pouncey is great. Realistically, we have one stud on the line. So, one stud, one average, and three below average. That sounds like a reasonable, professional football team oline.
     
  25. Rock Sexton

    Rock Sexton Anti-Homer

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    I think you're missing the point here.

    We have three first rounders on the line. And a couple of guys also drafted within the first 3-4 rounds. Yet, we still have consistency/continuity problems ...... which is why I brought up the game of craps it is to put together a top shelf line.

    Personally, I stopped holding my breath a long time ago. We've had quite a few OL specialists and nothing changes.
     
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  26. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Albert is never healthy, which is where our problems start. Who cares if he's a first rounder, if he never plays?
     
  27. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    Good question. The answer is quite a few...

    in the last 14 Super Bowls only 5 teams have been in the top 10 for fewest sacks allowed. Here is where the OL have ranked in sacks given up during the years the team won the SB (rank = 22, 21, 14, 5, 15, 1, 12, 29, 4, 11, 7, 17, 32, 3).

    These OL have actually done worse when it comes to the running game. In the last 14 years only 2 times has the Super Winner been in the top 10 in Yards Per Rush (YPR) (rank = 23, 26, 30, 17, 12, 16, 3, 29, 5, 25, 32, 12, 12, 22).

    And only 5 times in the last 14 years has the Super Bowl Winning team finished in the top 10 in Rushing Yards Per Game (rank = 13, 27, 27, 7, 5, 18, 4, 23, 6, 24, 32, 11, 4, 18).

    However, 11 times the QB has ranked in the top 10 in QB rating in the last 14 years (rank = 5, 6, 10, 8, 7, 1, 24, 17, 2, 3, 6, 16, 5, 5).

    OL of Super Bowl winning team last 14 years:

    Average rank sacks given up = 14.13
    Average rank YPR = 18.86
    Average rank RYPG = 15.64

    QB rating Super Bowl winning team last 14 years:

    Average rank QB rating = 8.21

    But I know this isn't really possible b/c the RT fan club has repeatedly told me that a QB can't win with a poor OL and poor running game and they always speak "truth."
     
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  28. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    Miami has already built their team around Ryan Tannehill and we do have a running game.

    Miami has surrounded Tannehill with play-makers that are hand catchers and play-makers (Landry, Matthews, Stills, Jennings, Parker and Cameron are easily top 10 of pass catchers as a collective group) since we saw Tannehill can't connect with speedsters who are body catchers.

    And Miami does have a running game. Miami is tied for "1st" with the STL Rams (yep, the team that has Todd Gurley running the ball) with 5.0 YPR and Miami was "2nd" last year with 4.7 YPR behind only Seattle. And this is with a QB that doesn't stretch the defense allowing them to stack the line-of-scrimmage.

    Miami's problem has been they have put the ball in a QBs hands who is not consistent and doesn't convert 3rd downs (31st in the league at 27.2%)

    So I think this poll is missing the realistic answer: Accept Ryan Tannehill isn't the QB, replace him (at the very least, bring in actual competition) and continually draft, sign and trade for the best players available who can help the team.
     
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  29. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    The last four Super Bowl winners and where they ranked according to football outsiders

    PATRIOTS #5 run blocking/ #2 pass blocking............#12 defense
    SEAHAWKS #9 run blocking/ #32 pass blocking...........#1 defense
    RAVENS #6 run blocking/ #13 pass blocking...................#19 defense
    GIANTS #28 run blocking/ #6 pass blocking.....................#19 defense

    DOLPHINS #19 run blocking/ #25 pass blocking........#20 defense

    each offensive line was top ten in one area or the other. Miami Dolphins offensive line is below average in both areas. But derp away
     
  30. muskrat21

    muskrat21 Well-Known Member

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    our RB having a high YPC means jack **** when he has 4-9 attempts in a game.
     
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  31. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    How are Dolphins 19th in run blocking when they were 2nd in YPC???
     
  32. muskrat21

    muskrat21 Well-Known Member

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    well you see, when you have 2 games where you run the ball well it gives you a high YPC. When you have 5 games where the run blocking sucks. It gives you a low run blocking rank.
     
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  33. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    It sounds to me that the average OL of Super Bowl teams was...AVERAGE. *GASP* We've been arguing for two seasons that Tannehill needs AVERAGE play from his oline.

    Thanks for proving that.
     
  34. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    Agreed, Tanne is the type of QB where you need to rely on the run game to win games.
     
  35. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Three more years is certainly possible, and I think everyone wants him to be around for longer than that. But realistically, its very possible that he could be jettisoned after 2016.
     
  36. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member


    Lol....

    Avg Rank for sacks given up...= 14.13 Miamis Current Rank = 27th

    Avg Rank YPR = 18.86 Miamis Current Rank = 30th


    Whats funny is...you threw up stats to show that ..guess what...most Super Bowl Champions are somewhere in the middle when it comes to Offensive line rankings....and I asked..how many have had bad offensive lines.

    How is middle of the road...a bad offensive line?

    Bad is third worst in the league...like we are.

    Nobody NOBODY is saying Ryan Tannehill has to have a top ten offensive line to do well. NOBODY.

    How bout we shoot for...like...ranked 16...that would be light years better then what we have now.
     
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  37. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    OUR OFFENSE IS AN OFFENSE THAT NEEDS THE RUN GAME TO BE EFFECTIVE.

    In October, we were passing the ball 73.6% of the time, the highest pass vs run ratio in the NFL.
     
  38. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    What would be a great study...would be to show how effective most QBs are when they pass the ball more then 70 percent of the time. And then go back and see where Ryan compares to those QBs.
     
  39. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    One point I want to raise is that the two options posed in the OP aren't exhaustive IMO:

    I think there are more desirable outcomes:
    - Tannehill improves to the point where he is outperforming his contract.
    - Miami is able to find a QB who is as good as Tannehill, but much cheaper.

    In a vacuum, Tannehill is good enough to win consistently with, but when you consider what his contract will cost in the coming years, he isn't really a value-add at this point.
     
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  40. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    I agree, but I think that's in large part due to the issues at QB.
     

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