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Interesting comments from Omar Kelly/Sun Sentinel

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by jim1, Jul 31, 2008.

  1. SuncoastFinsFan

    SuncoastFinsFan Banned

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    Wow...alot to discuss here.

    First, I didn't say it was "right" for anyone to call Beck (or any pro athlete names) I just said I don't think they are warranted "personal guarantees" against any criticism. If a person insults an athlete (or anyones) family, its says WAY more about the pathetic existence of the accuser than it does the athlete.

    Unfortunately for Quincy Carter, he has made alot of mistakes in his life, and they have been costly for him. I hope, #1 that he gets his life in order. #2, I hope he can live his life to his utmost potential. If that includes the NFL, so be it. If not, I wish him nothing but the best. In anycase, not being perfect myself, I won't personally criticize him. But some here have. And I didn't notice a backlash, and I didn't expect one, as I think its fair game for Pro Athletes to take ANY criticism. It comes with being a pro athlete.

    Hopefully, we won't have to discuss this further.

    I only brought up Dan Marino because you said that if the bloggers were saying he is great I would be upset. I was just using an extreme example to show, that even if they said he was Marino, I wouldn't be upset. I would have a critical eye on the person who said that. Far different from the treatment that Omar Kelly has rec'd here.

    In spite of your explanation, I don't accept that its your responsibility to shape public opinion on this board. I think it should play out. If 50 or 75 or 95 per cent of the people have a feeling/bias/slanted view of a player here, whats it to anyone? The coaches will decide if the fans are correct.

    I didn't talk about Omar vis a vis Hagan, because no one was taking an irrational view on Hagan. Most were skeptical of Hagan, as they should be. He has shown VERY little since coming to Miami. If I saw posters saying, "why the hell is everyone so down on Hagan?" and that seemed to be a plurality, I would question that sentiment, just like I am questioning the inordinate amount of support for Beck.

    Try Tampafinsfan or Tampafan01 (I really don't remember). But I can tell you, I was a supporter of the Ginn pick just because I thought more than anything else we needed on offense, we needed speed. And although Beck wouldn't have been my choice, I was ok with his selection.

    If we need to stop having biased opinions vis a vis Beck here, and you know that Omar is biased, then why allow his blogs to be posted? And I don't think its bickering to discuss or debate the QBs. That goes on everywhere in the NFL. Is part of what being a fan is about...no?

    And the reason you don't see my criticizing the other QBs is because I really am not criticizing any of the QBs. My question wasn't, "Why is Beck sucking?" My question is, "with all of the QBs sucking, why is there is there such a backlash against those who are critical of Beck?"

    Let me say right now, I think the bottom line, for whatver reason (experience, time in offense, bad Oline) all three QBs are subpar. I am hopeful that over time the overall play improves and one separates himself and becomes "Da Man".

    I hope I have answered your questions...if not, reask it and I'll try to answer it in another post.
     
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  2. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    No offense, but you said that any criticism (personal or otherwise) was fair game and even went on to say it was fine for someone to bring his religion into the conversation. That's why I questioned you about it.

    Because Carter brought that on himself by violating the NFL's drug policy and it pretty much ended his career. That's a valid criticism because his screwup impacted his play.

    I don't think that players are fair game and all criticism is valid or "fine". I would put religion in the same category as race, if someone is going to use Beck's religion to criticize him, that's the same as someone bringing race into the conversation.

    For example.....

    "(insert player) is a damn midget black fool"

    Is that acceptable? Wouldn't using religion to slam a player be as offensive as using race?

    But you are, you are taking issue with people who are saying that they want to see what Beck can do, they aren't even going as far as saying that he is the next Marino. You've called them "Beckers", said that they are making excuses for him and questioned why he has such a following.....and noone has even said that he is going to be great. All we want to see is our team take advantage of it's asseta and give them all a shot to show what they can do.

    And as I pointed out, Omar doesn't feel the same way. He already has his mind made up about John Beck and his coverage is slanted against him, that is what people are pointing out.

    We want fair competition, the Miami FO wants fair competition and Omar already has McCown penciled in as the starter and Beck is "checkdown". See the difference?

    It's not our job to "shape" opinion, it's our job to make sure that the quality of the posts here remain top notch. That doesn't mean that everyone has to agree and that doesn't mean that we'll go through and delete posts that criticize a certain player, what that means is that we are going to make sure that everybody here is respectful and that they bring their "A" game. Petty bickering and foolish insults are not allowed and will never be allowed here. There are other places to do that, this isn't one of them.

    I brought Hagan's name up because Omar was down on him despite his progress and Omar only changed his tune when Sparano came out and said that Hagan was having a terrific camp. How could Omar continue to unfairly criticize him when the coach comes out and directly contradicts him and his camp reports? He couldn't and that's why his opinion shifted. But because of the struggles on offense he has singled Beck out and given him a stupid nickname for something that all of the QB's have been guilty of.

    Even I have cautioned that Hagan has done this before and fizzled once the season started, but I never tried to slant my views to make it seem like Hagan was performing poorly in camp like Omar has done with Hagan and Beck.

    Again, maybe Omar just has no idea what he's looking for in evaluating a player. Either way, his blogs should be taken with a fistfull of salt.

    The same TampaFinsFan01 that routinely bashed Beck supporters before the draft and was in favor of drafting Matt Ryan? I can provide links if you like....

    We don't have the type of board here, we want our members to be respectful and to discussion football like adults. The namecalling and garbage that goes on elsewhere will not be tolerated here. We're happy to have you and hope that you respect our wishes to keep this board free of that sort of nonsense.

    Absolutely, but the way that one decides to discuss the QB situation is where there problem comes in. If it's done in a civil manner then everything is fine and dandy, but once someone starts namecalling and is disrespectful to his fellow members, that's where we draw the line. Again, this place will not allow that type of behavior.

    Your posts so far on Beck say otherwise.

    And again, there isn't a backlash against pointing out that Beck has underperformed so far, it's in how it's done. Pointing out that Beck has struggled in camp is fine, he has (they all have), but when it gets into silliness (or worse) that's when people object.

    There we can agree. All of them have been average so far and that's to be expected this time of year. Defenses are almost always ahead of the offense at this stage and we can add to that the fact that the offense is learning a new playbook yet again adding to the sluggishness and poor play. Hopefully one of them can grasp the O quickly and take the lead, but I'm not going to read too much into the results so far.

    Just remember what we expect of our members and we'll all have fun. :hi5:
     
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  3. JMHPhin

    JMHPhin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    LOL:up:
     
  4. SuncoastFinsFan

    SuncoastFinsFan Banned

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    Wow, Take II.

    Pro Athletes have to take whatever the public gives. Bottom line. I am done with that issue.

    Other issues I will deal with...

    Hagan..I don't know why you are bringing him up REPEATEDLY...hes irrelevant here, isn't he?

    As for me wanting (Ryan)...thats true, but not the whole picture. I wanted to address the QB situation EARLY... And I think my position was justified on draft day, and further justified by the performance of the QBs so far in camp. Who wouldnt' want Matt Ryan right now? Only someone who isn't paying attention.

    I haven't "bashed" anyone here. So, whatever kind of board we have, I am down with it.

    You seem convinced that I have bashed Beck with "sillyness" or something. I haven't done anything of the sort. I have pointed out that he hasn't accomplished anything in the NFL...thats just a fact. And posts on Beck DO NOT say otherwise. On that, you are just mistaken.

    But I do agree about namecalling. I hope the people that have called Omar a liar get reprimanded.

    I get the feeling that you are constantly "warning" me. I don't think I need to be warned. I can't help but get the feeling (and others here who have emailed me agree) that I am being singled out because I am not "towing the company line". I hope thats not the case.

    I just havent seen you go in to as much depth with any other poster. And my posts are coherent and well written. I can't say that for everyone else. Maybe I've just missed the post where you pick every sentence apart.

    In anycase....we did seem to find common ground at the end and thats always a good thing. Lets hope that whomever wins the QB job does better than the QBs did last year..or we'll have our pick of the litter in next years draft as well.
     
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  5. evz

    evz Feral Druid Club Member

    SunCoast - Why is it that players are fair game for any kind of comments, but reporters are not?
     
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  6. SuncoastFinsFan

    SuncoastFinsFan Banned

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    They might be. If you think they are, they are. Say what you want.

    Its when people say, "Oh, no, I am not taking up for Beck" and then call Omar a creepy slimeball for criticizing Beck that I am taken aback.

    I don't care what anyone calls anyone. Thats never what this debate was about.

    I don't have an opinion of Omar and I have a good opinion of Beck, just FTR. But I won't call Quincy names because of his failings...But if others want to , thats their business.

    Sorry this subject got bogged down in this mess. It wasnt intended.
     
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  7. evz

    evz Feral Druid Club Member

    Ok cool. I am not here to antagonize either. But in reading through all this, I see several people point out that Omar did not report the touchdown that Beck threw in one of the practices. I may have missed it, but I do not see you acknowledge that this did indeed happen. Did you see this?
     
  8. PhinsRock

    PhinsRock Premium Member Luxury Box

    Keep it real guys, it's TC, and reporters make mistakes, players say things that may be skewed to their opinion, and posters definitely love to defend their favorite players.

    Just relax, let TC and all the competitions unfold, then when we start playing games, it will be a LOT more fun for you, I almost guarantee it.
     
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  9. SuncoastFinsFan

    SuncoastFinsFan Banned

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    I wasn't there, I didn't see it so I don't know for sure. I hope Beck did throw a TD. I hope that Beck is better than he looks, better than he seems, and better than anyone thinks he will be.

    Hopefully, if Omar mis-reported, he'll be more careful in the future. :up:
     
  10. evz

    evz Feral Druid Club Member

    Sorry, not trying to get you to acknowledge the touchdown, just the apparent "mis-reporting". The mis-reporting seems to me to be the whole root of where this thread started to derail.

    For the record, I am not trying to convert you - I totally respect your opinion on Beck - you don't have to change it to pacify anybody here - I'm just trying to point out where the negative reaction to Omar is coming from.

    Hopefully, if Omar is not more careful in the future, readers will be wise to it.
     
  11. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    So if someone hurls insults at a guy because his kid is slow or a relative just passed (it happened to David Wells) then that's okay? Your comment leaves the door wide open for that type of thing and I'm just trying to nail down where you stand.

    Not when it comes to pointing out Omar's bias, Hagan it's just another example of that.

    What you are seeing isn't all that uncommon and considering that they are all learning a new offense, it shouldn't come as a surprise.

    Who wouldn't want Matt Ryan right now?

    Me

    I wanted no part of Matt Ryan because I didn't feel that he is a franchise QB and I definitely didn't think that he was worthy of the #1 overall pick.

    :up:

    It's the fact that you seem to be writing him off already and that anyone who wants to give him a shot is a "becker" or in love with their "messiah". That's the stuff that I'm referencing.

    I just did a search of this thread and here are the first uses of the terms....

    Liar
    http://forums.thephins.com/showthread.php?p=267046&highlight=liar#post267046

    Lying
    http://forums.thephins.com/showthread.php?p=265281&highlight=lying#post265281

    :wink2:

    There is a difference between calling a reporter out for his bias and flat out calling him a liar. I've given Omar enough leeway and said that maybe he just doesn't know what he's looking for when it comes to evaluating players. Most of the people in this thread see a bias and are giving examples and taking issue with that, I haven't seen anyone come out and call him a liar.

    I have a rule that I don't mod people/posts in the same thread that I'm posting in unless it's a personal attack or over the top disruption (to avoid people saying that I'm singling them out), so I haven't modded this thread at all. That doesn't mean that other staff members aren't reading and it also doesn't mean that I won't make use of the report button if I think it warrants it (which I haven't done in this thread). All warnings are handled in pm's (which I haven't sent you). So because we are on opposite sides of the discussion, that doesn't mean that I'm warning you. I'll remind people about site rules if I think they are straying into the area of unecessary comments, but we don't mod in public and I haven't sent you anything privately. :wink2:

    :lol:

    Oh come on, I'm known for making long winded posts and "picking apart" a quote. :lol: You obviously missed the FA discussions, draft discussions and the Ronnie Brown, Chad Johnson and Daunte Culpepper discussions. :lol:

    Yes we did :hi5:
     
  12. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Who is writing Beck off? Just because he sucked for a few practices, doesn't mean anyone is labeling him a bust. But it still needs to be called what it is. If Omar think Beck sucks at practice, then Omar think Beck sucks at practice. Doesn't mean hes being written off.
     
  13. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    Stringer, reread the thread and if you still have any questions you can pm me. SCFF seems to want to move on and I'll respect that instead of reposting the quotes.
     
  14. phinphever

    phinphever Punk, Make My Day!!

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    I agree completely. It's not a love for beck it's about when you read a newspaper blog or watcha report on tv, their is a assumption that the reporter does not have a agenda or personal feelings he is injecting in his reporting. Because of that trust that the public expects of its media, you see people getting upset when their is suspected bias. Now if the reporter takes pains to make sure the reader or listeners know it's their opinion then fine go for it. Opine away. But when it is expected to be accurate it better damb well be accurate. No where is any of these blog sites is it posted that it is to be considered a opinion page. To the contrary the news papers laud and extol their reporting as the best around.

    For your reading pleasure here is the:Journalist's Creed

    The Journalist's Creed was written by the first dean of the Missouri School of Journalism, Walter Williams. One century later, his declaration remains one of the clearest statements of the principles, values and standards of journalists throughout the world. The plaque bearing the creed is located on the main stairway to the second floor of Neff Hall.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I believe in the profession of journalism.

    I believe that the public journal is a public trust; that all connected with it are, to the full measure of their responsibility, trustees for the public; that acceptance of a lesser service than the public service is betrayal of this trust.

    I believe that clear thinking and clear statement, accuracy and fairness are fundamental to good journalism.

    I believe that a journalist should write only what he holds in his heart to be true.

    I believe that suppression of the news, for any consideration other than the welfare of society, is indefensible.

    I believe that no one should write as a journalist what he would not say as a gentleman; that bribery by one's own pocketbook is as much to be avoided as bribery by the pocketbook of another; that individual responsibility may not be escaped by pleading another's instructions or another's dividends.

    I believe that advertising, news and editorial columns should alike serve the best interests of readers; that a single standard of helpful truth and cleanness should prevail for all; that the supreme test of good journalism is the measure of its public service.

    I believe that the journalism which succeeds best -- and best deserves success -- fears God and honors Man; is stoutly independent, unmoved by pride of opinion or greed of power, constructive, tolerant but never careless, self-controlled, patient, always respectful of its readers but always unafraid, is quickly indignant at injustice; is unswayed by the appeal of privilege or the clamor of the mob; seeks to give every man a chance and, as far as law and honest wage and recognition of human brotherhood can make it so, an equal chance; is profoundly patriotic while sincerely promoting international good will and cementing world-comradeship; is a journalism of humanity, of and for today's world.
     
  15. PMZQ

    PMZQ Banned

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    Dude, you are so completely wrong, I won't even debate this issue anylonger with you.

    I stand firm in my belief that attacking a man's character outside of football on this board is just silly and serves no purpose whatsoever.

    If other wish to pursue you on this, so be it, but I am done with you. :pity:
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2008
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  16. PMZQ

    PMZQ Banned

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    THANK YOU L2G !!!!

    :up: :hi5:
     
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  17. SuncoastFinsFan

    SuncoastFinsFan Banned

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    Ok.
     
  18. texasPHINSfan

    texasPHINSfan New Member

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    i don't know why everyone is jumping on Suncoast. he's not and never did advocate that we say derogatory things about players. he is just defending freedom of speech. there is a difference between saying something should be allowed, and condoning something.

    as a bystander watching all that mess, he produced a lot of good points clearly & concisely and without flaming anyone. some of you guys get wayyyy too wrapped up in some things and take too much stuff personally IMO.

    that said, this IS a discussion board and i welcome this type of debate as long as it stays clean. :up:
     
  19. mbmonk

    mbmonk I have no clue

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    I am glad Porter is showing up. Don't we have quite a bit invested in him?
     
  20. Vaark

    Vaark Si Hoc Legere Scis Nimium

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    The only problem is that Omar's a fan blogger masquerading as a journalist. In olden times, long before the wide reaches of the internet where anyone can and does blog, a reporter was a professional job that required a menial newsroom internship; it was an opening that was hard to come by and the competition, especially for major media stations and papers was intense. Today, with the quickly demanded and consumed information overload, much of it trying to be attention-catching by being either prurient or sensational, Walter Cronkites are far and few between.

    The Sun-Sentinel is one of the sloppiest practitioners of written journalism I've encountered. Their reporting standards are inconsistent and arbitrary, their reportage is often incorrect, their headlines misleading and the copy is a grammatical minefield perpetuated by the substandard writers they employ and editors who are supposed to be the final checks. If you read the SS online and the topix discussion forum reader comments that follow certain articles, you'd see what a laughingstock the paper has become to many who respect reporting and the written word.

    Given this, it's not surprising that Omar is employed by them to "report." He's entitled to his opinions and biases, but no more entitled than I am to be biased against him for his shoddy, subjective reporting which is really no more than the blog of a slavish fan with access to the team. Heck, in the past even I've played around with a blog, posting stock charts of trades I've taken that day or setups I found for the following day; sometimes I've been right and folks made some money, other times, we all lost. Never did I pass myself off as a master trader like Larry Williams..just another poseur who blogs.. similar to what Omar is in reality doing.

    The point is, even when Omar turns out to be spot-on, don't forget that a broken clock gets it right 2X a day. I personally take what he says with a grain of salt, especially when it comes to Beck. Only when the WQAM, Jeff Darlington (I am purposely omitting Armando) and the PBPost confirms the poor showing, do I take it seriously.
     
  21. texasPHINSfan

    texasPHINSfan New Member

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    money, not draft picks.
     
  22. JMHPhin

    JMHPhin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    No Beck isnt legend, if you are reading the defenses of him as such, it exxplains alot to me. I better understand your position.

    My position is this due criticism is fair and warranted, that is if you establish a criteria and applying it equally then report results based on that criteria alone, then teh opinion stands alone. But if the criteria for Beck is diff than while he may not be lying, the basis for his reporting is diff. With Beck he is looking in depth for things reporting all struggles while brushing over teh same details with teh other 2.

    Like I said Beck is struggling but how much and how costly is what is varying from each reporter and from Sparano.

    I dont agree w/ Omar, I dont think he is lying, but I dont think his criteria is teh same.
     
  23. texasPHINSfan

    texasPHINSfan New Member

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    no one on here apparently agrees with omar. everyone is caught up in his prior biases and seem to think that beck can't possibly have a bad day.

    i never read any of these journalists regularly and can't discern biases from one to the next.

    the one thing i DO see: that each journalist is reporting the same things about beck. So why if it comes from omar is it a bias and therefore must be discarded?

    what I'm saying is that you guys are so hung up on the reporter biases you aren't listening to what they're saying. If beck goes 2 for 9 in a drill, and the two completions are dump outs to the RB in the flat (hypothetical situation here), then that would allude to a sub-par day. who cares who reports it?

    i'm not looking at the authors, i'm looking at the performance reports from the camp. THOSE are factual. :up:
     
  24. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    If anything, Omar reports like me... :up:

    These reporters are just starting to report on whats happening at Training Camp. I've been doing it 12 years. I would never say that I can do all the things they do when it comes to reporting. They also have to cover Baseball, Basketball, and Hockey.

    But like I said this has been something I've done for a long time, and I actually know a few things like outside technique, gaps, and can tell when it's a 2/3/4 deep zone. I'm not sure if they do or not but I do know that when they're at training camp, they sit in the shaded media bleachers TOGETHER. Half the time they're sitting there BS'ing with each other, or they're on the phone. They could not have possibly caught everything on every play or even close. So my guess is they take one persons words sometimes, or while they're sitting there BS'ing they just make sort of a guessing judgement of who stinks and who don't..
     
  25. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Ozzy does it as a fan. A fan of the dolphins. Some of these reporters, don't. Not implicating Omar at all (I don't find him that bad, just funny situation) but don't you all remember the high-five incident?
     
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  26. #1dolphinsfan

    #1dolphinsfan New Member

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    Ernest Needs to step up his game or he is going to loss his spot to Derek Hagan witch i think has already happend
     
  27. SuncoastFinsFan

    SuncoastFinsFan Banned

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    Certainly didn't mean to diss the Ozz-Ster! Major Props...:up:

    My point was, and I think you know this, right now, you guys are the only info we can go on. If the reports are similar about a player, we'll have to rely on that until we can see the player for ourselves.

    I enjoy reading ALL of the reports from anyone who goes. Thanks for all you do and please keep them coming.
     
  28. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    Never took it as a diss. It's all good there. I'll tell you though. Sometimes when I read some of the blogs I see some very similar stuff. I'm not saying they copy me but I sometimes wonder if they read my stuff, and get a little technique from it, and blend it into their own.

    I'm 1000 percent with you though I've always said that the more camp reports there are the better. I don't read to many of the blogs but people like Nasty, Finsgirlie, and most of the ones given on the websites, I'll read...
     
  29. texasPHINSfan

    texasPHINSfan New Member

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    wow. a 25 page thread on comments from Omar, whom 95% of this website dislike.

    :lol:

    well, at least he stirs discussions! :up:
     
  30. SuncoastFinsFan

    SuncoastFinsFan Banned

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    This is a good thing. It means we still maintain the passion for our team. When nothing gets us stirred up anymore, thats when everyone should worry about the state of the Fins. Judging by this, I'd say we're in good shape. :wink2:
     

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