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Will we be able to rebuild the OLine before we have to get rid of Tannehill ?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Dolphinzdawgg, Nov 15, 2015.

  1. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Who deep throws aren't few and far between?

    Oh wait, I'm stupid.
     
  2. smahtaz

    smahtaz Pimpin Ain't Easy

    Facts are facts. Everyone is certainly free to ignore them if they so choose.
     
    Fin D likes this.
  3. BigNastyDB13

    BigNastyDB13 Well-Known Member

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    Twist and tie. Twist and tie. You're just too damn smart for the rest of us. Lol
     
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  4. BigNastyDB13

    BigNastyDB13 Well-Known Member

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    And the facts are he gets a ton of easy completions that any nfl qb would complete. If you want an accurate interpretation of accuracy you should look at completion percentage on passes beyond at least 5 yards. Most teams don't throw a dozen passes at or near the Los.
     
  5. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I haven't looked this season, but last year, didn't Brady, Rodgers, and Peyton all throw a higher percentage of passes shorter than 10 yards than Tannehill?
     
  6. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Not so sure. I've compared his numbers to the 3-5 of the top QBs and his behind the LOS/1-10 yard throws, and deep throws are comparable to Brady, Rivers and Brees. Last year definitely compressed the field in the middle of the year (opening it back up later) but this year he's playing around what other good QBs are.
     
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  7. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Hahaha. I forgot that one in my predictions.

    You called me clueless but I'm the one that acts like I'm smarter then everyone else.

    Your hypocrite list is getting all checks so far. You might break a record.

    Tell you what Chucklenuts, instead of all this crap you go ahead tell me what I've said that's so wrong:

    - Is W/L record a QB stat?
    - Did Tannehill not play at a high level last year after he got the offense down and before Albert went down?
    - Now that Wallace is gone, has he deep ball not improved?

    We can start there or you can explain how all this time devoted to arguing with me about arguing with people proves you DON'T really care about what I think.

    Your pick, I'll wait.
     
  8. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    So are you going to ignore my post then?

     
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  9. smahtaz

    smahtaz Pimpin Ain't Easy

    My bad, my list was from last year.
     
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  10. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    All good. I believed you at first so I checked to see who was ahead of him, and was like, que???
     
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  11. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    Can we all just get along and agree that the Knicks and Lakers suck?

    Sent from my GT-I9500 using Tapatalk
     
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  12. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    gfy!!
     
  13. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    Eventually, but I'm not sure what that has to do with the Knicks and Lakers deserving contraction.

    Sent from my GT-I9500 using Tapatalk
     
  14. BigNastyDB13

    BigNastyDB13 Well-Known Member

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    The fact you have 3 topics to discuss out of 60k posts says it all. You spend seemingly the whole day doing to other what I've done to you. Argue about nothing related to football. You have nothing better to do than go around and make a "chucklenuts" out of yourself all day with the same handful of people. BTW what 41 yr old man says chucklenuts? I typically ignore your posts for good reason but I'll answer your actual football questions.
    W/L record is obviously a team record. That goes without saying. The QB however has more say in W/L than anyone else much like W/L isn't a great Stat for Starting Pitchers in baseball but the starting pitcher has more say in that than anyone else. Typically good QBs and good SPs have good records. There are exceptions.

    Are you saying Thill is a top 10 QB because he played like 1 for 6 weeks of his 3 1/2 yr career? The guy has never shown consistency and that's a lot of people's beef with Thill. He show small spurts of being a franchise QB but apparently needs everyone around him to be good in order for him to look good. That's a problem.

    We haven't adequately replaced Wallace, no. He had his warts but he consistently got open downfield, usually wide open by nfl standards. Stills has caught what 3 deep passes? Dropped another 2 or 3. I'm sorry if I expect more out of my QB than you do. I don't make excuses for HIS play but I do take into account his supporting cast. I can separate the two, unlike you.
     
  15. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    Hey man, I don't think you understand what Fin D is saying, but that may be because it doesn't usually make much sense, but HEY, chucklenuts is the best thing he's brought to these boards, it's funny, now I don't agree with the manner in which he used it, but I'll use it in the future, like with playing pool, "hey chucklenuts, it's your shot", it'll give me a chance to move on from putzknuckle...
    :yes:
     
  16. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    I agree Tannehill is athletic, not freakish, but I don't see Tannehill use his athleticism to his advantage. He doesn't get out of the pocket and as far as being good at throwing on the move I haven't seen much of that this year. I recall him missing Sims on the play he got injured and Stills in the same game near the end zone when both were wide open. The only play I recall him throwing well on the run this year was against the Jags in week two when he rolled left and hit Williams coming across the field about 5 yards past the los in which he took it in for a score. I'm guessing there must be a few more, but none that stands out as exceptional compared to an average QB.

    I actually think there are quite a few "good" QBs and a dozen or so better than good, but the NFL is on the cusp of some all-time greats fading away as the infusion of young talent are climbing the ladder to see where they will fit on the pecking order. Of course, that can change from year-to-year. It reminds me of when Montana, Elway, Marino and Young all retired within a few years of each other and left a void of greatness for a few years before Brady and P. Manning filled it. Rogers and will be around for a few more years, but who knows about Brady given his age, Big Ben given the amount of hits he has taken over the years and Manning clearly looks to be at the end of his journey.

    But there is a level (or levels) between good and great and those are the elite QBs (top 8-10 generally speaking).

    James Collins says that "good is the enemy of great" and I would add "good is the enemy to elite" and the QB position is, by far, the most important position in football (all of sports imo). If we were talking about an offensive lineman or linebacker being around the 20th best at his position I would agree that Miami could win with him and let's focus on building around that player to cover his weaknesses as high draft picks and big money are best spent at more important positions. But that is a losing formula at QB. There are only 6 playoff spots out of 16 teams in each conference and the teams with elite and great QBs are the repeat offenders for those spots. That typically means if we only have a "good" QB then Miami will probably only be fighting for Wild Card spot when there is a really good team surrounding that QB and most likely result in a quick exit if we did make the playoffs (which hasn't happened yet under his guidance).

    I think if all Miami has is a "good" QB then Miami has QB problems. And why would any team with a goal of making the playoffs and ultimately the Super Bowl not go after improving that position if all they have is a "good" QB?
     
  17. JPPT1974

    JPPT1974 2022 Mother's Day and May Flowers!

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    It is just coming down clutch. When it comes down to it. As it is about winning games. Not about the TD passes he throws.
     
  18. BigNastyDB13

    BigNastyDB13 Well-Known Member

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    Lol...he's entertaining I'll give him that. Just be careful who you call Chucklehead because we live in a PC world now and Chucklehead is extremely derogatory. :cry:
     
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  19. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    Lay off fin d already. I'm glad he's defending tannehill rather than letting the emo fans turn this place into a wrist cutting wasteland. I don't always agree with him but jeez enough already. God forbid someone on a dolphins site actually takes the time to defend dolphins players when warranted. And honestly I think he's done a damn good job. Often times he's alone taking on five or six atta kers all by himself. Props for that
     
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  20. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Oh, he's never alone.

    Frankly, comparing a starting pitcher to a starting QB is like comparing a huge Thanksgiving feast to a box of Twinkies. You eat both, but they aren't even remotely the same. A pitcher has far more control of outcomes of games than does a QB.
     
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  21. BigNastyDB13

    BigNastyDB13 Well-Known Member

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    Comparing the W/L is a fair comparison. Pitchers have to have their defense field behind them, offense score and bullpen hold the lead. QB needs a supporting cast as well. I don't see what's so far fetched but ofcourse you think Thill is void of all error because his line isn't good. Agree to disagree. As a Mets fan I'm aware that many things can cause a starting pitcher to not win that are completely out of his control.
     
  22. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    I'll take a shot at answering your questions:

    - Is W/L record a QB stat?

    YES, based on a quick Google search it is often used by a slew of football sites as a way of comparing and ranking QBs

    http://www.footballdb.com/stats/qb-records.html
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_wins_by_a_National_Football_League_starting_quarterback
    http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/content/winners-and-losers-qbs-ranked-by-win-percentage/6575/
    http://6thring.com/nfl-qb-playoff-record-roethlisberger-brady-manning.html
    http://fivethirtyeight.com/features...eason-quarterback-of-all-time-is-eli-manning/
    http://www.forbes.com/sites/kurtbad...bowl-win-make-tom-brady-the-greatest-qb-ever/
    http://cowboysblog.dallasnews.com/2015/09/sturm-the-annual-qb-win-total-post.html/
    http://heavy.com/sports/2015/01/tom...ds-stats-comparison-head-to-head-nfl-history/
    http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on...he-nfl-has-a-winning-record-against-tom-brady
    http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9976371/comparing-legacies-peyton-manning-tom-brady
    http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2014/10/26/7070697/ben-roethlisberger-record-milestone-steelers
    http://outsidethehashes.com/?p=836

    - Did Tannehill not play at a high level last year after he got the offense down and before Albert went down?

    Inconsistent, which is not a high level. QB rating before Albert went down...80, 73, 70, 109, 83, 123, 73, 125, 81...the average QB rating last year for starters was 87.1...so Tannehill had 6 games below "average" and 3 above before Alberts injury. Keep in mind Lazor has installed a very friendly QB rating scheme utilizing short passes. Foles had a 119 QB rating the season before when Lazor was his QB coach.

    http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/gamelog/_/id/14876/year/2014/ryan-tannehill

    - Now that Wallace is gone, has he deep ball not improved? Was this sentence constructed under severe intoxication?

    2014:

    21-30 yards: 6-22; 31-40: 1-11; 41+: 2-9

    2015:

    21-30 yards: 8-30; 31-40: 2-8; 41+: 1-1

    However; a 48 yard pass was completed to Matthews that literally bounced off a Jets hands and Matthews was able to maintain stride and concentration to catch it. The 41+ yard catch was against Buffalo that was a duck that Matthews came out of the end zone to catch diving at the 1-2 yard line and then rolling into the endzone while the Bills defender was clueless to what was going on. Neither pass was accurate, but he does credit for the completions.

    I will say that based on the eye test his deep balls have look somewhat better (but we are comparing him to him and not some of the elite deep passers) as some have been on target. It could also be that Miami doesn't have a WR as fast as Wallace. I'll definitely admit Wallace is the poster-child for a basket catcher so any ball under-thrown has an extremely low probability of being caught. Early on this year RT couldn't seem to get the ball within 5 yards of Stills, but that has improved beginning with the Titans game in which he did make a beautiful throw about 30-35 yards past the los. He still has yet to connect on a pass over the top of the defense that I can recall. "3" passes completed (two of which weren't on the money) is not going to go down as an elite deep passer in the NFL.


    Why is it that you don't actually do your own research when you throw stuff out? It's weak taking the approach I'll throw out questions I don't really know the answer to and if they can't disprove it I can claim it's true...similar to "if I throw enough crap against the wall some of it is bound to stick."

    So back at you...how about providing answers to your own questions.

    - Can you prove that W/L record is not a QB stat?
    - Can you show that Tannehill did play at a high level last year after he got the offense down and before Albert went down as compared to other QBs who had their OL intact?
    - Can you show that now Wallace is gone, his deep ball has improved significantly?
     
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  23. BigNastyDB13

    BigNastyDB13 Well-Known Member

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    To the rescue! Lmao...I'm done with him and the reply you quoted was me answering his question he presented to me. If you don't like it tough ****.
     
  24. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I disagree. A pitcher has much more control of a game than a QB. Yes, the catcher has to catch the ball, but usually the only balls that get by a catcher are balls that are poorly thrown by a pitcher. Baseball is really, to start with, a battle between the pitcher and the opposing batter. I would argue that W/L is a better indicator of a great pitcher than a great QB, although, pitchers are still dependent on teams to hold leads once they leave a game. Difference is, of course, that a starting pitcher doesn't get pegged for a loss if his defense losses a lead once he's gone.
     
  25. BigNastyDB13

    BigNastyDB13 Well-Known Member

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    You nailed that, especially the "it's a fact thill was top 5-10 before Albert got hurt and only after he got the offense down"..turns out he was inconsistent as he's ALWAYS been. Thanks for the research.
     
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  26. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    Even when Miami wins Tannehill moves down the ranks...

    http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000583321/article/qb-index-ranking-the-starters-from-1-to-32

    Just watching the Manziel video I was thinking that if Tannehill had a game like this (escaping the pressure, hitting WRs on the run, making big plays with his feet, continually throwing down the field accurately making big plays, knowing where the blitz is coming from, threading the needle, throwing the fade in the end zone) his fans would use this one game for the rest of the year of proof he is an elite QB.
     
  27. BigNastyDB13

    BigNastyDB13 Well-Known Member

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    He gets pegged for a loss if his team makes an error that allows the other team to score, resulting in a 1-0 loss. Same concepts. There's a reason most GOOD QBs have winning records just like there's a reason most GOOD SP have good records. It's actually more likely that a good pitcher will have a losing record than a good qb. ERA is a much better barometer. You can take whatever QB stat you want that's relevant and chances are Thill will be middle of the pack. ERA would probably be most like the QBR. Not the espn bs but the old school qbr. I believe thill is 19th which makes perfect sense.
     
  28. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    That play to Matthews was barely tipped, it didn't bounce off someone's hands. Was still a good job by Matthews, but that defender made a great play to even get a finger on that ball. But, if we're gonna start bringing up completions that shouldnt be completions, then we can bring up incompetence that should have been completions...but you guys don't generally like that line of thinking.
     
  29. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Sure, but I'm not arguing that Tannehill is elite. In fact you're on the right track with this argument, I think a team letting a pitcher down is exactly what we're arguing with Tannehill. The oline is atrocious. It would be like a pitcher having an entire infield of players who can't field a ball.

    I keep asking, and no one will answer, how many "good QBs" are actually on teams with as many glaring holes and below average play from units as the Dolphins.
     
  30. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    it is pathetic when the qb and the coordinator are completely ignoring two parts of schematic attack.

    http://www.miamiherald.com/sports/nfl/miami-dolphins/article45505962.html

    mentions nothing about unscripted runs but the media is finally on to the stupidity.
     
  31. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    he is and he derseves the resources for4 next year, shouldnt be difficult.
     
  32. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    Really on the barely tipped and not bouncing off his hands? Different interpretation of what a ball bouncing off someone's hand looks like I guess. First of all, the defender was slow to turn and run with Matthews and was several yards behind Matthews when he got a hand on it, then the ball went up several feet at least and traveled about 7 yards in the air before Matthews caught it. Not sure what the announcer was talking about when he said "this is very good coverage" as the defender gave Matthews 7 yards at the los and Matthews ran right by him as he was turning his hips. Actually looks like he stumbled a bit in turning and then ran with his eyes in the backfield. I tend to think of that as more than barely tipped. When I think of barely tipped the spin of the ball changes but not the trajectory.

    http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-...an-Tannehill-48-yard-pass-to-Rishard-Matthews

    I have no problem with people using actual examples of plays as examples. I much prefer them to just randomly throwing crap out based on a foggy memory and interpretation (not saying you specifically).

    Overall, I don't think Tannehill has suffered from an exuberant amount drops this year:

    http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/team-receiver-drops-percentage/2015/

    Unless we are talking about Jennings...I don't what the deal is between those guys but Jennings and RT don't seem to click at all.
     
  33. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Yes, he tipped it. It wasn't a bad throw, especially when you factor in that Tannehill couldn't really step into the throw, as there was a defender right in his grill.

    You're acting like that was a bad throw.

    As to drops, I'm not specifically talking about this year, although, he has had some bad drops this season, but not as many as last season.
     
  34. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I want Tannehill to be a complete qb, how can we all not agree on that when the guy refuses to run and his running production is almost nil at this point...maybe if he incorporated these two elements to his game he would have more backers..I know I would..It just doesnt seem that he has that ability to think about two things at once in those moments..

    he hasnt run on his own in three strait games...this boggles the mind.

    the thing is a lot of folks think I harp on this, when I think its the fastest way for him to improve his, and his offenses production, and for us to increase the percentage of winning and improving our third down conversion percentage.
     
  35. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Unscripted runs require a cerebral feeling of the pocket and chaos. Aaron Rodgers. Wilson. Big Ben. Tony Romo (although Tony runs backwards to extend a play lol). Tannehill isn't there. He doesn't have the lateral quickness he has straightline, stiff speed. Go watch his Wide Receiver film from A&M he's straightline. He's more Darren McFadden than Adrian Peterson. I think he needs scripted runs more than unscripted.
     
  36. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Umm yeah that wasn't just tipped that was a ball bouncing.

    that said, it wasn't a terrible terrible throw. Maybe just 6 inches too low at that point.
     
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  37. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    Its all in how you defend your topic, if we could get some people to stop attaching their twisted version of others opinions then it is possible to have a discussion. But when you fire hyperbole, hyperbole, hyperbole all day long?? You set yourself to be called out for doing it.

    Not that I'm pointing any fingers or anything, but jesus some of the replies with fictional talking points is out of control!! To me its a real problem that ignites the flame of these discussions that frankly get out of hand on a daily basis.

    And no....(because it becomes some folks) that NOT me saying its ALL that guy, but he plays a huge role in it. Then again, it could be his surroundings and not him. :up:
     
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  38. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    So now tipped not barely tipped? The announcer went from tipped to deflected to getting a hand on it.

    A lot of not-bad throws don't get completed. It was definitely lucky to be completed and not picked on a deflection. It would have been a good throw if there wasn't a defender there, but there was. It definitely wasn't a great throw as he was a couple yards behind Matthews when he "barely" tipped it.

    I have read several times when showing evidence that a claim has not been a problem for Tannehill and the narrative becomes...not this year, but in the past. Maybe the problem is I assume we are talking about Tannehill as he is now. :) All the reports in the off season were how he has taken a big step in leadership and play. I actually believed them and was hoping...wanting...praying...believing...and then reality hit, again.
     
  39. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

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    I am trying to avoid this topic but why don't the tannehill backers open up the link and comment on where the outside sport writers see tannehill.
     
  40. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    lol...If I ignore it then it doesn't exist?
     

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