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Will we be able to rebuild the OLine before we have to get rid of Tannehill ?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Dolphinzdawgg, Nov 15, 2015.

  1. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    i think the other argument is the guy has played on a ****ty team his entire career. once you get him an average 16th ranked oline you will see the guy who lights it up as he has shown in those few games in his career where he has had protection. there is a direct correlation between how good or bad an offensive line is and how good or bad a QB plays. you just have to look at this year nd you will see good qbs playing poorly behind bad olines and avg qbs playing well behind very good olines . let the guy have one year behind a 16th ranked offensive line and then we'll see whether he's tier 2 or 3. unless the way to a super bowl is to keep our offensive line ****ty for another decade
     
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  2. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    and how do you master the dink and dunk. you keep doing it. you dont start running around trying to be a different type of qb
     
  3. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    We live in a world where that piece of logic, common sense and basic football knowledge is crazy/stupid/clueless and makes you a tannehill homer.

    Kinda makes me wanna go super villain.
     
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  4. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    The article about the anonymous NFL poll is only available to ESPN insiders;
    http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/insi...rs-rank-32-starting-quarterbacks-tiers#Tier 3

    I read the entire article on another site, I think the poster on that site had insider, but the gist of it was;

    Tier 1) QBs that can carry a team and win or contend for a SB with decent talent

    Tier 2) QBs that are very good but need a little more talent around them to compete for a SB

    Tier 3) QBs that need a lot of talent around them to compete for a SB

    Tier 4) Mostly unknown quantities, QBs like Carr were in here, basically QBs that we just haven't seen enough of to give a grade to.

    They also mentioned sliders, like the difference between the bottom of tier 2 and the top of tier 2 were a different class of QB, the top of tier 2 were clear franchise QBs that could lead a team to the SB with less talent, while the bottom of tier 2 they still need significant help.

    Tanne had a few bottom of tier 2 votes, but most thought that was his ceiling and had him in the mid tier 3.

    It would be great if someone could get us access.
     
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  5. BigNastyDB13

    BigNastyDB13 Well-Known Member

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    We run that screen to Landry as much as any play. Same with that darn shotgun pitch to the rb. It rarely works. We need to stretch the field more often. 10-15 yard throws, not just bombs. We need to take more chances or we re going continue to struggle to score 20 pts. Thill is more than capable of moving. He's not good enough to sit in the pocket and pick people apart. Eventually he's going to miss a throw or make a bad decision. If this offense ever wants to be good enough to win anything of note under Thill it needs to be a 2te, run it well and use play action and rollouts and take some shots downfield. Think Kubiak and the Texans. The shotgun, let Thill carry the offense doesn't work with mediocre QB play.
     
  6. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    Philip Rivers...and it doesn't stop with just that. Rivers has much less help all together.
     
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  7. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    High end tier 3 imo
     
  8. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    How are you quantifying that?
     
  9. Rock Sexton

    Rock Sexton Anti-Homer

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    That team has been decimated by injuries. They lost Keenan Allen for the year, Malcolm Floyd has been hurt .... both TE's (Green and Gates) hurt. Multiple guys on the O-line hurt. He's playing with a MASH unit again, which strangely has been the case during most of his Charger tenure.
     
  10. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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  11. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    http://sportshoop.la/threads/starting-qb-tier-ranking-espn-insider.186659/

    Look for .pdf attached
     
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  12. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    Rivers has a worse Run Play %, a significantly worse RB core (28th YPC, MIA 4th) his defense gives up 3 points more per game, not many folks can even name one of his WR's, i have no idea however the difference in OL play...no up to date rankings I can find. I will say this though, Rivers for being a big guy is nifty in the pocket and can avoid sacks while keeping his eyes down field.

    Don't get me wrong though, Phillip Rivers is rare talent..but thats an example of a QB with little help.
     
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  13. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    QBs get a 1 point added for Tier 1, 2 for Tier 2, 3 for Tier 3, 4 for Tier 4.

    Tannehill finished 17th with a 2.86 average.

    The basic math:

    36 polled in total. 31 x 3 = 93; 5 x 2 = 10; 93 + 10 = 103 / 36 = 2.86 and 5 / 36 = 13.88%

    Keep in mind this was taken in the off season. Can't imagine any of the pollsters would move Tannehill from Tier 3 to Tier 2. Quite possible some of the 5 would move Tannehill from Tier 2 to Tier 3. Also, quite possible several of the QBs behind Tannehill would have moved past him if the poll was redone today to include this year's play.
     
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  14. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    how do you go vertical with an offensive line that gives you two seconds of protection. i'm with you on going more vertical and stretching the field. i just believe that you cant overcome bad offensive line play. you might be able to do it for a play or two but over the course of a game the trenches dictate the flow. its why i say hickey and tannenbaum need to finish the job they started with tannehill and the offense. you have the rbs, the wrs, the qb now add two average or better lineman to make those investments pay off. i mean the way they've built this offense is we have a ferrari body, a $15,000 sound system installed and hyundai engine under the trunk
     
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  15. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Is he allowed to audible?
     
  16. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    Im sure he is, but anyone can play that game all day long....do you really think the difference in Rivers and Tannehill are audibles??
     
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  17. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Its not a game, its fact.

    Tannehill can only pick one of two plays or run the one he's given. You cannot tell me that doesn't hurt things.
     
  18. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    so our goal is to waste tannehill's career the way the chargers have wasted rivers?
     
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  19. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    QB's with a worst sack percentage but a better YPC...

    Marriott (a rookie)
    Mccown/ Manziel
    Alex Smith
    Russel Wilson
    Blake Bortles (he has a 0.13 better sack % but he is 7th in the NFL in YPC

    Only one of these teams has a better WR corp imo (Jax), and only one a better rb (Sea)
     
  20. Rocky Raccoon

    Rocky Raccoon Greasepaint Ghost Staff Member

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    I'm not sure why this really matters though. Our offensive scheme puts a priority on the short pass game. It's a YAC system. I wish we'd push the ball down field more too, but a lot of that is the system and a poor pass blocking unit.
     
  21. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    The game is I provided data proving what you suggested, and you just keep moving down the line of "reasons". It does hurt things, I've been *****ing about the handcuff on a QB you are paying 100M. It not only handicaps Ryan, it handicaps the offense and it handicaps your W's. Lazor needs to go as much as anyone.
     
  22. BigNastyDB13

    BigNastyDB13 Well-Known Member

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    Hopefully they fix the oline without using a 1st rounder. That 1st pick needs to be a playmaker. Doesn't matter what side of the ball it's on. Team is in desperate need of playmakers. I'm not certain Thill would be any better than slightly above avg with a good oline. He needs a dominant run game if this offense is ever to be considered great under him.
     
  23. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    exactly. the offense is predicated on getting yac. its why we throw short of the first down marker on third downs so often. receivers are supposed to get yac. plus a short passing scheme mitigates a fierce pass rush
     
  24. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    3 of those systems are West Coast which has many of the same YAC principles and focuses on short quick passes (generally) and as far as Pass blocking, they all get sacked more relative to pass plays ran.

    You are right though, having a bad OL and running a WCO isn't ideal for deep passes, but either way the guys listed are in similar or worst positions in similar offenses yet performing better.
     
  25. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I'm not moving down anything, I'm saying there's no QB who thrives who has:

    - a crap oline
    - a crap OC
    - an underused run game
    - and is not allowed to even audible
    =============================
    - and up until this year a horrible receiving corp

    Those aren't excuses. Those are reasons. Those are really significant reasons and they are so significant that virtually no other QB could surmount them.
     
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  26. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    i'm ok with not using a 1st rounder but i would want to use a 2nd rounder on a future OT and then pick up a guard in free agency. not a break your bank guard just one that is serviceable and dependable. if we do that we can concentrate on getting playmakers on defense. wouldd love to see a beast OLB to pair up with jelani jenkins next year
     
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  27. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    It appears Tannehill has more input and in game decision making than his fans claim.

    Lazor gets criticized for the pass/run ratio but it appears that Tannehill is able and does forgo run plays so he can pass the ball.

    "Let me say this first overall, before I talk about the audibles, Ryan does as much in decision making as any quarterback I’ve coached and he can," Lazor replied Thursday, admitting he was informed ahead of the press conference that he would be asked about the topic. "He’s very intelligent. I’ve been in systems where the quarterback’s at the line making a lot of calls and it’s easy to turn on certain TV right now and see certain quarterbacks gesturing dummies, yelling all this stuff. I’ve been in systems where we did not audible at all. In the Jet game, Ryan changed the play by words. Some people would call that an audible, by hand signal. He had plays where a run was called and without having to change anything, he decided to throw the ball. So if people don’t think he makes those decisions, then we’ve done a heck of a job with our disguises.”

    Ryan also is able to alter pass protections:

    "If anyone blitzes you that much, you’ve got to identify the problem of what’s going on," Campbell explained on Wednesday. "He’s had the ability to alter protections or re-idea if he felt he needed to because he understands the problems.

    http://www.thephinsider.com/2015/10...-of-the-week-can-ryan-tannehill-audible-maybe

    Lazor is also on record as saying most of the plays called have a deep option built into them and it is up to Tannehill to identify when it is a good option and go for it.

     
  28. BigNastyDB13

    BigNastyDB13 Well-Known Member

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    Something so clear to the rest of us and seems like such common sense makes you wonder why they don't let Thill audible. Is Lazor, Philbin and nke Campbell all incredibly stupid by handicapping our offense or does it have something to do with Thill? I have no idea but there's gotta be a reason something so obvious to us continues to go without correction.
     
  29. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    You forgot a crap defense that forces you out of your gameplan by the 3rd quarter
     
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  30. BigNastyDB13

    BigNastyDB13 Well-Known Member

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    You changed your criteria after he presented you with a QB who can succeed despite less than ideal circumstances. There's a lot of QBs who have played better than Thill this year. Some aren't in ideal situations. Give the guy credit for proving you wrong instead of changing your original stance. Mr. Holier than Thou
     
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  31. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    So after I gave you an example, you start barking "audibles"??

    Not that you're wrong in having that as a reason, i agree and think its an even bigger reason than ppl think. Ive been saying this for over a year, not just after this article. But to claim that Rivers being able to audible is the only reason he overcomes the garbage he has around him is ridiculous.
     
  32. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    originally it was because tannehill was overthinking it and it effected his passing. makes sense for a 3rd yr QB. 4th year I would let him audible again. This isnt uncommon however. I would say about 60 percent of the QBs are hamstrung this way. The game changed alot in the last twenty years. coordinators want more control for some reason
     
  33. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    Seems like I'm forced to do it on a daily basis..
     
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  34. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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  35. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I added to my criteria when I found out he wasn't allowed to audible.

    Look back, I linked the article.

    You're not get a "gotcha" on me, so stop trying.

    This is has nothing to do with not being in an "ideal" situation. Show me a QB who thrives with those limitations.

    No more crap, no more back and forth, just back up your bull ****.
     
  36. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I swear to god, you Chuckleheads need to stop sharing the same brain.

    I linked the article I just found. New info got added because new info was just brought to my attention.

    Not even half an hour ago in fact:
    http://www.thephins.com/forums/showthread.php?87751-Will-we-be-able-to-rebuild-the-OLine-before-we-have-to-get-rid-of-Tannehill&p=2702430&viewfull=1#post2702430
     
  37. BigNastyDB13

    BigNastyDB13 Well-Known Member

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    I've noticed. At least the guy has a good defense mechanism. He's probably had years of getting punked to build a bullet proof defense mechanism.
     
  38. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    LOL, so you expect anyone to believe that you all of a sudden decided that there actually WAS Qb's who could overcome the reasons you listed JUST....AS...LONG.....AS....THEY.....CAN.....AUDIBLE.

    Really?

    You would save a helluva lot more face by admitting your comment was skewed rather than selling that BS.
     
  39. Rock Sexton

    Rock Sexton Anti-Homer

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    Check out the boxscore and these juggernauts Rivers was working with in Week 9. :pointlol:

    [​IMG]
     
  40. BigNastyDB13

    BigNastyDB13 Well-Known Member

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    He already "gotcha" . Too late for that bud. You're the one who said show me a QB....and he did. You should be used to him owning you by now. I'm embarrassed for you bro. My condolences.
     
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