OV against the best left tackle in the game..

Imo, it all depends on how much he's asking for, because I wouldn't break the bank for the guy, 4 or 5 mil per would be about as much as I would want to pay.

 

OV played really well against Dallas.. still need to see him do that consistently because he hasn't in previous games. And as Rocky Raccoon says, it'll come down to price. Wake potentially no longer being here of course frees up cap space so who knows.. maybe we can keep 2 or 3 (or all 3?) of Miller, Matthews and OV, assuming OV actually shows he can play like he did against Dallas more consistently.

 

Like I said, I'd rather keep him and Rishard, let Lamar walk.

 

If you let Lamar walk, do you draft someone to replace him or do you sign a free agent?

 

I have to totally agree. As underused as he is, I have him as our offensive MVP so far.... And not so far down on the list of best players on our roster. He has made a huge jump in my eyes the last two seasons.. I was never really a fan.


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There is no doubt that he has spent time in the offseason working on his craft. It has paid dividends in my opinion. Unless we can get someone as good or better than him, I think we should do what we can to make sure he is on the team next season.

OV has played very well vs Dallas and I want to see that continue. Perhaps a light came on in his head if maybe something or someone lit a fire under him. If this continues with him improving, it make it difficult to decide who stays and who goes test the market.

 

I'd honestly would like to see what would happen if we used him normally on a consistent basis. I mean, I feel like that is a no-brainer but I am a bit curious.

 

OV was non existent the first six weeks but has really come on the last few. I resign him. We have way too many holes to fill to be letting talented players leave. Up to the next coach to motivate him

 

Going to boil down to keeping Wake or OV

 

Well you don't base a players contract on one game, he hasn't played great in every game, reflected by his 3 sacks.

 

And what of all the games he's rolled donuts against lesser tackles? I mean so far this year, in 10 games, he's made an impact in 3: New England, Philadelphia and last week against Dallas. To me, he's a solid player, but he's not worth what he's going to ask for and he's been a square peg in a round hole in this defense since he was drafted. I suppose if you got Jim Schwartz in as DC next year and he's for both DEs playing 7 and 9 techniques constantly, I'd look to bring him back, but as of now...I'm not inclined to. Also makes me wonder of Tyran Smith played injured against Miami; he wore a brace in their game against Carolina on Thursday.

I'd rather keep Miller (best player on offense this year) and Matthews (breakout and insurance against Parker's foot/Stills needing re-signed) than Vernon. I think Quinton Coples being back in a 4-3 gives you very similar production to Vernon and is a better scheme-fit for just about any 4-3 front than Vernon, IMO, especially if you're hellbent on keeping Wake, which you ought to be.

 

Just in time to save our season!

 

Same struggles occurred in 2013 and 2014 when he was healthy though. He's miscast in this defensive system and all too often is negated. Now, if you're bringing in Jim Schwartz and allowing your DEs to play wide, I think OV is a really nice fit there. If you watch Willie Young/Cliff Avril in Detroit when Schwartz was there or Jerry Hughes in Buffalo from 2014, that's a role OV could play. I also like having a big "base" end in Coples who can play the strong side DE spot.

I think Cam Wake naturally fits that D as well coming off the edge, but can you afford him and OV? I'd be more inclined to see if I can draft Shaq Lawson or Emmanuel Ogbah. Ogbah is pretty much a clone of Ziggy Ansah.

 

Good teams don't let good players in their prime that they spend 4 years developing walk away. I'd find a way to keep him. If someone wants to give him 10 million a year then good luck to him but if we can keep him reasonably then its a no brainer. Wake has maybe one or two years left and with a serious injury at his age he could very well be done being a full time player.

 

Looking at OV's best 3 games this year: New England, Philly and Dallas, he faced a backup LT in Cameron Fleming for the Patriots; Lane Johnson, who switched from RT to LT that game because Jason Peters was out, and Tyron Smith.

What about the games earlier in the year? How badly was he hurt against Trent Williams, Luke Joeckel, Cordy Glenn, and D'Brickashaw Ferguson? What about after the bye week where he didn't make much of an impact against Duane Brown? Beating Taylor Lewan of Tennessee...is that all that impressive? You can go back and find streaks of games like this against pretty much all teams in 2013 and 2014.

Vernon's a solid player, but he wants "great" player money; I'm not sure he ever gives you "good" player production. I mean, this past week against Smith was literally the best game Olivier Vernon's ever played as a Miami Dolphin.

I'd wait and see who the HC and DC are before you even start negotiations with Vernon just to make sure he's a scheme fit. Just my personal opinion.

 

Still mad at him for costing us Jax game. But he has looked great lately.

 

I'll go the other way because I think it's more productive to focus on how expendable each player is. Sometimes it's better to be a cynic in these situations, lol.

With Matthews you have a solid WR that is big enough to play outside. Matthews is entering his prime, has reliable hands and has displayed a relatively good chemistry with the QB in brief periods of action. His numbers are very good this season but it's been a break-out year for him by any measure which means with a big contract will come a big projection that he'll be able to keep doing what he's doing. Another downside is that he's not in a position where I'd expect his numbers to go up. While he's on pace for 65-70 receptions, 1,000-1,100 yards and 6-7 TDs, there's a very real possibility it's a high water mark. Given the QB's history of putting up modest totals in yards and TDs as well as the offense needing to shift more towards the running game, I suspect we're seeing Matthews in his most ideal environment. He's getting to play the role of a starter in an offense which is set to target him roughly 100 times. I don't want to draw an unfair comparison with a guy who is not as physically talented but we saw Brian Hartline put himself in this same position after having two good 1k-yard seasons. That went south quickly as we saw he simply wasn't a dominant receiver.

Knowing those targets may drop with more emphasis on the run and with Landry already firmly established and Devante Parker sure to be coming on, Matthews' role seems more likely to shrink than grow. Realistically, Matthews is over-producing this year and the timing is perfect for him as he's set to get a new contract. It's likely he'll come back down to Earth next season as the competition gets tighter amongst the WRs. Keep in mind that Stills and Parker have not had the time to develop chemistry with the QB that Matthews has for 4 years. I think Miami has to acknowledge everything I've said and accept the fact that if another team offers Matthews big money, they may just have to let him go. In many ways, that decision was made when the team selected Devante Parker in the 1st round last year.

After all, there's nothing wrong with Parker, Landry, and Stills as your regular rotation--which was what was expected back in camp. Those 3 are young, promising WRs whose strengths are complementary. Matthews break-out is a nice surprise but he never really factored into your plans and that's why you drafted the way you did. If you do re-sign Matthews, I think you have to seriously consider dropping Stills in 2017 or Landry in 2018 when their contracts expire and they hit free agency. I have to admit I like the look of the offense more with Matthews in than I do with say, Landry, who is smaller and so it might be wise to take note of how a WR-corp that features a big guy (Parker), a small guy (Landry) and a speedy guy (Stills) could cause consistency issues with your QB. There was certainly a point made this season to get rid of that inconsistency. Wallace was fast but lacked size. Hartline was slow. Gibson was small. There's a lot to be said for having consistency at the WR and Miami finally has a bit with Matthews in the mix. It would likely be better to have Matthews and Parker paired up as big WRs and let either the small guy or the speedy guy go depending on what you felt you needed. People probably don't like the notion of letting Landry go, but it's the truth. To me, Matthews is actually a more valuable piece than Landry and Stills has the potential based on his physical attributes to be a more valuable weapon as well. I don't want to get into it too much because I'm biased away from his arrogant attitude it'll cause some hurt feelings but I see Parker, Matthews and Stills being a much more potent combo, in regards to potential. There's a lot to be said against potential though.



As far as Miller is concerned, he's fast and doesn't fumble which leads to a good YPC average and a relatively trustworthy player which fans appreciate. However, Miami is clearly dying for a more powerful RB that can add some level of brute force to their ground game. It's been missing since Ronnie Brown started his decline. I don't see Miller offering precisely what the team needs nor do I see him as a shifty, agile, hard-to-wrap-up king of RB so he has to work on being a receiver in the way that Giovani Bernard is. This year the numbers are there but I think Miller, because of what he lacks is unfortunately a complementary player without big-time projections and you don't sign contracts based on big projections. With Ajayi coming on, I think we can already see what a slightly thicker more powerful RB would look like. It's more effective! We all saw how quickly things changed when Moreno came to town. He was a power back who could break tackles and predictably the O-line fed off of that energy. That's really what Miami lacks and it's one of the reasons the look so inept within a division that features several stout fronts. Miller is small and his role should not be as large as it is. Paying him a lot of money to be a part-time player feels wrong because it is. This is why I advocated Gurley in the draft. He'd have been a nice asset to have at this point in time. Maybe Ajayi can be that but I suspect Miami still needs to complement him. I don't think I'd give a big money contract to Miller knowing I'm just paying for his speed. I'd might rather take that money and invest it in a more practical free agent on the line or on defense where it's going to make more of an impact, especially knowing how many good RBs are available in the mid-rounds these days.



When you get to Vernon you see he's simply inconsistent. Too often he's late to the party in the backfield or simply a non-factor. He just doesn't have the speed or the burst of the elites at his position. He's good but quite frankly there's a lot of good in the NFL. When you are a starter in a premier position for going on 4 years, you're going to flash a few times. That should be expected. The problem is Vernon's 11-sack sophomore season is looking like an anomaly. He had 3.5 sacks his rookie year, he was disappointing last year with 6.5 and this year he's on pace for just 5. Vernon's play has made it clear that he is not the dominant player we thought he might become after that stand-out sophomore campaign. Over the last 2 years he's been relatively average. If he were a better run defender you could argue in his favor based on being an all-around asset but he's not consistent when setting an edge.



So if you ask me you have 3 guys, none of which are really necessary for Miami to maintain what they have and if you're quest is to find the answer that allows Miami to grow into a Play-off team I'm not sure these are anything more than fringe players. These guys aren't going to be what does that for you. The up side is that you could lose them all and not be hurt too badly. The prospect of keeping 1 or even 2 of them seems like more of a nice surprise than it does an urgent and pressing matter. I think whoever Miami does get to keep, they'll be fine. I'd would't overpay for any of them. Whoever might come back at a good price is just icing on the cake.

 

This team certainly will need more speed and power coming form the edge. Whether it's in the form of a DE or an OLB. 3-4 or 4-3, you absolutely need to generate some speed and disruptive power from the edges. It also helps contain those edges which this team has been lacking. You see it when Wake is out. He's really the only guy, when healthy, who can contain and generate speed and power from the edges and we all see the obvious effect. It's tough when the OLB has to cover all of these good slot guys and TEs around the league now, but somehow, there has to be a way. It is something this team desperately needs.

 

Man you should write a review for a Dolphins newspaper. I'd read that! If this was for the start of the new season, you'd hype me up!!

 

I agree we need some more speed. I think it's needed at both DE and LB. We need to put fear into opposing quarterbacks.

 

I'm more interested in re-signing Olivier Vernon as a 3-4 OLB than as a DE.

He needs to be wide of tackle, and I think he's also at least better in the run game standing up.

 

I do wonder how much of a target he'd be for 3-4 teams. This may seem like a stretch, but he reminds me a bit of Ahmad Brooks when Brooks was first in the NFL with the Bengals. Brooks found his niche as a 3-4 SAM, and I think OV could very well do the same.

That said, I'd be intrigued to see what Jim Schwartz would do with him in those 4-3, wide-9 fronts. From watching some of Buffalo from last year, he played Jerry Hughes standing up at DE a good bit in both base and sub looks. I'd be okay with bringing back Vernon for a role like that.

 

I thought he said productuon would drop if a bigger back was brought in?

Anyhow, while it's hard to imagine dropping a guy (esp. a fan favorite), we all know the life of the NFL. Miami may have cap issues, etc. Unfortunately, it's the way it is.

 

Greg was saying he'd prefer Stills over Landry if you kept Parker and Matthews. Landry for me is way too valuable to get rid of, even if on paper one can imagine how in the best possible case (if everyone performs at a theoretical optimum) a different set of WR skill sets would be better.

Other than the comment on Landry, the main problem I have with saying it's OK to get rid of Matthews because Parker is there is that Parker has great potential but is still an unknown, while Matthews is proven. You don't get rid of young, proven above average NFL players just because there is potential waiting in the wings. If I had to choose, I'd get rid of Stills, not Landry, and resign Matthews (though I see no problem keeping all 4).

 

Just trade Tannehill to the Rams for a piece rom their defensive front and a low round pick. If there was ever a team that needs a QB it's them and he'd be exactly what Fisher wants; safe enough.

Double up at the QB spot and roll on down the line. Tannehill is not the answer and we should move on sooner rather than later.

 

Ah, okay. Missed that.

I can see Greg's point, but disagree. Landry is so much more than just a proven player now. He's a playmaker, and he has (individually) won games for the team. He makes the tough yards on more occasions than not. Dare I say he's flat out special? Some of those first downs he makes (that most don't make) because of angles and juke-ability help this team immensely.

Fastest? No. Size? No. But he is a guy who seems to not give up. Love guys like that. Fiery.

 

I agree, no way would I choose Stills over Landry, Stills epitomizes the one trick pony, and is usually just a decoy while Landry is the heartbeat of the offense, Stills is fairly easily replaced and Landry is not, very few Landry's around, most teams have a Stills.

We need more Landry's on this team, the kid is a fighter, and that inspires others and it's hard to put a price tag on that.

 

He is much quicker as a stand up player vs being in the DE stance, his first step is much much better.

As for Landry, keep in mind he does more then just as a Wr, top 5 in all purpose yds, his return skills are exceptional, when he is not doing stupid things.

 

Haha...I knew that would piss you off!

I didn't say I would prefer Stills over Landry, just that the option is out there. I think the potential of Parker, Matthews and Stills is far greater than any combo with Landry simply because a tenacious player with speed is potentially more of a threat than a tenacious player without.

Again, the issue is Miami has 4 guys and will likely remain with just 3. There are combinations that will leave out Parker, Matthews and Stills just as there is one that leaves out Landry. Everything must be considered. Potential can be nonsense, I agree. I mentioned that in fact.

Personally I don't care for Landry's arrogant attitude but that's neither here nor there.

I didn't say the Dolphins should get rid of Landry, simply that it was an option--no different than getting rid of Matthews or Stills or Parker (see below). In fact, he'll be super cheap for the next 2 years at least so any conversation is very philosophical at this point. What I did say was that I liked Matthews size more than I do Landry's because having a smaller WR adds unevenness to the position. If you have Parker, Stills and Landry you have 3 very different WRs which is problematic for your QB. We've already seen those problems develop: Wallace (fast), Gibson (small), Hartline (slow), etc. If you re-sign Matthews and agree to replace either Stills or Landry you get a more even rotation of WRs. Cbrad says he'd replace Stills. Okay, that's a predictable response for anyone looking at the production but what would we have said last year about Matthews? We'd have replaced him pretty quickly given a similar set of circumstances yet he's today maybe the most legitimate WR the team features week-to-week! So with regards to Stills vs Landry, I think it comes down to how you see the offense developing particularly beyond the end of Landry's contract in 2017. If you build the right offense Stills could become a big-time threat so again, we're talking philosophically about potential--which certainly makes a lot of fans uncomfortable. The upside is, this is just conversation.

I think at some point when we break down the offense and ask ourselves what we like and what we don't I think we may find Landry is less to do with the parts we like than we think. He has the most targets of anyone on the offense yet many of these plays are screens, for example. I don't like that play and I don't think it belongs in an offense with Ryan Tannehill who's strength is standing in the pocket and pushing the ball down the field. If you have a running QB like Cam Newton for example, you can stretch the defense with those plays because they're scared of your up-the-gut QB/RB game. In Miami, that play typifies what's frustrating about Lazor's offense. I don't dislike Landry. I just think he's no better than the rest of these guys and if anything he's helping to feed the conservative nature of the offense because the offense itself is largely set about featuring Landry instead of Parker or Stills. It would be difficult to change that in one week, but it could easily be changed with a new off-season and certainly by the time 2018 gets here and Landry's contract has expired so it must be considered in the long run.

Tannehill should be pushing the ball much deeper down the field and he needs an OC that's going to build that kind of offense around him. In that kind of offense--which I think has to come at some point if the Play-offs are really a goal--Landry won't get 10 targets per game with a bunch being behind the LOS! If you are pushing the ball down the field guys like Parker, Matthews and Stills have a lot to offer--at least as much as Jarvis Landry. Miami will have to make decisions about both Matthews and Stills before they do Landry, however we need to consider the long-run and more importantly, we need to consider what kind of WRs are valuable in building an offense around Tannehill.

So, you can talk about attitude but that doesn't mean as much to me as simply building the correct style of offense to properly utilize what the QB gives you and to actually go about winning games, getting to the Play-offs, etc.