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Questions still remain at QB

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Fin-O, Nov 26, 2015.

  1. PhinsMondayNitro

    PhinsMondayNitro Active Member

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    Tannehill = Chad Henne 2.0
     
  2. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    Why wouldn't you want Miami to have a team with an elite QB? That makes no sense to me. An elite QB can make up for weaknesses and when a team goes through bumpy transitions which all teams do. Do you know how hard it is to have a team with an elite OL, running game, receivers and defense year in and year out all in the hopes of making a below-to-average QB look good? Look at New England with a porous OL this year and WRs that might be the worst in the league with all their injuries and Brady is able to overcome that and make them look like a great offensive team leading them to a 10-1 record.

    I would argue that Newton and Wilson might be considered elite QBs at this point (Newton for sure. The guy is just a WINNER as is Wilson). And if not they at least have the door open and most of their body in. Bridgewater is doing a fine job managing the game and not turning the ball over for only being in his second year.
     
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  3. LI phinfan

    LI phinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    No offense 25, but I thought Moore looked awful in the preseason.. I was worried about him even being ok as a back up.


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  4. scotty_irnbru

    scotty_irnbru Well-Known Member

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    You weren't the only one. The general feeling seemed to be he looked awful and should be gone. We know what Moore is. We've had this conversation.
     
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  5. LI phinfan

    LI phinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Thanks Scotty...I thought I was losing my mind. Always liked Moore as a back up... Starting is a different story. How long before people mention Cleo Lemon or Jay Fiedler?


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  6. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

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    That's exactly the model Miami should go with. No pass happy Dolphins team will win consistently late in the year. Jimmy and Parcells new it. Shula new it before he fell in love with Marino's arm and even with #13 he never won anything.

    My vision for this year's offense was 30-35 passes and 30-35 runs per game. Injuries played a role but there was never any real effort to do it. The blame game and scapegoats aren't my thing, I just k ow it didn't happen and IMO it's a big part of why the offense has struggled.
     
  7. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

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    Agreed.

    If Tannehill played better Miami would have one more win. The Jax game. The lack of a run game has been a much bigger issue.
     
  8. bakedmatt

    bakedmatt Well-Known Member

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    Jacksonville? I seem to remember he played very well in Jacksonville.

    30 for 44 (68.18) | 359 yds | 2 TDs | 0 Ints | 108.0 Rat
     
  9. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    He played better than most around here gave him credit for, but "very well" may be a little strong.
     
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  10. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

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    You make a lot of good points. Special props for the rush stats.
    My problem is that for all Tannehill's flaws the offense can barely make a first down or two without the QB being on time and on target repeatedly. Houston was he only game where the offense was productive outside of Tannehill. He has no run game to lean on, the defense is inconsistent at best. I'd love to see Wilson come down here and try to win in this environment. Sunday was the first time in his career he won a game where the opponent scored 24 points.
     
  11. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    And how do you know this?

    First, the coaches you are referring to coached in a league without the advantages given to the passing game in place today. Jimmy and Parcells weren't all that successful here.

    Second, plenty of teams win it all without a solid running game.

    Since the Tom Brady era began in 2001 the following is where Super Bowl winners have ranked respectively in Rushing Yards Per Game (13, 27, 27, 7, 5, 18, 4, 23, 6, 24, 32, 11, 4, 18)...that breaks down to 5 times in the top 10, 5 times in the bottom 10, and 4 times 11-18 range. The team that lost the Super Bowl have only finished in the top 10 in Rushing Yards Per Game 6 times in the last 20 years and twice finished 32nd in the league in rushing yards.

    In today's NFL, there is "NO" absolute one way to win. What is constant is good QB play. And the few teams that didn't have a top 10 QB using QB rating (3 overall since the Brady era...Flacco, E Manning, Roethlisberger) that won the Super Bowl all played top 10 football when in the playoffs (using the QB rating system).

    It's truly a QB league nowadays. Really always has been. The average rank (using QB rating going all the way back to the merger in 1970) of QBs the year their team won the Super Bowl is 6.4 and the Super Bowl losing team QBs average rank is 6.6
     
  12. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

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    He was very good that day, in spurts. But 7 straight scoreless drives in a tie game led to the loss. A couple plays here or there would have made the difference. My point is that Miami is barely competitive in most of this year's losses, better play from the QB would not change the end result outside of that Jax game.
     
  13. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    Thats actually false. And Wilson is an elusive QB, of course he would do better behind this OL than Ryan.
     
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  14. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    I know all Qb's benefit from luck and Ryan deserves all that comes his way....but he under threw an open Richard Matthews but luckily on that play a bounce went our way.
     
  15. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

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    Good post, I agree with you. But I'm talking about Miami specifically not the NFL in general.

    This is a team that lives and practices is 75-90 degree weather year round. Theyre at a major disadvantage going to NE, NY, Buff, etc late in the year. Especially if they are pass happy. Marino couldn't do it and Tannehill isn't even close to that good. Run the ball, play D is the model most likely tp hqve success. I think history will back me up there. We ain't wining ish asking Tannehill to throw 40 times a game that's for sure.
     
  16. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The #1 predictor of a win is passer rating differential. That's it. Pass offense, and pass defense.

    http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/content/40-and-fabulous-praise-passer-rating/14959/

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  17. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

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    Wild play. But the one I remember most is the FG before half time when the refs gave Jax an extra three yards.

    If we cut up the throws RT made that day I think it'd rank as one of the most impressive vids of his career. He got lucky on that 4 vertical play to Matthews but Matthews and Landry dropped a few gimmes and Fox was very bad. The run game was it's usual dumpster fire.

    Overall I blame Tannehill for his lack of pocket presence and unwillingness to take risks down the field. I make zero excuses on that but there are so many other things wrong on this team.
     
  18. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

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  19. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    There are...and that was one of the few games he was ripped for that he didn't really deserve.
     
  20. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

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    What's false?

    Of course Wilson is mobile. He makes a ton of plays. But he also blows a ton of easy throws because of his shortcomings as a rhythm pocket passer and without a Beast Mode type in the backfield with him I think he'd be much less effective.
     
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  21. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    1 in 2014 exactly 24
    1 in 2013 exactly 24

    He's never won a game when his defense allowed more than 24.

    How often has the Dolphins defense allowed more than 24?
     
  22. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

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    I just wish he'd do SOMETHING. If it's 3rd and 9 near midfield do not throw a frigging 2 yard pass to Landry. Ever. Throw it up for grabs to a WR down the field. Scramble around, he's go the athletic ability to do it. So what if he takes a sack or a INT, it's OK in that situation. If he's truly being told not to audible that's a travesty. He has more job security than Lazor, Philbin, or anyone else on the staff. Change the play. If they don't like it screw them. That's what it means to be a franchise QB, if he want to be one he better act like it.
     
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  23. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

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    Thanks.
     
  24. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

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    You're still arguing semantics. Us out rushing or matching high totals of other teams is a good running game. Simple as that.


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  25. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

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    Appreciate it. Took a while on my phone to do it flipping back and forth.

    I think Wilson would make the offense more dynamic. His game opens up the running game a ton. I doubt the QB before him did the same.


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  26. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    No Beast in the backfield Sunday and all he did was throw for 345 yards and 5 TD passes on 30 attempts in leading Seattle to 19, 4th quarter points to get a come-from-behind win over a solid Steelers defense.
     
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  27. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Nope. that is the result.
     
  28. Rocky Raccoon

    Rocky Raccoon Greasepaint Ghost Staff Member

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    Of course I'd want an elite quarterback. I never said I wouldn't. Elite quarterbacks are rare and hard to find though.
     
  29. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Exactly, there's only what, 3, maybe 4 in the league you could consider elite. All you need is one capable of winning.
     
  30. Phins_Fan_87

    Phins_Fan_87 Phins and Heat fan Club Member

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    [video=twitter;671837938037211136]https://twitter.com/AbramsonPBP/status/671837938037211136[/video]

    LOL
     
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  31. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    In Seattles losses this year they are averaging 25.4 ppg.

    You wanna guess what we average on offense per loss???


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  32. Rocky Raccoon

    Rocky Raccoon Greasepaint Ghost Staff Member

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    You aren't watching the Steelers enough if you think their defense is solid. They're not as bad as we are, but they're not exactly solid.
     
  33. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    Steelers D were only giving up 19.1 PPG heading into the game. If a team is only giving up 1 more point on defense than our offense averages then I'm going to stick with solid.
     
  34. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    "Had" by the way...allowed 30 and a monster day to Big Ben...scored 39 to win the game.
     
  35. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    Thats a loose statement though to be honest, what Qb isn't capable of winning?
     
  36. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

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    And he deserves credit for that. But if we're talking about his career as a whole then Lynch and a consistently great defense have to be factored in.
     
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  37. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    LOL.. great answer.

    Yeah, it should be pointed out that: 1) all these "predictors" are really stats that try to predict who won AFTER the end of the game!!, and 2) passer rating includes TD/A so the score is partially included in the formula (makes sense it has such a high correlation).

    Anyway, jdang307 is right about the importance of passing offense and defense for successful teams, but it's worth noting that passing Y/A and INT/A are included in passer rating and both of them have pretty high correlations with winning by themselves, so passing TD/A isn't adding much extra predictive power (once you have Y/A and INT/A). This means it's unlikely that passing TD/A matters much more (if at all) than rushing TD/A (educated guess.. not certain it's true).

    So for purposes of asking what the team should improve on.. it's probably best to focus on offensive and defensive Y/A and when possible (lower probability occurrence) INT/A instead of passer rating.
     
  38. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    yes, in certain situations qbs can win games..its called making individual plays in crucial situations, where the recipient is just that, the recipient of that great individual play...a great play by a qb usually is an incredible read/decision, a great scramble, or a swift manipulation of the pocket to reset and fire.
     
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  39. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

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    Good post.

    YPA is a stat and no stand alone stat explains much of anything in football. Might as well say the key to winning is an elite QB. Miami doesn't have one, or a reliable running game. They use the short pass to augment their run game and it drags their YPA down but it's necessary for trying to win games.
     
  40. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Yes, so in his entire career, he has one game where they've won when the defense allowed more than 24.

    Tannehill routinely has teams scoring 25+ that he had to try to match, with no run game.

    As comical as it is to compare their skillsets, it's comical to act like their situations are even remotely the same.
     

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