OV against the best left tackle in the game..

That should not be an option. The option should stay wayyyy out there. That's been a problem with this franchise. You don't trade away special talent in its prime. We'll be facing one of those today. There's been times when Landry practically carried the team on his own. He's been the only playmaker. You don't trade that away. His speed didn't seem to hurt him when he's returned a punt for a TD. You definitely do not trade a talent like that away. You don't get rid of him for a guy just because that guy is fast or whatever. That doesn't matter. You take a proven playmaker over a faster player with some supposed "potential" every time.

 

I agree with your logic but I don't see Landry as the player you do, otherwise I'd happily concede. We don't disagree on how to value the product, we simply disagree on the product itself which is fine in my opinion.

With so much talent in the stable I see this as nothing more than a typical business decision as they say. We live in an era wherein productive WRs are available straight out of college. WR has become the new RB. Landry himself helps prove that point. There's very little learning curve as these players hit the NFL stage because they're so well groomed compared to the past. They typically mature within 2 years if they're playing the hardest positions (i.e. Hopkins). Guys who play positions which require less development often produce right away (i.e. Landry).

The reality is, Miami has a 1st round WR waiting in the wings who looks like a big-play guy who'll eat of space on the outside. They may guarantee money to another very good WR this year in Rishard Matthews. Those two will be the bulk of your WR assets if things go well. Depending on how the offense in restructured, how Parker emerges and how Stills plays, we may also see the team commit money to keeping it's biggest vertical threat.

Put simply, there is A LOT that is going to happen before 2018 when Landry needs to be re-signed. We could see Tannehill become a premier QB in a vertical, play-action offense. We could see things fall apart and Tannehill get released as well! We cannot say that the WR who is currently featured in this offense is someone the team must re-sign in 2018. We simply cannot dictate that no matter how much "common sense" it may seem to be.

Keep in mind, we're also hoping for a running game that is more emphasized. If and when that happens, it will be the Stills, Parker and Matthews who benefit with down-the-field play-action as much if not more than Landry.

My point here is that Miami may find themselves in a position wherein they have committed money to other talented WRs, invested in the position and have to face the fact that what production is coming from Landry can be replicated by other, developmental WRs.

Yes, right now we see an offense every week that features Jarvis Landry. For now, it looks like losing Landry would be the sky falling. However, franchises face this all the time and Miami has done it themselves with releasing and replacing guys who were thought to be untouchable.

I would argue that the problem of the franchise is not simply one of releasing good players (i.e. Welker) but one of not making smart business decisions. The real failure in Miami is that they have not treated football like a business and have rather played into the idea that single players are determining factors. The list of large FA signings shows this very well.

The simple fact is that we don't see the product the same way because in my heart, I want to see an offense that features Landry less and Parker, Matthews and Stills more. Why? Because I beleive they all have more potential and I'd like to collect more information which would help me determine if that potential can be unlocked or not.

You know what sucks? Having to watch a player go unused for 3 years only to have him break-out in a major way in the last year of his contract! This is the problem with Matthews now. We're hoping we've seen enough to warrant a long-term deal but it will be based on one year of production. Unfortunately it will have been the same with Stills next year. He's not playing enough now to get a real sense of what he's worth.

I agree, based on snaps, Landry is much more valuable to the team now than Stills. However, everyone would agree the current offensive arrangement is at least a bit questionable. Fact is, we need to see what players like Parker, Stills and Ajayi can do before we can honest gauge the value of other assets like Matthews, Miller and eventually (a long time from now) Landry.

 

That's the way a lot of people feel.

It's understandable emotion.

Fans have said that about many players in the past.

 

I'm not going to sit here and argue against Landry to his biggest fan. We should all at this point understand that team building must come before our loyalties to any single player. If you believe building a championship team is the top priority then it's about getting the right tools to do that. It's not about giving contracts to every guy that has a good year. It's not about signing all the fan favorites. It's not about making the biggest FA spashes in the off-season. Those things are short-sighted moves.


Fact is, Tannehill is very inconsistent when it comes to getting the ball to his WRs. It seems only natural that the WR to which he makes the easiest throws prospers the most as that WR is affected the least. So question is, does Landry appear more valuable because he is so or does he appear more valuable because most everyone else is so under-utilized?

Well, this is a sub-.500 football team. It's a pretty lousy offense. Things aren't very good. The QB leaves a lot to be desired. There's no doubt that many offensive pieces are not being put in a position to shine. We can see an obvious example in how TE Jordan Cameron came in as one of the best receiving TEs in the league and is currently a mediocre weapon whose presence is barely noticed. What changed? The QB and the offense did. As those things improve--whether that be be offensive design or by an influx of fresh QB talent--the weapons around Landry will look better as they will get a fair shake to show what they can do.

Fact is, you can go on featuring Landry as long as you like. After 10 weeks we know what that offense looks like. I think most people would admit that eventually you'll find you don't quite have enough to get over the hump. At some point you have to develop a serious down-the-field passing attack or an unstoppable rushing game and neither one exists in Miami. You'll have 2 years to do that before the Landry question comes up. Just as Green Bay let Randall Cobb test the waters, I think Miami may wind up doing the same depending on how they handle Matthews, Miller, Stills, and the restructuring of the offense.

It's hard for me to see anyone in Miami as being untouchable right now. In fact, it's hard to take anyone seriously who believes that players can be untouchable when you're talking about rebuilding a franchise. We KNOW that a major factor in the downfall of franchises around the league is an unquestioned commitment to single players in the face of the fact football is a team game. Now, certainly Landry is a talented player with the support of his teammates but he's being made a hero in Miami for doing things which would be considered par for the course on championship teams. Hopefully Miami can keep a player like that around but it's not set in stone.

Nothing is set in stone and that's the point when it comes to building a great team. No single player is bigger than the team.

Outside of Suh given his contract, I think Reshad Jones is about as close to being untouchable as anyone on the team. Certainly nobody on offense has achieved that.

 

Reshad is untouchable because of his play. Suh is because of his contract, but his play is more than good enough to build the franchise around.

After that? Arguably Landry, and his contract only helps that argument (btw.. today's game is just more evidence of his value).

 

I hate that decent play stands out as heroic. This offense absolutely sucks and once again both the OC and the QB have done nothing to change that. Tannehill doesn't seem to be able to see past about 10 yards downfield. You can tell he's slow and uncomfortable making decisions. He's checks down on nearly everything. He just doesn't want to push the ball into the heart of a real defense. Where is Stills? Where is Cameron? I'd ask where Parker is but that dude just seems timid.

The funny thing is, Landry gets wide open on these occasional deep/wheel routes because no one's expecting it. It's a punch to the gut. It's there because it's never there. Nearly every play I've seen so far in the 2nd half has been a short dump-off or a screen. Landry is sort of the archetypal hero in this see of ineptitude. Nearly every pass catcher ought to be able to replicate what Landry's doing yet they don't. That's got to be on the OC and the QB. And I'm sitting here watching Fitzpatrick look like a veteran ace!

I'll say this, if in 2 seasons, Miami doesn't have anything more than just a small-time offense featuring a feisty little WR who's quick, I'll be more than disappointed.

This offense is a joke. It's badly in need of some serious coaching.

 

Hey we agree on all that except your characterization that Landry's play is "decent". Landry is a well above average slot receiver and consistently plays very well, fighting for yards most other WR's wouldn't get.

 

Well, of course he's considered above average. This isn't a criticism of Jarvis Landry. Who said he was a bad player? Call him decent. Call him above average. That's all relatively to who you're making the comparison against. Against the average he beats it but against the league's better weapons he is decent. It's semantics to protect people's feelings. I already said, emotions are something I can respect but they don't have any place in conversations about team building.

There's no question Landry is a valuable asset to a team that needs a feisty slot receiver. The point is you cannot build an effective offense (one that's capable of beating a real defense) around just a slot receiver.

To emphasize this point, Jarvis Landry had nothing short of his best game as a Dolphin today yet the team lost in a blowout. You get that because you have an offense that's featuring a complementary guy. If this offense properly utilized all of it's weapons I would have no case. I'm certainly not criticizing Landry's play. That would be stupid.

It's notable though that on the other side we see a real feature weapon (Marshall) having an even better day compared to Landry with a QB most consider average (Fitzpatrick) while going up against a CB who is by most accounts a decent player (Grimes).

I've said this several times but this isn't a legitimate offense until some of the real weapons starting getting used week-in, week-out. You can't waste your weapons and still be good. Landry is good but he's not capable of winning you games, so at the end of 2015, 2016 and 2017, the Dolphins are going to have to make some tough decisions about all those other guys.

Seems to me they ought to be featuring those weapons more.

 

Yeah, no disagreement there.. go back to my post #46 and tell me if you really disagree that another player on this team is more valuable than Landry excepting Rashad and Suh. I personally don't see it. So all this is a question of the degree to which one should consider options that don't include a certain player (going back to your original argument). I simply think there's no good option without Landry, even if he ideally shouldn't be the focal point of the offense (it's not his fault we have such a bad OC and QB).

 

I think Landry wins that by default though, don't you? I mean, Jones and Suh get in by play while on offense you have Landry as basically the only guy who stands out at all. I think that has a lot to due with the fact the offense elects to feature him and that the QB seems scared to throw to his other weapons consistently. It's just laughable to me that you have so much being wasted. I mean, Jordan Cameron (the freaking TE) is proven to be capable of putting up the same numbers Landry is now!

I mean, for gosh sake's there are starving kids in Africa that would kill to be throwing to that guy!

The fact is this team will have to make a decision about re-signing Matthews at WR. It will have to do the same with regard to Stills next year. Cameron is another decision that will be tough. Miller has to be re-signed.

As I said originally, Landry is pocket change until 2018. Do you ditch Matthews, Cameron and/or Stills assuming you're going to build around Landry? I sure hope not!

 

Yeah I agree with that. It's criminal how this offense isn't taking advantage of Cameron, and a better OC would probably show us Cameron is as valuable as Landry. That's the only other guy though. Wouldn't put Miller or anyone else on Landry's level (potential) value-wise.

 

Not with Tannehill at QB and Lazor calling plays, no. Many of the problems the Dolphins currently have and many of the offensive ideas in Lazor's playbook help to create the perfect conditions for a guy like Landry to thrive. He benefits from this mess while the outside guys struggle to produce.

A hall-mark of bad teams is that they tend to feature a single player that can reliably perform and that's what I worry about with Landry and the Dolphins. The QB stops trusting the other guys and starts locking onto a single guy. Sound familiar? I think we saw that with Jordan Cameron in Cleveland. But with Cameron now in Miami there's a lot more competition for passes and all of a sudden he's no longer an 80-catch guy. We've see a number of supposedly great weapons switch teams only to look remarkably average. It's happened with New England with the best QB in football! The conditions have to be right. We saw that with Mike Wallace in Pittsburgh. The problem is, the conditions in which Landry is currently thriving must change if the Dolphins are to win regardless of whether that's good for Landry's numbers or not. Right now, the play-book, the play-calling and the QB all want to feature Landry on a weekly basis. The problem is, that doesn't buy you much.

 

Yeah, there's still an undercurrent of dispute between us. I think Landry shouldn't be THE focal point of the offense and agree with you regarding the reasons why he shines so much in ours, but he definitely should be ONE of the focal points of any offense that has him in it. It would be criminal not to take advantage of him.

Put Landry on the Patriots where you have Gronk, and I bet the guy is as valuable as Wes Welker was to Brady and Belichick. So I disagree that he "doesn't buy you much".

 

Not sure to be honest. I've seen guys switch teams and thrive (i.e. Wes Welker) and I've seen guys switch teams and not get the same attention they did prior (i.e. Brandon Lloyd).

That's all hypothetical so I don't feel there's a lot of worth in discussing it. The point is, if you're going to feature Landry as a slot receiver in a more proper fashion, who else do you need? Matthews? Stills? Miller? And at what price?

I'm inclined to say that Miami featuring Landry would require another QB than Tannehill, a QB that could work faster and deliver the ball more quickly. Tannehill's strengths are what we saw today in those few instances wherein he stood tall and pushed it deeper downfield. If you're going to stick with Tannehill--which is what I feel the Dolphins will surely do--you have to attempt to build that offense.

Maybe Landry can be your Eric Decker or your Keenan Allen. That's fine. You just need a design and you need to be able to sort out which of the other guys you're going to utilize.

After all, that was the original question.

 

Yeah.. I think Matthews, Parker and Landry is the best 3-WR combo if you had to choose. Thankfully, today's game is showing Parker isn't just hypothetical potential. Need to see more but in that sense today's game was good.

In the grander scheme of things, with maybe Wake not coming back, who knows what happens with Grimes (esp. given other FA's), etc.. there might be enough cap space to keep both Matthews and Miller. Today's game showed again why many are skeptical of OV: he basically disappeared again (or at least wasn't dominant like in the Cowboys game), and I mean "disappeared" not literally but relative to the salary he might command in FA.

 

I think that's probably the most productive combination. No one will fault you for going with that. We just need to know how much it'll cost and whether Stills production may go up next year as a new offense is installed and once he's had the chance to work with Tannehill more. Keep in mind, Matthews has had 4 years to work with Tannehill! That's insane when you consider this is Matthews first real productive year. You want to talk about slow development!

Matthews & Miller are both simply better at their respective positions than Vernon in my book. I just can't decide whether I like Miller or Matthews more for the Dolphins. I think Miller is a damn good RB and would be a real loss but RBs are cheap these days (look no further than Miller!) and with so many teams over-paying I don't want Miami to make that same mistake. Plus, that position is so prone to injury that it makes long-term contracts untrustworthy. Look at Fantasy Football this year, nearly every top RB has gone down with serious injuries (Lynch, Forte, Charles, McCoy, etc.) But what Miller does, he does well. I'll give him that. With Miller and Ajayi you have two complementary RBs which can suffice but I don't see either bringing the physicality the team desperately needs back there so I'm tempted to say it'd be better if Miami simply tried to find a more suitable RB than Miller--an Ivory/Lynch/Peterson type.

I think at this moment I'd focus on re-signing Matthews with the knowledge that Vernon is expendable and that Miller is someone I can lose.

That way I can focus on bringing in a bigger RB in the draft or in FA. I could also head into 2016 knowing that the WR-corp is wrapped up with Parker, Matthews, Stills and Landry all available with Stills and Landry essentially battling it out for the next big WR contract. You can either go Stills heading into 2017 or lose him and focus on re-signing Landry after 2017 is over.

As far as rebuilding the defense, I'd hand it a qualified DC like Fangio and ask him to rebuild it a la Quinn in Atlanta (#1 rush defense). I don't see an OC out there that's going to make Tannehill great so while he's here you might as well make the offense a secondary concern while you rebuild the defense. Get a solid OC who can help Tannehill get on track and produce more consistently and focus the drafts and the coaching on the defensive side of the ball where the cupboard is bare.

 

No thanks on OV. Dude is selfish and underwhelming. If the money is right, sure, but otherwise no thanks.

 

I'm ignoring you here because you want to have a debate about how Landry is awesome and how he's your favorite player.

Landry WAS great today, dude. No one is arguing that. Landry played his best NFL game today.

The fact the team lost in a freakin' blow-out shows you how you need more than just Landry. That's the conversation because guess what DJ? Landry's contract has him dirt cheap until 2018.

However, in the meantime the team has to make decisions about literally EVERYONE ELSE.

How you make those decisions will change the shape of the team by the time 2018 gets here. The real discussion is about what you do with Matthews, Stills, Miller, Cameron, Vernon, etc.

And guess what? Tannehill played badly today which makes me think we may see A LOT of change by 2018.

My impression is that you want to have an argument about Landry being great or not.

No thanks.

 

You don't let Lamar walk. Homegrown talent like OV and a really good RB......if the sorry OLINE is holding Tannehill back, which it does, would'nt those that really know the game believe that it would have to effect the RB's as well? Re-sign all 3 including Matthews.

 

OV is flirting with that dirty player tag.

 

OV making a better case to keep him. Still need to see more games like this from him though. I guess it's realistic to keep all three of Matthews, Miller and OV if Wake and Grimes don't come back, and that might not be a bad option given that the DL is getting good pressure (for run defense we need a good MLB).

 

Wake and Vernon tend to disappear and then have big games. Meh.


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Shelby will be much more affordable and is close talent wise.

 

Who is better against the run in your opinion?

Can't they each play DE on opposite sides? With Wake as a lock to leave or play less, we can't let too much talent go away at the same position.


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I think OV will be asking too much, but it would be great to keep both if possible, just don't want to overpay for decent players.

 

Yeah, for sure. Gonna have to wait and see how the negotiations unfold.

Something tells me if he leaves he'll be a good value free agent like so many we've let go.


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I agree DJ. It's just too bad the two best players on the field today, Miller and OV will probably be playing on another team next year.
With it appearing that the Dolphns are entering their fifth or sixth rebuilding program over the last 15 yeas, I have no doubt that both of these players will want to go to a team which will be a legitimate playoff contender next year.
I would love to see them resign Miller, OV, and Matthews, but I will not be the least bit surprised if they all aren't on another NFL team next year.

 

I think we'll see the team make a hard push for Miller who is probably the greatest value. Matthews is a good player but with Parker and Landry you can absorb the blow of losing him. You can flirt with every girl at the bar but you can't take 'em all home!

With OV, it's consistency. cbrad hit the nail on the head. If he can stand out as the leading DE on this team and look uniquely special like he did today, he'll earn the team's favor. Fact is, he's been woefully under-performing for awhile though. You can't forget that all because of one productive game.

 

Yeah, I don't know what's with that. He's had dumb personal fouls and a small handful of questionable hits this season.

That's not really the kind of BS I want to root for. The physical stuff I'm fine with but risking another players ability to play is not something I want to see out of any Dolphin player. My best guess is that it's part of how Suh prepares and plays. I suspect Vernon is trying to adopt a bit of that "past the whistle" aggression.

 

Assuming that they resign all 3 of them, who would be starting in your opinion next season at receiver?

 

We need to resign OV, you can't develop talent like that at a premium position then just let them walk with nothing in return. With Phillips and Suh on the line OV can be a force rushing the passer. If we let him go then it opens an obvious need that we have to address in the draft or free agency. IF someone offers him some crazy contract then oh well but we really should be talking extension with him asap.

 

I'm with you. We have let far too many players that we drafted or developed go elsewhere and sustain great careers while struggling replacing those individuals.

I've been warming up to Vernon but it's pretty clear he's making an impact on this team. At 2.5 sacks, he may have been the difference today.