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What has Suh done?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Finster, Dec 9, 2015.

  1. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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  2. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    No Finster, where we disagreed with you so vehemently is when you kept insisting Suh wasn't one of the elite DT's (as in top 3 at worst) over his time in Detroit. Not sure who else that watches the NFL agrees with your viewpoint there.

    That article is talking just about Suh's play THIS year (Mando repeatedly makes reference to just his play with the Dolphins), and I don't think many here would argue he's clearly played as a top 3 DT so far this year. He's played very well, but not clearly elite this year, and while he might be overpaid is certainly a piece to build this defense around for the future (Jones is the only other one right now it seems).
     
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  3. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    go on the record and sum up your stance on the player?
     
  4. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    My stance, even if he was the #1 DT is that worth his contract?

    And is he the #1 DT?

    If we didn't sign him, would we be worse off?
     
  5. bran

    bran Senior Member

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    without suh this defense would be in much deeper **** than it already is. one of the sacks vernon got last week was due to suh taking on two blockers and pushing one of them right into the qb's face as he was being held by the other. phillips will definitely learn a thing or two from suh as well.
     
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  6. Ohio Fanatic

    Ohio Fanatic Twuaddle or bust Club Member

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  7. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Here's the problem when you make ANY PLAYER the highest paid in the league for that position type- it's impossible to recover the value. We saw it with Revis and so many other players in recent years, yet it never truly works out because it cripples your roster.

    Is Suh a great DT? Definitely. But would we have been better off using that cap money for an above average cornerback, a middle linebacker, and three offensive linemen? Because that's essentially what we paid for Suh....it kept us from signing 4-5 good to very good players. That's why I was 100% against the signing then and now...there's just no way he can "earn his paycheck" when we have other holes that need to be filled. The only position I can see giving that kind of money for is the quarterback, and that's only after they bring your city a SB ring or back to back conference championships.

    Then again, it's not Suh's fault that the Dolphins overpaid and he's doing everything he can to motivate the team to play at higher levels. So I almost feel bad for him....but not really since he makes my annual income per series. He's destined to fail in any case, however, because it was a dumb move to begin with. We simply can't afford him and that's painfully obvious with the way the year has turned out.
     
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  8. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

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    You lost me at "Mando"


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  9. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    That's my line of thinking. No one can deny that he is very good. Is he worth the contract? Will he be willing to restructure? The problem with a team like Miami who throws too much money around in FA is we have too many holes to tie that much money into one player.

    Outside of a franchise QB and some high impact players, it's hard to justify that money. As Miami has proved again, we are not one player away. Then you have to factor the impact it has on chemistry and team perception when/if we let some good players like Miller, Matthews or Vernon walk who have paid their dues but then throw money around at mercenaries.
     
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  10. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    anyone saying anything negative about Dolphins = bad. Anyone objective = evil.
     
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  11. SuhMe

    SuhMe Banned

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    Precisely. And I'd add he's been elite since Campbell got the gig imo at least.
     
  12. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    Well, a couple of things Brad, first off, he doesn't mention that Suh is not playing to his old standard, which brings me right to my 2nd point, because perhaps Mando, like me and most other posters on this board, never watched Suh on a game by game basis, so he's seeing Suh for what he is, now that he gets to watch him every game.

    For me it was this offseason, I went back and looked at a lot of Detroit games, and it seems to me to be a bit more than coincidence that his evaluation is nearly identical to mine, I got a ton of flak for saying that Suh wasn't a top 3 imo, he was more like top 7, and that he isn't a guy that takes games over, and he used the same examples like JT and Watt, and now in week 13 he is mirroring what I said prior to the start of the season, so like I said, that seems like a bit more than coincidence, especially when Mando is getting down on a player, because he has close ties to the Fins and writes most of his articles accordingly.

    I also agree with JD, about no DT in the league is worth that, but I'll go a step further, there has never been a DT born that is worth that money, and Suh doesn't resemble those guys, he's not even the best playing today imo, never mind the all time greats.
     
  13. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    Is that for me DJ, or for Brad?
     
  14. xphinfanx

    xphinfanx Stay strong my friends.

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    He has made a pocket full of money.
     
  15. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Top-5 DT, but not worth his compensation IMO.
     
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  16. SuhMe

    SuhMe Banned

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    You've also said he's not very stout in the run game, don't think a lot of people would agree with that nor would the tape. We paid him to single up Wake, it was working for a couple of weeks there too, I'll take Mike Tannenbaum's opinion (who I don't even like anyway) or Dennis Hickey's on what's best for this team over yours, when it comes to career defining decisions like signing Suh. Because you know, they actually get paid to know wtf they're talking about unlike you.
     
  17. SuhMe

    SuhMe Banned

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    That's how Free Agency works. Let me know when Aaron Donald or J.J Watt hit the market, because you know, franchise cornerstone players hit Free Agency all the time and what not. Ask Chip Kelly how that 103 million he allocated to Maxwell and Murray are working out.
     
  18. Rock Sexton

    Rock Sexton Anti-Homer

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    Yup. Not even close. It was for the sole purpose of selling tickets ..... ironically I'm sure those have now become poor.
     
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  19. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    that is hilarious, didn't Tannenbaum destroy an NFL franchise?
     
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  20. SuhMe

    SuhMe Banned

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    I'm sure that's exactly what Tannenbaum thought when purchasing Suh. How can I make my billionaire owner a few extra million, I know, I'll overpay for a big name, that's sure going to benefit my interests in the long run. Doesn't make logical sense, it was a football decision, whether you agree with it or not. Ross hasn't demonstrated enough care in this business venture to make a decision like that, he leaves the personnel decisions to his minions, I'll give him credit for that much at least.
     
  21. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    Unfortuntely the front office thought signing Suh would make up for the below average LB's and secondary.

    Instead of signing or drafting upgrades at the real positions of need on the defense, Tannebaum went for the big signing and ignored the real issues with the defense.

    I really don't care how great a player Suh is. The fact is no one player on defense can make up for all the inept players surrounding him.

    I still think on a decent defense, Suh would be one of the best players in the NFL. On the Dolphins defense, he is merely average because opposing offenses can constantly double and triple team him and the LB's are so bad they still can't make plays on a consistent basis.

    I don't blame Suh one bit. The real problem with this team is Ross and Tannebaum and as long as they remain with the organization, I see no real improvement going forward.
     
  22. SuhMe

    SuhMe Banned

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    Still has more football IQ in his left nut than you. He also helped build a Jets team that went to back to back AFC Championship games. Have you ever done something like that?
     
  23. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    for you, I just wanna know exactly what you mean before I partake in the discussion, obviously you think the cap hit outweighs talent, and you dont feel good about that way of building a champ team?, what else would you add?
     
  24. Rock Sexton

    Rock Sexton Anti-Homer

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    It's tickets first man. It's a business. Whether he was a legitimate fit was a secondary matter.
     
  25. SuhMe

    SuhMe Banned

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    Logically speaking, why on earth would Tannenbaum be concerned with that? That affects him in no way, he doesn't own the team. We're not the Redskins.
     
  26. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    Who says Tannenbaum made the decision, it sure seemed like more of a Ross decision to me, especially when Ross came out and said he wouldn't mind if Suh was his son, after only meeting with the guy for a few hours, sure seemed like a full on sell job to me.
     
  27. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    Well, it's pretty simple, and I have been pretty vocal about it all year, Suh is overrated and vastly over paid, imo you sign players to 20 mil per contracts because they can win games for your team, iow, QBs, and only good ones at that, as everyone can see how it's worked out so far, we could have the 30th ranked run D with any combination of DTs for a fraction of the price.
     
  28. Rock Sexton

    Rock Sexton Anti-Homer

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    He answers to a man named Ross.
     
  29. Ohio Fanatic

    Ohio Fanatic Twuaddle or bust Club Member

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    that's incredibly short sighted. First of all, Suh is playing well, arguably top 5 or 6 at his position like the article states. Suh is not making the impact you want him to make, but that's because we have the worst (IMO) LB corps in the league and maybe the worst we've had in the 30 years as a dolphins fan. A DT is no different than a QB, it takes a supporting cast to make the defense great. We don't have that. The opposing offense knows the defense likely won't pick up the slack if they just double team Suh.

    back to the short sighted comment. Yes, this year, it's hard to argue the value of Suh's contract. But he's not just playing for us this year. If you are Tannebaum, you believe that you can build a defense around this guy. We need to get rid of both Misi and Shephard and get two new LBs.
     
  30. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    You all laughed at me when I wasn't thrilled on the eve of the signing. I was called a cry baby and worse. Here we are in December, and the proof is here. Backing up a dump truck full of money for a DT is not a winning formula in this league. Even if Suh was as dominant as he was in Detroit, it would be, and is, a terrible signing. Miami Dolphins are a lagging franchise in finding winning trends. This signing was just more proof.
     
  31. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    I think you're reading Mando wrong. Read the section where he talks about whether Suh is a "defining" player. The reasons Mando is saying Suh is not a defining player are primarily stat-based: our run defense is 30th, Suh has only one sack against AFC East opponents, and of course total number of points given up. So Mando is pretty clearly saying Suh hasn't had the impact we thought he'd have, and that he's not a "defining" player for us because he didn't improve our defense in measurable ways. I totally agree with Mando on this btw.. but yes he's implying Suh WAS a defining player for Detroit because Detroit's defense and Suh had the stats.

    Anyway, my stance on Suh was essentially the same in the offseason: his contract is worth it IF we end up having a top 5 run defense and are top 5 in points allowed. So far, Suh's impact isn't what most of us thought it to be, so Mando's really just saying the obvious here and is saying it a bit late (this was clear after ~6 games were played IMO).
     
  32. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    So you agree he is not playing up to his contract?
     
  33. SuhMe

    SuhMe Banned

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    He gets paid more than J.J because he hit the market. Is he outplaying J.J, no, so in a perfect world where everyone hits FA he isn't playing up to his contract compared to the rest of the league. But let me know when J.J hits the market, until then I'm glad Suh's on the team.
     
  34. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    What does JJ Watt have to do with it? Is there some type of requirement for having someone paid as one of the most expensive players at their position? Seems like a false choice.
     
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  35. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Lol I love this ^^^

    You essentially argued against yourself and defeated yourself all in one fell swoop.
     
  36. SuhMe

    SuhMe Banned

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    Naw I just pointed out how rare it is for elite players to hit free agency. You're just not smart enough to keep up or understand lol. Remind me again how great you believe Matt Ryan is.
     
  37. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    But the argument is, you shouldn't pay for elite players in FA. That's the point. And by pointing out Murray, you proved our point. We shoulnd't have signed Suh. But you did so without realizing it.

    You think we were better off with Henne over Matt Ryan? Oh lawd have mercy. Matt Ryan in Miami is at least 8 years of good QB play instead of what we've had. He's having a bad 3-4 game stretch and all of a sudden you think we were better off with Henne.
     
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  38. SuhMe

    SuhMe Banned

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    No, I just believe Matt Ryan is over rated, I've said it all along. I don't think he's top 10 like you've said in the past. And my point about free agency is, over paying is the nature of the whole thing, doesn't stop teams with knowledgeable, professional GM's from trying. And trust me, the dumbest NFL GM knows more than you, me, or anyone else on this site by a mile.
     
  39. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    You painted someone into a corner :)
     
  40. SuhMe

    SuhMe Banned

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    Players like Watt don't hit the market. We're lucky enough to have a talent like Suh, most of us just don't seem to appreciate his talent. Of course we could have allocated that money better in FA by signing a bunch of guys, but it's not that simple. You have to get guys who WANT to play for your team, and even still guys like Maxwell and Murray wanted to be Eagles but aren't worth their price tag and they aren't elite talent. Signing Maclin for example, seems to be a case of a GM making a wise decision in Free Agency, as well as guys like Connor Barwin, Malcom Jenkins, and Walter Thurmond. You win some you lose some.
     

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