1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

What do we need? (ROSTER ANALYSIS)

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Bpk, Dec 7, 2015.

  1. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

    2,547
    600
    113
    Dec 14, 2014
    Okay, I'm glad it's established. Now we can focus on the OCs.

    What was so bad about Sherman? He was working with an overall weak WR group and Tannehill was extremely raw.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  2. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    He called poor plays that were poorly designed for our specific offensive talent. He was too dead set on things that weren't important to winning then and instead tried to go for what he thought was the long term view.

    But before we get away from the oline, I made this point to you before and you ignored it......what are the avenues available to a QB that help overcome a poor oline?
     
  3. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

    11,375
    11,392
    113
    Sep 28, 2015
    Oh, so in your OPINION Sherman was a bad OC??

    Tom Brady has a bad OL, no running game, a bad OC a bad everything. Same with Rivers.

    Also R Wilson has a bad OL, hes been better without Lynch, he has a bad OC.

    There's three off the top my head. Does it matter that I could be 100% off on my evaluation of those teams offensive Cordinator's?? Guess not


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  4. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

    2,547
    600
    113
    Dec 14, 2014
    We had no offensive talent, that's the point lol.

    Learn how to audible, complement the running game, scramble, develop better pocket presence, get rid of the ball quickly, stuff like that.

    It's not easy but a lot of other QBs manage.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  5. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    Again, I'm not playing this game with you.

    I addressed your stance in a previous post that you jumped over to argue with me about a post I was talking to someone else in.

    Address the last post I made to you.
     
  6. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    He didn't want Ryan to scramble. He didn't let the running game be anything to complement. His plays were designed so that Ryan couldn't get rid of the ball quickly. He didn't let Ryan audible by what we consider calling audibles. Also, Ryan had the same lack of talent around him to deal with until this year.
     
  7. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

    11,375
    11,392
    113
    Sep 28, 2015
    When you ask stupid questions be prepared for stupid answers.

    I can't speak intelligently on the offense of Cordinator situation for 31 NFL teams, I could pretend? I could make blanket statements then pawn it off as a fact??

    The truth is there is a poster on this message board that thinks the question you're asking is answerable with facts.

    but carry-on this is comical


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  8. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    Again, address the post (#319) made to you.
     
  9. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    39,159
    21,798
    113
    Nov 29, 2007
    San Diego
    Guy who led the Packers to 3 consecutive NFC North titles, 4 consecutive playoffs, a 57-39 record, is just a high school coach. Damn I've heard it all now.
     
    Fin-O likes this.
  10. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    39,159
    21,798
    113
    Nov 29, 2007
    San Diego
    I haven't formed a conclusion about Tanny's audible prowesss

    It's the first data point in what will be 5 games to end the year.

    Just pointing out he's off to a great start.
     
  11. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    39,159
    21,798
    113
    Nov 29, 2007
    San Diego
    Lol man I don't know how you invent this stuff.

    My remarks were about that one game.

    He was allowed to audible we hear. Reins of Lazor taken off. I'm declaring the results for that one game were excellent.

    Do you dispute any of this. Is any of it disputable.
     
  12. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

    11,375
    11,392
    113
    Sep 28, 2015
    Would you expect any less??


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  13. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    He is, in fact, a high school coach right now. Are you saying he wasn't a poor OC?

    Your flippant response sure seemed like a conclusion. If it wasn't a conclusion, then I apologize for assuming it was. A few others certainly have however.

    Honestly, I haven't heard if he was allowed to audible or not. I know it was reported that he was going to "more involved" in the game plan. That's not really all that specific.
     
  14. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

    2,547
    600
    113
    Dec 14, 2014
    Scrambling requires instincts. Are you referring to run plays? Because it feels like he ran more back then than under Lazor.

    And we can argue all day about whether or not Tannehill should be allowed to audible. I don't think he should. Let's agree to disagree on that.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  15. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    111,652
    67,546
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    every qb has a timer, if the play is not there, instinct should take over..no matter what coaches say, they will not interfere with that instinct if the outcome is a positive.
     
    Piston Honda and Fin-O like this.
  16. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    39,159
    21,798
    113
    Nov 29, 2007
    San Diego
    It's possible he's a great OC hampered by a deficient QB. We'll see.

    He is a high school coach. He isn't "Just" a high school coach. He was successful in the NFL even if he had Brett Favre.

    Hey the new and improved Fin D. It was flippant but it was solely about that one game. I'd never form a conclusion about one game bad or good. I look at long term trends.
    You will never, ever see me form a conclusion over one game. Too much volatility game to game.

    Someone said he was for a few plays I think coach.
     
  17. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    Why shouldn't he? What specifically do you know of Tannehill that qualifies you to make that call?

    Also, I'm not even arguing that he should audible either. I'm merely pointing out, yet again (that you're ignoring yet again) that many of the tools other QBs have at their disposal to deal with a bad oline, Tannehill doesn't have access to, like being able to audible.

    What exactly do you, finsfandan, believe a QB can do to mitigate a poor offensive line?
     
  18. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    That's an entirely different sentiment then the post I responded to. Which was this:

    Surely, you can see how those are different...no?

    That's not new or improved. I've always apologized when I was wrong. The only thing different is that against my better judgement, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt.

    Case in point. At most we have a nebulous maybe sorta kinda audibled, I guess I heard it but not sure where......yet not only are you counting it as a data point, you also tried to challenge me over it being true.
     
  19. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

    2,547
    600
    113
    Dec 14, 2014
    Why shouldn't he what? He should scramble, but it requires instincts. He should roll out and run, he did that more under Sherman than Lazor from what I recall.

    Yes, but maybe he shouldn't be allowed to audible because he's bad at it. He had years to prove he should in practice and he didn't with one guy that knew him since college and another guy that was unbiased and just met him.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  20. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    Obviously I was talking about audibles, since you said he shouldn't be allowed to audible.

    As for your stance on audibles, what evidence do you have for that? How do you know he was even allowed to audible in practice?
     
  21. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

    2,547
    600
    113
    Dec 14, 2014
    You don't think he had several chances over his career to prove to two OCs that he can consistently make the right audible?

    Why wouldn't they let him audible if he proved he was good at it?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  22. SuhMe

    SuhMe Banned

    365
    137
    0
    Mar 13, 2015
    Why don't you come up with a real, plausible solution to improving the QB position, rather than just b**** about the one we have?
     
  23. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    I don't know.

    I don't know if he's good at it or not. I'm not sure how one gets better at something without doing that thing though.

    Regardless, you're still ignoring this:

     
  24. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

    2,547
    600
    113
    Dec 14, 2014
    Are you going to address what I said?

    I've already suggested ideas but clearly you just want to complain about me.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  25. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

    2,547
    600
    113
    Dec 14, 2014
    He's had many chances in practice. He didn't prove himself.

    I've already responded. Check again.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  26. SuhMe

    SuhMe Banned

    365
    137
    0
    Mar 13, 2015
    I haven't read. What do you suggest?
     
  27. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

    11,375
    11,392
    113
    Sep 28, 2015
    Do you, in your opinion...

    Think we have a franchise QB in Ryan?
    Why do you think he has personally regressed in 2015?
     
  28. SuhMe

    SuhMe Banned

    365
    137
    0
    Mar 13, 2015
    This could have something to do with it.

    https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/passing-play-pct

    Not trying to pick another Russel Wilson fight, but I remember in one of the 2 years he went to the SB Seattle had the highest run to pass ratio in the league. Cam has that this year, coincidence? I think not. Oh wow just noticed Seattle is 31 on this list, shocker lol.
     
  29. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

    2,547
    600
    113
    Dec 14, 2014
    Okay, so don't claim I'm just *****ing.

    Before we ever drafted Tannehill I believed we needed to rebuild for a while with Moore, then draft a QB. I still believe that now. Instead we've possibly wasted a #8 overall pick and time.

    If we don't do that, which we should, I'd take a flyer on McCarron. He's always been a natural QB, played under center in a pro style offense, good decision making, extends plays, good stats and had success in big games.

    He's also had time to develop under Hue Jackson, plus it wouldn't cost us much; probably a third rounder.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  30. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

    2,547
    600
    113
    Dec 14, 2014
    I absolutely love running the ball, probably as much as anybody. Buuuuut notice Wilson and Cam allow them to do that.

    And yes, Wilson is a stud. Thanks for more evidence [emoji41]


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  31. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    You don't know that. You're assuming that.

    Was this your response to my question?:

     
  32. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

    2,547
    600
    113
    Dec 14, 2014
    Why wouldn't he be able to showcase his abilities, including his ability or inability to audible?

    No, that wasn't it. Let me find it.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  33. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

    2,547
    600
    113
    Dec 14, 2014
    Here it is.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  34. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    I think its more likely that he is than he isn't. He could fail still. He could develop further too.

    I think he regressed because as I've said numerous times, he can't audible, has a lousy oline, had a lousy OC and they abandoned the run too much.

    I think those problems existed last year, but this year there's more film on those issues so other teams adapt better. Those issues being what they are, we haven't been able to counter to those adaptations.

    How can we counter to a defense adapting to our weaknesses if we don't adjust? How does an offense adjust? A good OC will adapt and the QB can audible.

    None of this is outlandish.
     
  35. SuhMe

    SuhMe Banned

    365
    137
    0
    Mar 13, 2015
    I don't think most people would consider McCarron or Moore an upgrade over Tanny, but hey, different strokes for different folks. U must be a Bama fan lol.
     
  36. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,329
    9,874
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    So, frankly, Tannehill has historically, gotten rid of the ball quicker than most QBs in the league. I agree he needs to scramble more. I find the pocket presence one hard to quantify, due to how many times I've seen multiple defenders come through from multiple angles, and how many times I've seen Tannehill try to climb the pocket due to pressure from the outside, to get hit from the middle rush, or try to escape out the side due to middle pressure, only to get hit from pressure from the side.

    So, it's not that I disagree with your stuff, but I do believe that the oline has really screwed him when he tried to work in the pocket.
     
  37. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

    2,547
    600
    113
    Dec 14, 2014
    I'm not saying he's an upgrade right now. I'm saying he could be over the course of 4 seasons, like Tannehill has had, especially since he's had time to develop and a good OC to learn under.

    I don't believe Moore is an upgrade either. I do appreciate his aggressive mentality though. He's serviceable enough to keep us mediocre and allows us to invest what we're paying Tannehill into several other positions like offensive guard, LBs, whatever. Then once you're done rebuilding, you take a shot with a young QB.

    I'm not a Bama fan, I enjoy watching them, but I don't care for college football nearly as much as I do the NFL.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  38. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    Ok so these are the things that other QBs use to cope with a bad oline in your opinion?

    - Learn how to audible
    - complement the running game
    - scramble
    - develop better pocket presence
    - get rid of the ball quickly

    Ok, let's look at these then.

    Learn how to audible:
    You don't know if he has or hasn't. You don't how good he is or isn't at it. You're assuming that the only reason he isn't allowed to audible is because he's bad at it. That's an incorrect assumption. It could very well be that Lazor was a bit of a control freak for all you know. Some coaches don't like their QBs to audible.

    complement the running game:
    This one doesn't make sense on a number of different levels. Not the least of which is that we're significantly more pass based than run based. That is playcalling problem which as we've seen Tannehill can't change since he can't audible.

    scramble:
    Yes, he could scramble more.

    develop better pocket presence:
    His pocket presence isn't bad. Its average. The line is that bad. Most of the pressure Tannehill faces is either a jailbreak or up the center, which flummoxes most QBs, even Brady.

    get rid of the ball quickly:
    He already does. Virtually every year he's at the top of the list of QBs with the least amount of time to throw. Its the main reason Lazor moved the offense to short passes.
     
  39. SuhMe

    SuhMe Banned

    365
    137
    0
    Mar 13, 2015
    Interesting, so what's your plan exactly? Trade a 3rd for McCarron and sign Hugh Jackson to be the coach? Where does that leave Moore and Tannehill? I realize you didn't like the Tannehill pick at the time, but it happened. What do you propose we do after this season? I vote stay the course with Tannehill, but tbh I have the personality of being loyal to a fault. Still believe in the young man though, I really do. He's not elite, but I find him good enough to win with the right pieces around him in theory, starting with a competent H.C and O.C.
     
  40. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

    2,547
    600
    113
    Dec 14, 2014
    I would quote your post but it's gonna take up too much space.

    To alleviate the pressure of a bad OL, any QB can do the following.

    Audible: this one is controversial. I've already stated numerous times why I don't believe he cannot do so successfully. Let's agree to disagree.

    Complement the running game: you'll probably never hear me argue that we should run the ball less. We should also have him roll out and run more (beating a dead horse, I know). We should call more play actions, especially since Parker is a stud (I saw his catch was ranked #2 by NFL Now this past week). This mostly isn't Tannehill's fault, but the following is and would complement the running game.

    Scramble: I believe there's a consensus on this.

    Pocket presence: this is one we can and should debate. I'm not sure where other QBs rank, so I don't want to say for sure if he's average or bad, but he could be a heck of a lot better stepping around in there. Brady is obviously the best at it. I don't expect him to ever get there, but it'd be nice if he was half as good.

    Diagnose the blitz: I forgot this one until now. It's hard to tell who this is on in a case by case scenario, but Griese believes he's terrible at it.

    Get rid of the balm quickly: I'm not saying he doesn't do this. He does. I'm just saying it's an option for any QB.

    All in all, it's a mixed bag. He can and should do better.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     

Share This Page