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what is really wrong with RT17?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by dullfandan, Dec 10, 2015.

  1. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    Tanne is simply not able to process/see enough on field info to be a franchise QB, so he's thinking way too much, and if you're thinking, then you're not playing, as the old saying goes, and this is not something that is coachable.

    There's only a handful of franchise QBs in the league at any given time ladies and gents, and Tanne ain't one of them.

    I would be more than willing to go with Tanne for a couple years until we find a FQB, but not while paying him franchise money, because that just restricts your ability to build a good team.
     
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  2. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    with how much film defensive coordinators watch on qbs does anyone thing any defensive coordinator has had to implement a spy aspect to their gameplan..nope..right there you have already lost your battle..your allowing all players in coverage to keep all eyes on their matchups..Def coordinators have told their players just focus on your assignment...thats bad news.
     
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  3. Serpico Jones

    Serpico Jones Well-Known Member

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    No it's not.
     
  4. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    If that were the case, then no team would audible.
     
  5. Rock Sexton

    Rock Sexton Anti-Homer

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    Trained to stay in the pocket and not turn the ball over ........ yeah THAT's why he's struggling. :pointlol:

    I laugh every time I see it being suggested. I can't wait to hear what others will come up with next.
     
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  6. Rock Sexton

    Rock Sexton Anti-Homer

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    But, but, but he has "potential" ...... lol

    I mean look, it happened with Chad Henne right? :lol:
     
  7. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

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    This is fair. He's been, let's be honest, really bad on 3rd downs.

    I do wonder how much of this is predictability of the offense and play design (consistent plays called short of the sticks) but either way, not good.

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  8. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    I agree. I too don't know why, it may be just as you wonder.

    But if Tannehill played in 3rd and 4-9 like he did last year, we'd be a much better team right now. Results from most of his other down and distances are better than last year or at least close.
     
  9. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

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    Another issue is that defenses aren't being forced to honor the run game.
     
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  10. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I honestly believe that it's true...although not for the reason you may think. Because when you have a guy that can't process the field fast enough in the first place, the last thing you want to do is give him more to think about after the snap. And if you look at his college film, he was a scrambling quarterback. Why on Earth would any dumb-*** coach draft him in the 1st round and immediately try to change him (while giving him the immediate start)? He got entirely screwed on that deal.

    If Tannehill is one thing though, it's loyal to a fault. He does EVERYTHING he's coached to do..or at least he tries his best to do it before getting slaughtered. And I think the key to his success is to get all that noise out of his head and just let the kid play football. If he throws three picks, then fine, but at least he's looking downfield and challenging defenses. Because the alternative is what we have now...a 3 yard pocket passer who looks like he's completely out of his element.

    Anyway, I believe that coaching has been as much of a problem as anything for Tannehill. And it's not an "excuse" because I was never much of a fan in the first place...it's just an observation.
     
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  11. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    The other area Tannehill has significantly regressed this year has been in the red zone...

    2014:
    19-Goal: 56-89 (62.9%), 364 yards (4.09 YPA), 24 TD 2 int = 101.8 QB rating (5 rush, 13 yards, 1 TD)
    10-Goal: 27-48 (56.3%), 118 yards (2.46 YPA), 16 TD 1 int = 92.4 QB rating (2 rush, 1 yard)

    2015:
    19-Goal: 28-55 (50.9%), 184 yards (3.35 YPA), 13 TD 2 int = 82.9 QB rating (1 rush, 5 yards)
    10-Goal: 16-34 (471.%), 79 yards (2.32 YPA), 10 TD 1 int = 81.1 QB rating

    I recall early this season Tannehill attempted somewhere in the neighborhood of 4-5 fade passes in the end zone that were abysmal. I've seen high school QBs throw those better.

    It appears to me that when defenses press Tannehill is exposed as tight coverage prevents the underneath routes from being wide open and he doesn't have the touch to go over the top. We see the same thing, not just on goal line situations but when it is 3rd and short.

    Can blame that on the OC, HC, OL, whatever but that is a QB issue. Winning QBs are able to make those passes at the NFL level.
     
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  12. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    Of course, a good passing game stretches the defense and allows for more success in the run game. Miami is 4th in the NFL in Yards Per Rush so it has to be respected. Perhaps our OL is not as bad as everyone thinks? Good QBs can significantly help out an OL and make them better than when blocking for a below-average QB. Just take a look at the Patriots. Now that is an OL in shambles and Brady, a slow footed 38 year old, makes them look a whole lot better than they are.

    The crazy thing is, with all the complaining about the imbalance of pass-to-run ratio Miami is 22nd in Passing Yards Per Game and 23 in Rushing Yards Per Game...I would think based on imbalance Miami should be a top 10 passing team and bottom 5 rushing team.
     
  13. Rock Sexton

    Rock Sexton Anti-Homer

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    He can shine between the 20's and during less "pivotal" moments of games. But ya, cumulatively over his career so far the redzone has been an issue and important downs during crunchtime. That's why I never fall in love with some of the "moments" he does have.

    The better defenses in this league sit on those shorter routes and they know he doesn't have the touch/anticipation to beat them with a finesse pass. Everything is lasers to the short-intermediate sideline.
     
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  14. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    It's because Wallace is still stealing red zone opportunities even though he's drinking it up in Minn
     
  15. muskrat21

    muskrat21 Well-Known Member

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    lazor held tannehill back. thill thrived under sherman, the problem with sherman is the same problem with lazor, he called a **** game. need inches on 3rd down with sherman? lol run a toss sweep for a 5 yard loss....
     
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  16. FinSane

    FinSane Cynical Dolphins Fan

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    David Carr 2.0

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  17. DW2

    DW2 Member

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    There's not a thing wrong with Tannehill. He's just not a very good QB. That's it.
     
  18. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

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    Good post.

    I think that this is a case where stats can be misleading. Does anyone think Miami is 4th best at running the ball? I dont.

    Running isn't as paramount when you have a QB like Brady, he's more than capable of taking more on his shoulders. Tannehill is different. I don't see him as a QB who can consistently carry the offense. For three years he's been dropping back 40 or so times a game when his skill set is more geared towards 30 attempts, with a heavy dose of play action and moving pockets.
     
  19. BigNastyDB13

    BigNastyDB13 Well-Known Member

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    Blaming Lazor is lame and lazy. Thill has been the same qb he's always been and if anything Lazor's system made Thill look better than he is. Thill had his best statistical season under Lazor. Blame the guy who has been with Thill for half his career. Lazor isn't wasn't forcing thill to throw 5 yards short of the sticks every 3rd down. Lazor wasn't forcing thill to miss open receivers, Lazor wasn't forcing thill to hold the ball forever only to under throw Wallace. I guess there will always be a coach or coordinator to blame.
     
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  20. BigNastyDB13

    BigNastyDB13 Well-Known Member

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    You're almost always going to have an outlet short of the sticks. The problem is mia could have 4 guys out on a route and 3 of them can be past the sticks and thill will lock onto the 1 guy short. He seems perfectly happy with a 3 yard completion on 3rd n 8.
     
  21. Kud_II

    Kud_II Realist Division

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    For all we know... Tannehill was holding Lazor back. And he was only calling his offense based on Tannehill's capabilities. Tannehill has not improved since Lazor was let go. I could sit here and explain all the reasons why he won't be elite (ad-nauseum) but it's been gone over enough. Trade him for whatever you can. The most important thing is dumping the contract and hopefully getting a decent pick out of it. To me, that's the best thing the Dolphins can do for themselves.

    However... Stephen Loss may be in love with Tannehill like he was with Philbin and want to give him one more year (like some of the fans on here also don't want to trade him)
     
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  22. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    I don't really think Lazor was explicitly holding Tannehill back, but it's only been a ****ing week. :lol:

    And the contract is pretty easy to walk away from after 2016 I'm pretty sure.
     
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  23. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The next question is, how do you get better production at QB.

    Tannehill has his flaws but consider that only about 20% of QBs drafted ever play and that virtually all sustained success has come out of picks in the top-50. Russell Wilson was taken at the very top of round 3 but excluding him, the only notable QBs taken after rounds 1 and 2 over the last 12 years are Schaub and Fitzpatrick. It took those guys 5 and 9 seasons respectively to become proficient players. I think even Tannehill would be pretty good if he had 9 seasons of experience, lol! That means that if a team doesn't invest a high pick that the hit rate is less than 5%. Even 1st rounders its no better than 50/50. And the misses can wind up devastating franchises. I have a hard time believing people really look at the draft with a realistic perspective. Drafting QBs is a really risky venture and it's hard to believe a team with a guy who's averaged about a 90 passer rating over the last 2 years and who's had back to back 4000-yd seasons would really want to go through that again.

    So, in my estimation if Miami wants to have any hope of improving upon what Tannehill gives they have to gamble high in the draft and get very lucky. You cannot draft a QB late and develop him as you could 30 years ago. There are so few snaps available it's debatable whether or not you can even develop one passer effectively. That could be part of why luck plays so much of a role in QB development these days.

    I'll say this, if you want better than Tannehill you're going to invest in a 1st rounder. You just have to do that. Me personally, I'm so sick of turnover I'd be curious to see what would happen if you took a guy like Tannehill and gave him 6-7 years to develop. I mean, he put up a 93 passer rating last year and has only dropped slightly this year. He has his flaws as others have pointed out (3rd down, red zone, etc.) but do you really want to gamble all that away (knowing your hit rate is below 50%) just because you're not as overwhelmed as you were a couple years ago? Would it not be better to see the team add a great CB, FS, DE or OG?

    I don't know, but I think it'd be really cool if the Dolphins stuck with someone for awhile. After all, we've seen a lot of QBs improve over time. It took Flacco Eli, and Dalton each roughly 5 years to really find their stride and they were all more NFL ready than Tannehill was. Plus, guys like Stafford who blow up early often fizzle out. We see that a lot with the scramblers: RGIII, Kaepernick, etc.

    I look at Tannehill and I see high intelligence, great toughness and a very physically gifted guy. Okay, so maybe the drawback is he's not ready right now. I think the Dolphins might be better off 3-4 years down the road if they just stick with Tannehill and let him grow. Afterall, ignoring the growth that goes on between years 4-9 is pretty short-sighted. I'm not exactly sure why so many people do that. As long as QBs look serviceable early, they generally earn the right to keep going and they prove themselves by developing into great guys. Look at all the elites, nearly every one has a decade or more of experience. I for one am sick of young, immature QBs. Aren't you guys? How great would it be if the DOlphins actually developed a player for like a decade? That doesn't happen though. It's part of what's wrong with the team.

    I think the toughest thing is just to commit to something that you know isn't perfect. We struggle all the time with that as people whether it's in regards to our jobs, our relationships or whatever.

    I'd like to see Miami just commit for awhile to one guy at QB. I know I'm personally sick of constantly debating it. No, Tannehill's not a dominant player right now but of the 148 QBs drafted in the last 12 years, his career passer rating (85) ranks him above the average (81). In fact, his passer rating is actually good enough for 17th which is pretty decent for such a raw prospect. That also ranks him 11th out of the roughly 30-35 1st rounders so yeah, he's definitely a pretty good find, even if not an elite player right now.

    I mean, what you've got right now is pretty good for what it is. He's raw. Develop him. That's your challenge Miami.
     
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  24. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Whatever the merits of holding onto Tannehill to see if he develops into a very good QB vs. gambling on a 1st round pick (which is atm my preference), I think the more important issue is who we hire as HC. And whoever that is better NOT be a HC that agreed to keep Tannehill because otherwise he wouldn't get the job. The future HC should be the one who really decides whether he wants to hitch his career on a Tannehill-led team or not.
     
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  25. dullfandan

    dullfandan Active Member

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    i hate that a discussion turns hostile when we talk about a guy we should be rooting for
     
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  26. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

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    I disagree with this but ok


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  27. Dolphin Dundee

    Dolphin Dundee Well-Known Member

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    The sad part is Tannehill did nothing but just be himself.Ross put way to much pressure on him by paying him like an elite QB .Now fans expect elite QB play and that's just not him right now and they are understandably frustrated .I mean i would take the money he is getting if someone would give it to me it doesn't mean i deserve it.
     
  28. Rock Sexton

    Rock Sexton Anti-Homer

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    Where is this so-called "intelligence" on display? I don't see a cerebral QB out there at all, certainly not one out there playing chess with defenses. The book on him is easily spelled out - sit on the underneath stuff and cloud the passing lanes because his forte is comebacks/curls.
     
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  29. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    We know he's an intelligent guy. That has never been in question. In fact, he may be a bit too calculated an individual to ever let intuition and instinct fully take over. I don't predict Tannehill ever going out and looking like Aaron Rodgers but I want to see Miami win on Sundays at some point in my life and the first step is too build some continuity in the roster year to year with guys that can play. I don't think he's someone destined for the Hall of Fame, but damn, he's got a lot of potential and I can see him being an incredible asset over the next 10 years.

    Consider how upstanding he's been during his time in Miami. That tells you a lot. He speaks very well. He's cautious and upstanding in what he says. He manages to do it in a way that still feels honest. From day one, he's always represented the franchise perfectly from an off-the-field standpoint and being a Man-of-the-Year candidate only reinforces that he's got the right attitude to succeed in whatever he does. And maybe that's where I come away impressed. Football, to me, is not something which is mysterious. You give me a prospect that is tough (doesn't miss playing time), mature (willing to work hard) and intelligent (able to understand concepts and execute on them) and I'll show you someone who will predictably get better over time.

    The point is, intelligent people with a desire to succeed develop themselves with experience and eventually become leaders just like the people that were in charge when they came aboard. As the years go by, Tannehill will very likely become faster, more deliberate and more instinctive in playing QB. I don't worry about that stuff to be honest. Where's the evidence to suggest that QBs just level off or even that Tannehill's off track in his development as an NFL QB? Think of him on a team where he's the veteran guy and not one of his WRs or his LT. I imagine a player with toughness and a desire to get better with an even better set of instincts and more leadership in-game. Maybe he's not the best in the game but the NFL doesn't require you have the best.

    I'm disappointed that so many people seem to think development ceases early. Experience matters. Age matters. When you're talking about developing confidence, particularly in someone who's intelligent, it takes time because there's no falsity in their ego. They have to go and do it. There is no sense of bravado. There is no gunslinger there who believes he's better than he is. We have to remember, at one point along the way Tom Brady was a skinny, baby-faced kid who looked a bit overwhelmed as well. Do I think Tannehill has the inner fire of Rodgers or Peyton Manning? No, but I've also watched those guys lose to players like Eli Manning and Joe Flacco. There will be a future for Ryan Tannehill in the NFL. What he brings as a package, I fully believe someone will develop.

    As cbrad said, it's really a matter of getting the right coaches in Miami and letting them go about developing him from this point.

    To be fair though, a big part of my getting behind Tannehill lies simply in the fact that the Dolphins are statistically unlikely to get anything better in the draft and with the risk that involves, I don't want to see the team go that route.

    I'm also VERY sick of seeing the team re-structure the roster every couple of seasons. It's getting to the point where I'm honestly asking myself whether or not I want to waste my time watching this team if they're never going to be mature enough to make a plan and stick to it even in the face of a few struggles or a down year here or there. I see Tannehill as being still untapped from a potential standpoint so I'd really like the team to commit to the next leg of the journey.

    Stick with the contract. Why not? What are we so afraid of? I'll gladly risk another couple underwhelming seasons because of what's at stake. I'm a fan. I want to see the team win and I want to root for the guys on the team. If it was physical, I'd be upset. Since it's mental, I think all of this will improve with experience.

    He's young. He's barely played 60 games. Most of the elites in the league are at 150 or 200+. It's early.
     
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  30. muskrat21

    muskrat21 Well-Known Member

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    under bill lazor's playbook, it's the other way around. all the route except 1 are short of the sticks.
     
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  31. BigNastyDB13

    BigNastyDB13 Well-Known Member

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    Riiight. So now that Lazor is gone, who's fault is it, will it be when thrill continues to throw 3 yard passes on 3rd and 8? Or get a guy killed on 3rd and 2 by throwing a 0 yard pass? Grown *** man in his 4th season and he's held accountable for nothing. It's not even his fault when he CHOOSES to take the easy 2 yard pass knowing it's going to result in a punt. There's a reason our offense has been garbage ever since thill took over despite the wr, te, rb, ol, oc and hc changing. Thill is a coach killer.
     
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  32. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    You have done a good job on framing your post to make Tannehill look like he is much better than he is and Miami is without options. But there are so many things misleading about this post. Good effort though.
     
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  33. Kud_II

    Kud_II Realist Division

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    Emphasis on after. Which means if we don't trade him I have to watch him start for another season and get cut... I'd much rather get a trade this offseason. This team needs the extra picks badly.
     
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  34. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    Why can't we just all agree we have a bad team, bad coaches and a bad QB??

    Evidence is smacking you in the kissers....dont run from it.
     
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  35. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

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    Play calling could be a lot better (more rolls outs, RB and QB runs, play action).

    He needs to scramble. Needs better pocket presence. Needs to be more consistent. Needs to learn to audible.

    In other words, he's not a natural QB. He's a smart, tough athlete that tries really hard and that's about it.


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  36. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Do you actually believe that they are changing the entire offensive scheme with a couple games to go?

    No?

    Good. Then maybe you understand that the same plays, designs, and concepts will still be called. The difference should be the amount of runs should be much higher.
     
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  37. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    You do realize that Greg really isn't a Tannehill guy? He's had his arguments with people on here because of stuff he's said about Tannehill.
     
  38. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

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    That's pretty funny because you're making two assumptions.

    Your first one is wrong with me at least. Maybe everybody else was in a marching band and has never played football in their lives, but how likely is that?

    Your second one really makes me laugh. Salguero released a report that claims there's a divide on Tannehill between our front office and our coaching staff. Guess which side supposedly has less faith in him.

    Before you say "Oh, that's probably BS," just know that the coaching staff isn't going to say that in public if they do feel that way. Whether or not you choose to believe it should depend on Salguero's credibility.


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  39. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

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    This too. The irony.


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  40. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

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    Oh wow. Been playing Madden lately?

    Give me some Xs and Os.

    Edit: every freaking football team ever runs those plays.


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