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Beasley - Advanced Stats Show Ryan Tannehill has regressed in Year 4

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Bumrush, Dec 13, 2015.

  1. Ohio Fanatic

    Ohio Fanatic Twuaddle or bust Club Member

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    The endless Tannehill bashing threads. We never make any progress, so what's the point?
    Have to say, it's become so boring and the fans so petty and narrowminded, that for the first time in over a dozen years, I don't look forward to coming to our forum anymore. (and yes I realize ThePhins hasn't been around that long, I'm including Finheaven when it was still good).
     
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  2. Phins_Fan_87

    Phins_Fan_87 Phins and Heat fan Club Member

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    didnt know we need advanced sats to tell us this. ryan is a good qb but not a guy thats going to win you anything.
     
  3. Bumrush

    Bumrush Stable Genius Club Member

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    That doesn't make sense.
     
  4. Bumrush

    Bumrush Stable Genius Club Member

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    That doesn't make sense.

    The advanced stats lean towards Ryan being a terrible QB.
     
  5. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think this is how an awful lot of us feel right now... I'm right here with you. It's painful to come here now. Sadly though, it's got less to do with the performance of the team, and more to do with the content. It's ridiculous arguments on both sides, it's more about being able to say "I was right" down the road, hell, even old threads have been mentioned to do exactly that from the Henne era... It's just gotten ridiculous, and painful to come to this area of the form.

    I agree with you, and it sucks that it has to be said.
     
  6. Bumrush

    Bumrush Stable Genius Club Member

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    I disagree brother.

    The QB position is the most important position in all of professional sports and it's important to debate it.


    We are tame compared to other cities, a QB debate in a place like New York would dwarf this.

    The future of the team heavily lies on Tannehill and our next coaching staff. It is prudent to beat this horse until the outcome is determined.
     
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  7. Ohio Fanatic

    Ohio Fanatic Twuaddle or bust Club Member

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    The debate itself is fairly lame. One side is completely focused on Tannehill as a single entity and the other side is completely focused on the crappy *** team on the field, crappy coaching....
    It's like watching two 8 years olds argue because neither of them are smart enough to see the big picture. When in this case, the truth is clearly (as it almost always is) in the middle.
    - Tannehill is not an elite QB, never has been, never will be
    - The team surrounding Tannehill, specifically the Oline and coaching has been garbage, always has been, and right now has a good chance of not improving.

    This is a team game and this team has some of the worst talent in the NFL. Tannehill has shown that he's good enough to win with good talent around him, but he can't carry a team.
    If we had a front office that could assemble a good team, then we can win with Tannehill.
    Seems pretty simple to me.
     
  8. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    In season HC and OC change, to me he is playing about as well as I'd expect him to be playing.

    To me, more exciting is guys emerging like Miller and Matthews
     
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  9. Bumrush

    Bumrush Stable Genius Club Member

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    Neither side is taking an extreme position.

    I think they are closer to agreeing than disagreeing.

    Everyone agrees that our OL needs to be improved. We disagree to what extent and disagree to what extent a more mobile or "aware" QB would mask those deficiencies.

    I'm pretty certain that everyone agrees that Tannehill isn't an elite QB. We disagree on whether or not he can lead an improved roster to a Super Bowl without carrying a disproportionate load.

    We all agree that our coaching has sucked. We disagree to what extent and can debate if better QB play may have made the coaching staff look better.

    At the end of the day, it's a crapshoot because there are valid points to both sides. You are probably right, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
     
    Ohio Fanatic likes this.
  10. LI phinfan

    LI phinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Amen to both you and Ohio!. This used to be the first place I would come to with a cup of coffee to scour the forum for information. Now I might go days at a time without stopping here. Same people with the same tired arguments ... We all know this team is not very good or the quarterback has struggled. But let's have three or four threads about the same topic.. Gets tired and boring. I don't understand the reasoning of beating a topic to death. Thanks for making me feel like I'm not alone


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  11. Ohio Fanatic

    Ohio Fanatic Twuaddle or bust Club Member

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    If the debate was discussed in such a manner, then I'd have no problems. But as with any fan base, the small %age of reasonable discussions are drowned out by the idiots who have been galvanized by an oversimplified, biased POV on just one player.
     
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  12. Rock Sexton

    Rock Sexton Anti-Homer

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    There is little else to talk about and the QB is the most polarizing subject on the team now that the coaching staff has been purged.

    However, I do agree that the conversation is getting redundant at this point. Over-simplified though? That's casting a wiiiiiiiiide net Ohio. I've seen many people break down the arguments quite thoroughly.
     
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  13. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    Hey was wondering if anyone had any advance stats to see how Tannehill is doing this year?
     
  14. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I'm actually surprised more people haven't taken this position in these arguments TBH...

    I mean, lets be honest about this fact. What did people really expect when we replaced Clueless Joe, with Dan Campbell? The guy has Zero experience as a head coach, he's been a position coach for a handful of years, or a coach in general in any capacity for only a handful of years. He can motivate... great.. wow. That helped for what, two whole games, against two teams who were playing far worse than us at the time?

    We then replaced Bill Lazor... who I think we all know now, wasn't really doing much to help this offense. So, we replaced him with Zac Taylor. You know, the guy who wasn't even qualified for being a QB coach when appointed the position by Philbin/Sherman. What success did we really expect to find by making him the interim OC?

    Did we really expect those moves to solve the problems, and make the offense as a unit, or Ryan Tannehill as a singled out player significantly better? It's the blind leading the blind with this coaching staff. We drafted a project QB. The first thing we should have done after obtaining the services of his college HC, as OC, was get him a strong experienced QB coach to help aid his progression at the next level.

    I think we really need to be honest with ourselves about the expectations with these kinds of changes midseason. We replaced incompetence with those who worked on the staff that was proving itself to be incompetent. That's really all you can do mid-season.

    When you start firing your coaches mid-season, you're essentially kissing your season good-bye IMO.
     
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  15. emocomputerjock

    emocomputerjock Senior Member

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    Sadly, WPA and EPA are no longer around, because those were my go-to outside of DVOA.
     
  16. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    To me, the improvement in the Wr corps performance and THill's improvement throwing the deep pass, are the two most positive things to take away so far from this season.

    Downside is, the offensive line is still a mess, with no one improving at the Guard position at all
     
  17. cuchulainn

    cuchulainn Táin Bó Cúailnge Club Member

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    Agreed, and the arguments are presented in a thin-skinned, petty manner that are often more personal shots at other posters than simply offering debate. Neither side seems to be able to just let it go. I hate the sort of pettiness that seems to have infected the board the past 3 or 4 months on here.
     
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  18. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    I think basically the Tannehill lovers are tired of the site, cause ...well.... they realize they might be wrong.
     
  19. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I believe that when I quoted the same stats from Football Outsiders a few weeks ago, the perennial Tannehill supporter said something like, "Those are just silly made up numbers with no proof behind them."

    So there's no sense trying to discuss this using any type of logic- especially when you're making a completely valid point. You'd be better off saying that Lauren Tannehill is an angry voodoo priestess that's sapping Tannehill's mojo and transferring it to her Barbie dress-up dolls. Besides, that's a lot more fun to argue about than something like proof...
     
  20. LI phinfan

    LI phinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    25, you read what Ohio and Brandon posted and this is the conclusion you arrive at? That's not even close.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  21. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    No, I think the cynical, angry, and immature posters who just come to be jerks have become the most active posters. That's a real problem because their attitudes and lack of civility helps instigate fights which drive away good people.

    It doesn't matter what side you're on, the forum is ruined by people arguing pointlessly about the same thing. The way this forum is right now, it feels remarkably like others I've seen die.

    Eventually you wind up with a forum that has no redeeming qualities. You know when the bully takes over the playground?

    It's not that anyone's weak but the post counts are leaning heavily away from those who seem friendly and informed and more towards those who have nothing better to do than kick a dead horse and act snotty.

    Just recently I've had to put a couple guys on ignore. I don't even know if I agree or disagree with them, I'm just sick of seeing them go back and forth with each other in every single thread.
     
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  22. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    No, this exact post, is exactly what people are tired of.

    It's got nothing to do with anybody's stance on the QB. You don't know my stance on the QB. However, here you are classing people as "Tannehill Lovers". Like, that's the kind of garbage people don't want to read, regardless of the opinion on the QB. How about having some respect for the opposing viewpoint, even if you may not disagree with it? It's not about who's right, and who's wrong. It's gotten to the point where people can't have a discussion around the topic anymore, regardless of their opinion, because it gets beaten to death by the same pointless tired arguments from the same people, then the name calling starts, then you're classed on one side of the argument or the other, just like you've done here... It's ridiculous.
     
  23. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    And I think this part here, that I've bolded, has really led us to the point we are today. Those you are referring to, with their relentless attitudes and arguments at all costs have really driven away the conversation about the topic at hand because people just... can't be bothered to deal with it.

    I mean, we had a thread here after last week about Phillips and Bobby McCain, that someone made a comment on Tannehill in... like... seriously?

    In other area's of the form, the discussion continues on, because it's being done in a much different manner. However here, in the mains, it's now just the same 4 or 5 folks, over and over and over, because nobody else can be bothered dealing with the way it's dealt with here. If some of you consider that being right, or winning, it's not... It's just become people not choosing to deal with you because there's no point in talking to you based on the way you interact with others.

    Sorry for taking this off topic... but maybe it'll help..
     
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  24. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    You're both right and wrong at the same time....because the site was the exact opposite a few years ago. Back then, anyone who had anything negative to say about Tannehill was so thoroughly flamed to pieces that there was no reason to even bother posting here, and now those folks are returning for their "I told you so's". But we have a few that will argue to their grave on Tannehill's merits and it's just not healthy for the site.

    I'll admit that I was sucked in the other week and tried to logically explain my point of view, but it was met with the same childish banter that started ruining this site years ago. The only difference is that a god part of the forum now sees Tannehill as below average, yet it's the same folks keeping arguments alive and ignoring any sensible thing that others say. And the only way to avoid that is not to post at all...which again sucks for the community. Until the moderators ban the remaining few haters here, that's the only way every thread doesn't become a Tannehill flame-fest.

    Because make no mistake- this is not a recent problem. Folks are just now realizing it, however, because those who don't/didn't care for Tannehill are no longer in the vast minority.
     
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  25. Ohio Fanatic

    Ohio Fanatic Twuaddle or bust Club Member

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    or..there are just some really stupid, short-sighted posters in the main forum...
     
  26. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think folks have to be conscious enough to admit when they're wrong..I think the new posters have been misjudged because of their stance on tannehill rubs some the wrong way..

    I think the forum will be fine, we always are, we have a level of discourse and respect here and it has its way of weeding the scrubs out..you haven't been here very long to see how things go down.
     
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  27. my 2 cents

    my 2 cents Well-Known Member

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    I post once in a drive by any more..but I still come by every now and then......and I do not have a dog in this hunt...but I will say both sides are at fault and both sides deserve credit also...my opinion is that it is the nature of the player and the nature of the poster individually that is so divisive. People are naturally defensive of the position they take and the world is about 50-50 as to positive nature or negative nature. Ryan Tannehill is statistically speaking the most inconsistent QB over the last four years in the NFL. Some choose to see the good and some choose to see the bad. The OL people want to blame is generally middle of the road.....and in the end expectations and reality measured against the value invested are what people need to see in order to get to a point where you either believe or do not believe in Tannehills abilities.

    The reality is he is inconsistent, he is both really good and really bad, he has a ton of skills and a ton of "issues", he is neither the problem or the answer in my opinion and that is generally backed up statistically, he does not carry a team nor does he bury a team...........both both "sides" want to believe there is an absolute answer......the question is what gets lost in the fight...first is can he take you where you want to be??...second is does a QB like this take you where you want to be and when does he do it if he can and does?

    I personally think he is Rich Gannon since the day he was drafted and I do not want to get into the arguments here.....but FWIW I think the passion is great and someday the answers will play out....that day is getting closer ......
     
  28. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    just because they dont agree and take a hard stance doesn't mean their stupid.I haven't seen anyone being stupid...i think some folks see things differently, some are better at certain things then others.
     
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  29. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Obviously, I've been sucked deeply into this stupid debate. I do apologize. Frankly, I just get sick and tired of the constant negativity, and I think that my responses, and my looking at what I consider the positive side of things, often have me characterized as more pro-Tannehill that I actually may be, at least this season.

    That being said, I'll try to avoid this stuff more...it's hard, though, when I see people quoted that I have on ignore. LOL
     
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  30. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    There is still EPA available. It's a component of ESPN's Total QBR. Tannehill is 26th in the league in Pass EPA at 32.1. The highest is Carson Palmer at 89.5. If you take elite as top 5, then Tannehill would need to add exactly 40 points to tie Dalton at 72.1. Just to show how bad it is, Kirk Cousins is 13th with Pass EPA of 55.0. Our athletic QB is also last in the league with a run EPA of -4.4. Peyton Manning is a better runner than Tannehill by adding exactly 0 to the team. Tannehill actively hurts the team when he runs. In total EPA, factoring in passing, running, sacks, and penalties, Tannehill is 31st in the league ahead of Nick Foles. His total EPA is 10.6. He'd need to improve by 54.6 points to become elite. More points than any of his individual metrics. These stats are good because they isolate his play from the rest of the team and it's not pretty.
     
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  31. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    Not to mention that last year when Lazor custom made an offense for Tanne is the only time he had good comp%.
     
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  32. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    You mean negativity towards Tanne, right?

    Because the fact is that you and your bro are ultra negative about most of the rest of the team...
     
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  33. Bumrush

    Bumrush Stable Genius Club Member

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    Heart wrenching stuff. This franchise is doomed.
     
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  34. Ohio Fanatic

    Ohio Fanatic Twuaddle or bust Club Member

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    that's right, because no other good QBs have systems customized to their strengths.
     
  35. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    Some people think it is ok to say "I love Tannehill" but not for someone else to say I dislike Tannehill. I find that interesting. I do find it interesting to see that there are people who think he will be ok, and those that do not. Personally I don't really see any attacks on one another. I guess some see an attack if someone does not like how they view a player. If one does not like who they like it is a personal attack, that is not the case.
     
  36. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    good thing you don't get involved in personal attacks.
     
  37. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    Would you not agree there are people that love him and those that don't? Love = want him to stay QB not matter what. Those that don't realize he is not the answer. I don't see proclaiming someone as a Tannehill lover or a dislike of him is a personal attack in any shape or form. If you like him, that doesn't mean anyone dislikes you, however I will say that if someone does not like TAnnehill they are the ones that get called names.
     
  38. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

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    Lol. And how is the system customized to Tannehill anyway?

    40+ passes per game, shaky OL, no real commitment to running the ball. They're not catering the offense to RTs strengths they're basically asking him to be superman to overcome it's weaknesses.
     
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  39. emocomputerjock

    emocomputerjock Senior Member

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    It makes me sad that the Advanced Football Analytics guys sold out to ESPN, but hey, at least it's still visible somewhere (even if QBR is horrid garbage).
     
  40. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    Most good OCs, are known for THEIR offense, an offense the've developed over time, and they take that same offense wherever they go.

    Usually when you have to custom make an offense for a QB, it's because the QB has limited ability, and Lazor custom made an offense with a ton of 0 to 3 yard routes, because the QB has difficulty seeing the entire field and completing passes down field.
     

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