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Big Boy Talk on Gase

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by tirty8, Jan 5, 2016.

  1. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

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    I think that Adam Gase is the most polarizing name on our coaching list, and I think it is time that we have a big boy conversation about him. Instead of having "little boy" chat about him saying you like him or you don't like him, I want this thread to be exclusively for "big boys". You need to discuss specifically what you like or dislike about him. "Big boy talk" will use statistics and data to make their assertions. "Big boy talk" will not just simply regurgitate what the talking heads from ESPN say.

    I will get the ball started. I think hiring Gase would be an absolute mistake. Gase became the hot name last last season after his second year as an offensive coordinator. Manning, a top 5 all-time quarterback, finished the season with a quarterback rating of over 100 for the 6th time in his career. His team included: D. Thomas, E. Sanders, J. Thomas - all elite receiving talent. It is interesting to note that Manning's long time offensive coordinator Tom Moore, despite all of his success with Manning never received a head coaching gig, likely because the insiders knew that Manning was the real talent. What makes Gase any different from Moore? Moore had more sustained success but his name does not seem to be nearly as hot.

    Eventually, Gase was fired along with the entire Fox regime by Denver after they failed to win a Super Bowl. Gase was linked to the job, but Elway chose not to hire him. This is quite telling.

    This year, Gase went to Chicago where the Bears finished with a 6-10 record. In terms of talent level, the Bears were no where near what the Broncos have. The talent in Chicago is much more similar to the talent in Miami than the talent in Denver. Let's see how the Bears compared to the Dolphins this year:

    Points per game:
    MIA - 19.4 (27th)
    CHI - 20.9 (23rd)

    Rushing yards per game:
    MIA - 93.5 (23rd)
    CHI - 115.7 (11th)

    Passing yards per game:
    MIA - 238.2 (19th)
    CHI - 228.9 (23rd)

    Total yards per game:
    MIA 331.7 (26th)
    CHI 344.6 (21st)

    Passer rating:
    RT - 88.7 (21st)
    Cutler - 92.3 (16th)

    With the exception of rushing yards, Gase's numbers are rather pedestrian. Remember, the level of talent he will inherit in Miami will be much closer to that of Chicago than that of Denver. Currently, we do not know what the future holds for Miller, and there is a chance that Ajayi may be our starting running back next year. Ajayi has shown promise, but as far the consistency and reliability of Matt Forte who was number 11 in rushing this year despite missing games, Ajayi simply cannot compare at this moment.

    Additionally, Gase lacks in experience. You have a very small sample size with him as an offensive coordinator with only three years to look at. He is only 37 years old, and I wonder if he is capable of keeping the locker room together if the season starts out shaky.

    Ultimately, I ask Gase supporters, "What specifically makes you think Gase will work?" Do you think our roster is closer to the Broncos than the Bears? If so, hiring him makes sense. Do you think RT is as good as Payton Manning, and he is vastly underachieving? If so, hiring him makes sense. Do you think E. Sanders, D. Thomas, and J. Thomas are comparable to Landry, Mathews, and Cameron or are they closer to Jeffrey, Bennett, and Royal? If you think that we essentially have the Broncos' offense, hiring him makes sense. If you take an honest look at our roster, I think most would agree it is much closer to Chicago's.

    Finally, if we look at Gase's most recent performance in (6-10) Chicago in isolation, I ask you, is he closer to being the next coach of the Miami Dolphins or closer to getting fired? Remember, he is the offensive coordinator.

    23rd in points per game (bottom third of the league - almost in the bottom quarter), 11th in rushing (approximately in the top third), 23rd in passing yards per game (bottom third almost in the bottom quarter), 21st in total yards (middle third), Cutler's passing rating is 16th (top half of the league).

    If I am wrong, please explain to me how I am wrong. Don't just tell me you like him, tell me what about him you like. If I am missing something, I would gladly rethink my position, but right now, this looks like such an obviously bad hire.
     
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  2. daphins

    daphins A-Style

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    You're wrong. Gase would be an incredible hire.

    When looking at SB winning coaches you have to dive into deeper statistics than that. Of the coaches who have made the most Super Bowl appearances:

    Bill Bellicheck
    Don Shula
    Tom Landry
    Chuck Noll
    Joe Gibbs
    Bud Grant
    Marv Levy
    Dan Reeves
    Bill Walsh
    Bill Parcels
    Mike Holmgren
    Vince Lonbardi
    Tom Flores
    Jimmy Johnson
    George Seifert
    Mike Shanahan
    Tom Coughlin
    Hank Stram
    Dick Vermiel
    Bill Cowher
    Mike Tomlin
    Pete Carroll
    John Fox


    All of the above coaches have appeared in 2 or more Superbowls. Together they account for 67 Super Bowl appearances.

    See the trend? All but 4 have first names that consist of 4 or less characters. Of the 4 that don't Jimmy can be shortened to Jim, Vinny to Vin, and an outlier shares a name with chuck Norris.

    Adam Gase meets the requisite number of letters in his first name to win multiple Super Bowls, but that's not where it stops. Look at the last names. Nearly each ends with 3 unique letters...except again 4


    eck
    ula
    dry
    oll
    bbs
    ant
    evy
    ves
    lsh
    els
    ren
    rdi
    res
    son
    ert
    han
    lin
    ram
    iel
    her
    lin
    oll
    Fox

    Noll, Carroll, Couglin, Tomlin. This hard to do. Notice there are no "ase"names.

    4 first names over 4 characters, 4 last names with different endings. 4 letters in Adam 4 letters in Gase.

    Also...

    Don Shula - 8 characters
    Chuck Noll - 8 characters
    Joe Gibbs - 8 characters
    Bud Grant - 8 characters
    Marv Levy - 8 characters
    Adam Gase - 8 characters

    Everything is number bruh....it's meant to be.....





    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  3. Canad-phin

    Canad-phin Active Member

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    Real answer is many are behind this kid. Cutler has no multiple int games this year. Cutler best season ever. The top 4 targets in Chicago missed 31 games. That does not include their first round draft choice White out for the year. Chicago was not a good team last year but we're much more efficient this year. Going to the Denver years, they had the best year ever with him there and Manning had his best year ever. Before Manning got there he helped Tebox lead the Broncos to the playoffs, albeit in a down year for the division. I'm not entirely on board but this kid has everyone behind him if you believe the talking heads. SI did an article about him being the number 1 head coach prospect coming into the year and all he did was help Cutler to his best and most consistent year ever. Don't compare him to guys like Cameron or Philbin where we only heard about from their past HC how great they were and no one else offering them contracts. Gase turned down the 9ers job last year. Would be an interesting hire. I like the way he makes his system fit his players unlike what we've done in the recent past.
     
  4. Steve-Mo

    Steve-Mo 'Saban' Guy

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    Except on Sunday when he threw 3.

    [/littleboytalk]
     
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  5. Ohio Fanatic

    Ohio Fanatic Twuaddle or bust Club Member

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    that should end the thread right there. :up:
     
  6. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    That my friend....was just....awesome.

    Bravo!...lol

    One of the best replies of the year!
     
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  7. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    [​IMG]



    sorry, but the thread wouldn't be the same without it.
     
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  8. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    As for the topic at hand... Good research. I think sometimes you have to look beyond the stats though. Gase is a guy, who by all accounts is well liked, well respected by his players, he's a guy who's worked his offense to fit his players skillsets, and he's mentioned that in several interviews. He's a guy who's well respected by some well respected names in football. The reputation is there, there's a track record there, and he was able to get the best performance out of Jay Cutler that has ever been seen to this point.

    Where I'd have some concerns with him are his leadership abilities. His players have all said good things about him, but does he have the ability to lead a locker room on both sides of the ball. how is a guy with his experience, and of his age going to command respect of NFL veterans, how can he handle adversity... etc, etc. Those are the things we can't evaluate, but the things that would concern me. Has he done enough at this point, to make NFL players fall in line, and stop and look at him on that first day of team meetings when Gase and his staff start laying out their blueprints for success.

    So many times when hiring coaches, especially first time guys, you're taking a risk. There's nothing you can do about that. All you can do is assess him based on what players, coaches etc tell you about him, what his plans are for the team, what his plans are for his staff and assistants and you go from there.
     
  9. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    I don't think he's the right hire, he hasn't proved anything, he's inexperienced, he's only been an OC for one year really, so I would pass on Gase,
     
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  10. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    ...and with my 12th post I'm going to tell people who've been here for almost a decade what they are going to post in my thread!


    Here's the thing, tirty, you want big boy talk and claim stats are needed, but you base your entire premise that the talent level of our offense and Chicago's offense are the same...without showing any "big boy" evidence as to why they are, you just make the declaration that they are.

    Outside of Alshon Jeffery & maybe Zach Miller, I wouldn't trade any of our skill guys for their counterpart on offense.

    Gase getting that putrid unit to those numbers is respectable.

    He was also the QB coach that got Tebow to the playoffs and even Cutler (arguably the most arrogant player in the league) admits that Gase has helped him to his best season, as does Peyton. (Also, lets not pretend that Denver Peyton is the same as Indy Peyton).
     
  11. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    I literally LOL'd when I saw that it was his 12th post and all the "big boy" talk. I mean, c'mon.
     
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  12. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think you guys are giving him a hard time about the "big boy talk" reference for no reason. I think what he meant was he wanted a thread, unlike many of the threads in the mains that lack substance. No responses of "I don't want Gase. I don't like him", or "he sucks" Etc. etc. I think he just wanted some quality answers and discussion surrounding the topic.

    Maybe that wasn't conveyed properly... but I don't think that's unreasonable to ask for.
     
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  13. dgfred

    dgfred Free Agent pickup

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    Cutler couldn't get much worse... and if not for his contract wouldn't have even been there this year.
    They stunk this year... as we did. I don't want the same old, same old.
     
  14. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I think you just illustrated how it could have been put better.

    Again, if this was a vet of this board, it would be easier to take.
     
  15. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    Perhaps he could have worded it better, but I commend his intent to get a serious debate going.
     
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  16. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I do to. I'd like to see more serious debate.

    I'm just not sure how calling serious debate "big boy talk" is setting up serious debate.
     
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  17. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    Ironic how the people that stir things up, stir it up on this one too LOL
     
  18. Splattoreus

    Splattoreus New Member

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    I find the amazing thing here is that, not only did you make hilarious reply... but that you typed all of that out on your phone.
     
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  19. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    I'm a little boy at heart.
     
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  20. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Well away from here
    I'm still wondering where the real stats are to be honest. Just sayin.

    But as we all did he will adapt.
     
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  21. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Why do I feel like this isn't the first time you've waited patiently for some guy to grow and flower?:tongue2:
     
  22. NorFlaFin

    NorFlaFin Active Member

    One thing that keeping getting in mentioned in relation to Gase and Cutler. Gase did not develop Cutler further as much as he called plays to cut down on Cutler mistakes. I have not seen anything written where Gase is given credit for Cutler's improved footwork or ball placement(if any).

    Is the increase by decrease?
     
  23. FinSane

    FinSane Cynical Dolphins Fan

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    It must've took mad typing skillz.

    Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk
     
  24. MAFishFan

    MAFishFan Team Tannehill

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    Tom Coughlin <old man talk>
     
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  25. heylookatme

    heylookatme Well-Known Member

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    I'll bite. I think the Miami Dolphins have better skill players than the Chicago Bears, particularly at quarterback and wide receiver. I will take Ryan Tannehill over Jay Cutler 7 days a week and then some. I think the Miami Dolphins and Chicago Bears both have crappy offensive lines, admittedly with the edge to Miami being the crappier due to injuries. I think the Miami Dolphins played a much easier schedule for offensive success with the AFC South and NFC East, than the Chicago Bears did with the NFC West and AFC West.

    I know that despite my opinion that the Miami Dolphins have better skill position talent and played a much easier schedule, in the second year of continuity under Bill Lazor, they were still outscored by the Chicago Bears in their first year under Adam Gase. I know that the Chicago Bears, despite having a careless, washed up quarterback and a serious injury to their only good wide receiver, still somehow had a more efficient passing game than the Miami Dolphins.

    I will put on my Big Boy pants and welcome Adam Gase to Miami if he can bring a good defensive coordinator with him.
     
  26. Puka-head

    Puka-head My2nd Fav team:___vs Jets Club Member

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    Slightly left of center
    Here's some big boy talk. Being a great HC doesn't have a dang thing to do with stats, other than W's vs L's. I couldn't care less how good a coordinator anyone of em is. Can he get 53 spoiled brats and their billionaire princess owner to do their jobs? Can he manage a team and a game at the same time? Can he evaluate talent on the field and the sideline, trainers, ball boys, doctors position coaches etc. and train and equip them for success?

    No offense to Gase and no stats to back it. but I think no is the answer to my questions so...pass.
     
  27. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    Armando posted a blog on Gase today, being Ross' favourite at this point, apparently. I can't claim any great knowledge about the individual coaches but this approach seems right. How much risk-taking can the Dolphins take? Is it worth taking a gamble on Gase when there are proven coaches available?

    "Stephen Ross favorite candidate to this point? The wrong guy


    'Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.'
    --George Santayana

    Even as the Miami Dolphins wade through the first steps of their current head coaching search, some members of their search committee have favorite candidates early on. One of those is club owner Stephen Ross, who has the ultimate and final say on who his team hires.
    And I have been told by multiple people that Ross most likes Adam Gase at the start of these interviews.

    That does not mean Gase, the offensive coordinator for the Chicago Bears, will be chosen as the club's next head coach. Indeed, the Dolphins have already interviewed three men not named Gase -- Mike Smith, Mike Shanahan and Teryl Austin -- and are scheduled to interview Buffalo Bills running backs coach Anthony Lynn Wednesday, former Buffalo head coach Doug Marrone and interim Dolphins coach Dan Campbell on Friday and have Pats offensive coordinator Josh McDaniels, Pats defensive coordinator Matt Patricia, and Cincinnati Bengals offensive coordinator Hue Jackson on their wish list. Gase, 37 years old, is scheduled to interview Thursday. He is scheduled to interview with four teams this hiring season so he is a hot name.

    And all that is well and good except for one thing:
    Adam Gase has been an offensive coordinator in the NFL all of three seasons. He was the OC under John Fox in Denver in 2013-14 and he just completed the 2015 season under Fox as the OC for the Bears.
    And the Bears just finished 6-10 despite Gase getting credit for helping quarterback Jay Cutler.
    And before that, Gase was fired along with Fox from Denver when that team failed to advance in the AFC playoffs in 2014.
    So, yes, the kid is a hot name, but his resume isn't exactly awe inspiring.

    Fine, forget that. Erase all that from your mind, in fact. Consider this as more important:
    Adam Gase has never been a head coach. Anywhere. And the Dolphins have gone down this purgatory road before.
    The Miami Dolphins were once upon a time a team that sought and usually got high-priced, high-caliber head coaches. Don Shula had been to a Super Bowl and an NFL Championship game when he came to Miami. Jimmy Johnson had won two Super Bowls when he came to Miami. Nick Saban had won a national title at LSU when he came to the Dolphins. But lately the Dolphins have become the minor leagues where coaches come to learn how to be head coaches. Cam Cameron had never been an NFL head coach or successful head coach anywhere when he was hired by Miami. Tony Sparano had never been an NFL head coach when he was hired by Miami. Joe Philbin had never been an NFL head coach when he was hired by Miami. That's nine seasons of our lives with inexperienced head coaches none of us will ever get back.

    Look, I covered these guys. They didn't know what they didn't know when they got here. Indeed, Bill Parcells once told me that he sometimes saw mistakes Sparano was making during the week of preparation and how it might affect the team on game day, and then game day would come and, sure enough, the problem Parcells foresaw happened. But he couldn't or wouldn't tell Sparano not to make the mistake during the week because the team's head coach had to have the authority to do what he believed was right without someone meddling.
    Cameron was amazing in that he was disaster. He thought himself the smartest man in the room but he was never the wisest man in the room. He alienated Zach Thomas and Jason Taylor at the same time after his first practice of his only training camp in 2007. (Long story). He wanted his football team to "fail forward fast." He got the bright idea of letting more experienced assistants play head coach in a preseason game in case something ever happened to him. Never mind that he needed all the experience coaching he could get and his assistants had been head coaches before.

    Philbin? God bless him, he had no idea what to do in front of a team. So he outlined his postgame speeches on index cards initially until I wrote about it, and it became an embarrassment. He could not deal with players that had alpha personalities. He was sort of passive aggressive with folks in and out of the building. He didn't know how to make friends or allies in the media and wasn't smart enough to even want to. Yes, he tried to adjust but he had trouble being himself.
    I remember one time when the ice bucket challenge was a thing, Philbin agreed to take part so that his team would consider him one of guys. So he did it on a day other people were doing it. And after he did it, he walked over to me and mocked the whole thing as dumb. So he did it. But he didn't want to and didn't believe in it. But he couldn't bring himself to be true to himself. You think Don Shula would have agreed to do things he didn't believe in? He's the guy that often talked about "the courage of your convictions." Shula wouldn't be bullied by anyone. He once threatened to punch owner Joe Robbie for a perceived moment of disrespect! What I'm saying is haven't the Dolphins had their fill of hiring guys that need on-the-job training?

    Hasn't Stephen Ross learned from his hiring mistakes that he's not really good at identifying new NFL talent? John Harbaugh circa 2008 is not walking through that door, Mr. Ross.

    And so what should the Dolphins do? Well, instead of repeating the same mistake all over again and surely putting themselves on a path to the same results, they should hire a new coach who has head coaching experience.
    I get it. This team wants to address their quarterback issue. And Gase seems gifted in that area. But that's what an offensive coordinator or quarterbacks coach is supposed to do. That is not what a head coach can necessarily be counted on to do.
    The next Dolphins head coach cannot walk into the job and face 50 things he never knew were coming. And that's the first day of work. This organization has wasted time, resources, sweat, blood and hope hiring guys that were unprepared for that because there is no way to be prepared until you've done it. The fans deserve better. The team has multiple experienced head coaches on its interview list: Shanahan. Smith. Marrone. Tom Coughlin is out there waiting to be plucked up by a courageous team.
    Say what you will about them, but those guys know what they're doing. Shanahan has won Super Bowls, plural. Coughlin has won Super Bowls, plural. Smith has taken his team to the playoffs. Marrone's last Buffalo team was 9-7 in 2014 and you know what their record was under brash, attention getting Rex Ryan in 2015? The Bills were 8-8.

    Ah yes, about the sexy coach hire.
    Gase I suppose is a sexy pick in some respects because he's the "it guy" now. But this isn't about picking the it guy, this is about picking the right guy.The right guy is one who will command a room and respect. The right guy is one with experience who can fix your quarterback and your defense. The right guy is coming to his interview with big names as his potential coordinators. For example, Marrone will pitch Jim Schwartz, who has been a head coach and is a proven defensive coach, as his defensive coordinator. Gase will likely pitch Vance Joseph, the guy who succeeded Kevin Coyle as the Bengals defensive backs coach and has never been a coordinator, as his defensive coordinator.

    The right guy is the one who knows what to do on Day One."
     
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  28. RGF

    RGF THE FINSTER Club Member

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    Hey, this is a "big boy" thread, better brush up on your infantile addition skills.:tantrum:
     
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  29. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The second L in Noll is silent and there for does not count.
     
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  30. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Well someone had to stick up for you.

    Of course hindsight is 20/20. :lol:
     
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  31. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    Michael Serrania's take on Adam Gase - PhinsPhocus:

     
  32. darefugee

    darefugee Active Member

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    Don't you just love it when people tell you what YOU need? I know I do. I rank it right up there with "Your problem is..."
     
  33. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    How do you know it is not the first L that is silent?
     
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  34. scotty_irnbru

    scotty_irnbru Well-Known Member

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    Some people want experience. Some people want a new guy. Some people want a previous success. Some people think the success was too long ago. Some people want a hot college coach. Some people say that hasn't worked before. Some people want only former head coaches. Some people don't want coordinators.

    From our coaching search I've concluded that when combined most people dont want a coach.
     
  35. SICK

    SICK Lounge Moderator

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    [​IMG]
     
  36. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Ross chasing the trend again, to me, a rather uninspired move if hired
     
  37. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/mehta-kid-coordinator-manning-attack-mind-article-1.1594808

    Article from the beginning of 2014:
     
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