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Hopefully we hurt Brady enough to effect today's outcome.

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by pumpdogs, Jan 16, 2016.

  1. Steve-Mo

    Steve-Mo 'Saban' Guy

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    Yes, another could probably be found, though to be fair an equipment manager isn't quite a ball boy. They're on salary and probably not applying for HEAP in the winter. For the record, I want cash, but I'll take the hush money in annual checks after I threaten to go public. A rather large loose end, sure, though this was a hypothetical.
     
  2. Hiruma78

    Hiruma78 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    I understand the rational arguments defending the Patriots and I think they are legitimate, what I don't get is

    one: the outrage if someone think that gaining illegal advantage could have some weight on the game (and I repeat that, if you really consider Brady and BB HOF caliber, then you should think that even the smallest edge could make a big difference: if you have an high opinion of them you should clearly be more worried about the effect it could have): why the outrage?

    second: honestly, I just don't get why one person should gave them the benefit of doubt: they cheated, they were warned to stop, the still did it, they were busted, they admitted, they were punished for it... and still, one should be very very very skeptic of any hypotesis that they still cheat and have blind faith that any advantage they obtained was meaningless? exactly...why? because Brady is a super QB and BB a super coach?

    third: I don't get the fuss about how much of an advantage it is... is clearly something that none of us can measure in any numeric-precise way, but...so what? it is logical - unless they really are a bunch of morons - that, if they still keep it doing it after they were warned to stop it, they at least thought that it gave them some help... even very little, but, again... if you think that Brady is good as you think and BB is as good as you think...then they are amazingly difficult to beat on a fair ground.... imagine if they had some kind of little help?

    @finster: about doping, well... a couple of points:

    one: I don't know for others, but it actually matters to me and quite disappoints me (when I read the book about the concussion problem and the story of the Steelers center in the '70 it was a mix of disappointment and horror, for me), I think less of a player when something like that come up.
    I don't condone in any way dopping or anything like that but I still honestly think it is a separate issue, because is not (I think, but maybe I am wrong: the Seahawks' cases, for example, put some doubt about this) something organized by the team, something where the organization put a stamp on, but something that the single player try to do to gain an unfair (or you could argue a fair if really everybody is doing it, as they said during the cyclism scandal) advantage, not only against the competitions in other teams but even against his own teammates. I am not saying that's less important or dangerous, just that, to me, is a different animal.

    second: while it's a "maybe" that almost every player in the league is dopped, about the tape-gate the problems was that they were specifically warned by the League to stop it and clearly other teams stopped doing it (if they were doing it before)... they still didn't care and keep it going: I don't know if that was because BB thought to be above the law, because in some way he is an unsecure persone inside (I guess that for somebody is difficult to think that a very successfull person like him and with that kind of character to be unsecure, but the human mind is a strange beast in my experience) or just because he thought that the advantage was too important... and honestly, I don't even care. the point for me is: the other weren't doing it (anymore, maybe); the Patriots were warned that what they were doing was illegal; they still did it.

    That's enough to me to think less of them and, honestly, I think it's just something they brought on themselfes... and that's the reason I don't get why we should gave them any benefit of the doubt.



    lastly, I know that I am in a clear minority on this, but... I don't know if I would want BB on my team: I don't give a f*** about winning if I don't feel really satisfied with the whole thing, as I said I even hope that every team we face is without injuries, because I want our wins to be the cleanies possible, without any excuses for the other teams... I don't even like when the referee helps us with some dumb call you can imagine how could I feel if something like the tape-gate would emerge about the Dolphins. I understand that most don't agree with this and I am fine with that, but I say this just beacuse for many here seems that the problems is that weren't the Dolphins, to win and cheat... for me it's not that and if something like that would happen to us, I honestly would be crushed (yes, even after 3 or 4 super bowls)

    to conclude: sorry for the long rambling and sorry for my bad English :)
     
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  3. 2socks

    2socks Rebuilding Since 1973

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    every child in the stands given under inflated balls during the Panthers games are bribed to smile for the camera
     
  4. 2socks

    2socks Rebuilding Since 1973

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    The Patriots were never warned to stop anything and there is no proof they did what they claim. Period. Reread the thread it is clearly demonstrated. Especially the ball thing. It was shown the Colts balls were exactly the same way. All over the map. So I am concluding if Brady cheated so did Luck. Lets kick them both out of the league. Hell lets just throw both clubs out of football. Maybe they can play baseball instead. They have a long history of cheaters.

    How about all these guys who use drugs to heal quicker or enhance their athleticism. They are cheaters too by your standards. Hell then almost every team cheats. We should just shut down the league

    Ridiculous
     
  5. Hiruma78

    Hiruma78 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    yes, for me doping is cheating, just it's not very relevant on this topic (meaning, for me it's not something that I put on the team or coach, but on the players), beacuse we were talking about franchise and systematic cheating (and doing something the others don't do: others team stopped taping when the Patriots kept it doing it)
    yes, for me, if a sport is demonstrated to be clearly corrupt and without fair game, I tend to abandon and stop following, so if in some way it should emerge that every NFL team has his own set of rules (like taping illegaly for one or, let's say, doping his players with hormons etc), I likely would gradually stop watching the game (like it happened with soccer-european football here, in Italy, or with cyclism, both sports that after major scandals- one about corruption, the other about doping - lost almost all the interest to me).

    I don't get why should be ridicolous, just as I don't get why you are so outraged by all of this, but...whatever: maybe for some reason you are more emotionally involved than me in all of this, I don't know.

    second, actually they were warned by the NFL (and even from Mangini) to stop do it (the taping), as it said in this link from the nfl site

    http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000...ents-surrounding-patriots-videotaping-scandal

    or as you can read here

    http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/13533995/split-nfl-new-england-patriots-apart

    but it's likely just a media invention and I-we should have blind faith in the Patriots.

    as I said before, I don't get the outrage, but it's all good: it's ridicolous, they even lost a couple of drat choices, but it was for fun, no wrongdoing here.
     
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  6. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

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    You're disregarding the human element which can be fooled, strong armed or even bought.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  7. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I feel like for everything to fit together in your view of this, it takes leaps of logic and suspension of belief. This isn't court, but even if it was there's "reasonable" doubt and your scenario does't seem reasonable. It just doesn't seem reasonable that all these coincidences aligned at just the perfect time to make them appear guilty when they weren't.
     
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  8. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

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    Circumstantial. There are no cameras in the men's room and Brady's phone was neatly destroyed.

    They never did find Hernandez murder weapon either, but given his history and involvement in past investigations we don't afford him the benefit of the doubt. Gotta give him credit for at least trying the Patriot Way out.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  9. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    I understand what you're saying, but you would actually need one of the other teams headsets to listen in, there isn't a code to get in, and those headsets are like gold, if a headset went missing, they get a whole new set of headsets, it really is impossible to "get in" to those headsets, but I wouldn't put it past them to get a jammer.
     
  10. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    Apple to oranges, as usual, you can't compare companies that are hooked up to a world wide computer system designed to let everyone play to a closed circuit headset that is designed to be closed.

    Not to mention that it's totally different technology.
     
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  11. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    We can hash out deflate gate until the cows come home, but a fact that isn't being hammered home is, there is no deflating this year, and does anyone see a difference in Brady's play?

    Whether or not they were doing it, it obviously had no effect on his play, which would probably lend strength to the case that they weren't doing it.
     
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  12. Steve-Mo

    Steve-Mo 'Saban' Guy

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    That's your prerogative. This is a Miami Dolphins website after all.

    This isn't like not finding Hernandez's murder weapon. It's more like adding up circumstantial evidence that Hernandez MAY have killed someone, but having no body and no missing person. The person you think he may have killed is alive and well, but by golly, why in the hell did he close his blinds for 90 seconds, send such and such a text message, own a gun, ect. Must have killed... somebody, right?

    I'm not seeing that on your NFL link, the closest being: "CBS analyst Charley Casserly alleges that Patriots were warned by League to stop using a camera to steal opposing signals." I know the BSPN one does though.

    But this is really the core issue here. He effectively WAS told to stop, via the memo from the league. The thing is, you cannot change the rules via a memo - an owners vote is required - and Bill Billichick knew this, ignored the memo and pretty much told them to piss off. Obviously a huge mistake as it continues cause issues like "deflategate". The memo read as follows:

    And the rule:

    It would seem easier to simply ban recording signals as the memo appears to prohibit videotaping of any kind, anywhere, depending on how you interpret "accessible to club staff." But we know teams continue to film the games.
     
  13. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Its not apples to oranges. Its a frame of reference. Nothing is untouchable.
     
  14. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    FTR, my stance has nothing to do with my fandom.
     
  15. 2socks

    2socks Rebuilding Since 1973

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    I had a conversation with a guy who was a customer of mine who just happened to be the head of his IT dept at Lexus Nexus. I asked him to clarify for me what 256 Bit AES encryption was. He told me it was the most advanced encryption in the world. I explained our little back and forth regarding the whole cheating stuff and he told me it would take multiple of the worlds best computers and many years to break the password auto generated encryption key codes. I asked him if the FBI or CIA had the tech to do it and he said no.

    So looks like the NFL did something right for a change
     
  16. Agua

    Agua Reality: Try It!

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    Sure. No way to circumvent a helmet in an official NFL trunk - like put a separate comm device in it after it's opened.
     
  17. keypusher

    keypusher Well-Known Member

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    For purposes of Godwin's Law, Ryan Tannehill is the Adolf Hitler of thephins threads.
     
  18. 2socks

    2socks Rebuilding Since 1973

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    Ignorance is Bliss
     
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  19. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    ?

    How am I being ignorant?

    You're the one that knows a team that has cheated multiple times is innocent.
     
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  20. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    3. You admit your ignorance on the issue.

    4. Kraft said he would accept whatever the league handed down before goodell decided. He wanted to fall on the sword to save Brady. Goodell punished both heavily and Kraft was super pissed and thought about going back on his word. But he didn't and accepted it. He apologized to his fans for it.

    I'm not anti-Tannehill. Im just not a blind homer. Had high hopes for Tanny he was a qb in all 3 of my fantasy league rosters. Had to drop him though for Derek Carr and Carson Palmer.
     
  21. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    From the yahoo article.

    Yet posters in here still believe it Happened. It's like the ugly girls hating on the prom queen. You are Letting your hate of the Patriots cloud your judgment.
     
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  22. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    All they did was prove that the conditions were right for the balls to naturally deflate. Nothing more.

    There's still all the other damning evidence of the video and the texts, that weather and science can't explain away. But you know that.
     
  23. 2socks

    2socks Rebuilding Since 1973

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    you guys are ignoring the facts on the encryption technology. Before you make statements that the Patriots are cheating by somehow manipulating the technology Educate yourselves.

    So far, IMO, the headset and deflated ball theories have been shot down - so your down to the 2000 and 2002 tapes which the Patriots by the other poster's article had them going 5-5 I believe. During one of those years the Patriots were 5-11. It's just silly. You guys seem to want to disregard them as irrelevant because they supposedly cheat. It is the furthest thing from the truth.

    The Patriots are relevant and are about to possibly win their 5th super-bowl.
     
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  24. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    So Doug Flutie made up the story about the mic not shutting off?

    Encryption has zero to do with the Patriots messing with the signals of opposing teams. Perhaps they haven't been hacking in and listening to other teams, but that doesn't prove they weren't doing the other stuff.

    They most certainly got hammered for Spygate, and there's a reason why Goodell destroyed all the evidence.

    You Patriots defenders are incredible.
     
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  25. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    They have not been shot down, you're just so eager and ready to believe they are these pristine choir boys of greatness, you'll believe any weak *** explanation given to you.

    None of you or in the media have explained the video and texts and Brady destroying his phone. None of you have proven the mics can't be intercepted or jammed.
     
  26. 2socks

    2socks Rebuilding Since 1973

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    What?

    It has been scientifically proven by dozens of scientists and colleges the likes of MIT and Harvard the balls were the same for both teams and you completely ignore the fact. Shot down? oh yea with giant holes.

    First you guys claimed they were talking beyond the 15 seconds allowed by rule. When I posted the rules you guys then claimed it wasn't controlled by officials. The damn trunk is set in front of the Instant replay camera for the entire game and yes an official controls it because by rule the mics have to shut off at the snap of the ball or at the expiration of the play clock. Now that those claims don't fit your agenda, they are somehow interferring with others headsets on the other sideline. Come on Fin D, your better then that.

    I am not the one claiming they are cheating you guys are. You make accusations and have no proof of anything regarding the process. You guys criticize the journalists any time they write something you don't like about the phins as being traitors, haters or whatever is the in word for the day. Yet when you read something somewhere else you take it as gospel because you want to hate the Patriots sooooo bad. Hate away it is your right
     
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  27. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    No they proved the conditions were right for the balls to deflate on their own. That doesn't mean they did. What you haven't explained or even acknowledged is the texts, video and destruction of Brady's phone.
     
  28. 2socks

    2socks Rebuilding Since 1973

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    Actually I was just reading them. They are bull**** and prove nothing. What Brady telling Jastremski he didnt do anything wrong. What else......lets see Jastremski and Bird joking about having some new kicks in their lockers because of the heat they were taking. They were joking. The wells report even says they were.

    Bird even tells Jastremski he checked the balls this morning and they were 16 and the refs ****ed them. They joked between themselves about wait till next week Tom is going to get a ****ing balloon for a ball.

    None of what I read proves a damn thing.

    16 Fin D. comeon I thought they were deflated ....hmm seems that atmospheric pressure thing really did **** with the ball like all the scientist say
     
  29. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

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    Still didn't quite address the human element.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  30. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

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    Doug Flutie is just jealous of the dynasty.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  31. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    There's no realistic human element here with the encryption. It's safe to assume the Patriots aren't decrypting the signals through opponent headsets.

    It's easy to jam the signals though, especially at crucial times during a game, and the Patriots have definitely been accused of that throughout the years.
     
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  32. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...strated-by-headset-issues-at-metlife-stadium/


    http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...fensive-struggles/?ocid=Yahoo&partner=ya5nbcs

    http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/09/08/patriots-cheating-suspicions-bill-belichick-tom-brady?xid=si_social

    Is Miami cheating?
     
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  33. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Yeah not saying Patriots did it or not (though you have to admit it's really suspicious sometimes), but you're definitely right that headset issues crop up in other stadiums too. So who knows.. personally, I'd rather have firm proof instead of allegations so I wasn't insinuating anything with my post except that we should get off this idea the Patriots are decrypting signals, and that jamming is at least realistic (not just easy to do but relatively easy to get away with).
     
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  34. FinSane

    FinSane Cynical Dolphins Fan

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    What about the fact that from 2007 and on the Pats were far and away the least fumbling team in the league? And how other teams weren't close to being as careful with ball? That's the damning part of deflategate that people forgot. It's not just that Brady liked his balls a certain way, so did the Pats coaches who we're looking to cut down fumbles by their RBs and receivers. Stats showed that Patriot RBs and receivers fumbled way less when they played for NE but afterwards when they played on other teams they went back to fumbling at a normal rate. Explain that one.

    http://www.sharpfootballanalysis.co...iots-mysteriously-became-fumble-proof-in-2007

    Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk
     
  35. Steve-Mo

    Steve-Mo 'Saban' Guy

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    http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2016/01/05/...-deflategate-fumbles-tom-brady-bill-belichick

     
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  36. FinSane

    FinSane Cynical Dolphins Fan

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  37. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Seriously?

    These are BEFORE the investigation btw.

    I'm sorry but you're in complete denial.
     
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  38. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-s...en-k-balls-for-patriots-chiefs-144409367.html

    Hilarious
     
  39. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Nail. Coffin.

    Deflategate is so stupid.

    All summer I argued with people about that stupid fumble rate, that was not even calculated right by Sharp MisAnalysis. And here we are, 2015 is over, and they have the best fumbling rate, over ALL of the dome teams, over everyone else.

    The fumble rate was PROOF of their deflation.
     
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  40. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    We've been down this road before, but while you're right that Sharp's analysis has holes in it, others (like Brian Burke) looked at the fumble rates and there's no question NE had abnormally few from 2007 if you ignore dome teams and you assume the data are correct (the data I can't check but I did check the analysis long time ago).

    Since 2007 was the year the rules changed (allowing every NFL team to provide its own footballs for offense) it does seem like the two are related. Are they really? Who knows, but the fumble rate stat isn't where to point the finger. The question is what's behind those stats. That is, why does NE have such a low fumbling rate and why primarily from 2007? It's a valid question.
     

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