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Support from coach helps QB confidence

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Shane Falco, Jan 23, 2016.

  1. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Totally disagree. In principle, if you can design a system to take maximal advantage of your players' strengths, then that's the theoretical best system you can ever devise given those players.

    The problem is that not all coaches are equals when it comes to designing a system that fully takes advantage of player strengths. Most are generally not good at that so do what 2socks described and create systems/playbooks that on average will work better (hopefully) regardless of the players. So "tailoring to your players" is the theoretical optimum, but in practice you might go a different route because coaches generally aren't good at doing that.
     
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  2. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    I agree.. it seems bizarre people would argue against this. Some do it better than others, so you can say some OC's change plays relatively little compared to other OC's but to say it never happens??
     
  3. Brasfin

    Brasfin Well-Known Member

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    Exactly DJ, it's such a simple topic that I honestly don't even understand what is in question.

    Your QB excels at throwing on the run ----> you design more rollouts, bootlegs, etc
    You have a RB who is agile and has great acceleration but not a run through the tackles kind of back ---> you use him more on outside runs
    You have a WR who is tall and physical but slow to get in and out of breaks and create separation----> you use him more in the redzone


    It's not rocket science.
     
  4. Laurence

    Laurence Banned

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    I agree with that. What I meant to say (but didn't) is that the players' talent will place a limit on the degree to which adjustments can make the team more competitive, and beyond that, adjustments do nothing to make the team more competitive. At that point greater player talent has to be sought, versus more adjustments around the same talent.
     
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  5. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    If we were to follow every argument you make down to its logical conclusion, we're left with everyone but the QB being exactly the same across the league.
     
  6. Laurence

    Laurence Banned

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    But this kind of gets at the point I was making. Rollouts and bootlegs may be more effective for the QB you have, but they may at the same time make you less competitive in the league in which you're playing, because of the way the league functions and the talent elsewhere in it. In other words you may get a gain from having your QB roll out and throw on the run more, but in terms of the overall effect of that on your competitiveness with other teams, it may be a net loss, in comparison to what you'd get from having a QB who didn't have those limits and didn't need such tailoring.

    When you're bootlegging and rolling out, decreasing what you can do to only half the field, that may not be competitive against the Aaron Rodgers's of the league who can stand back there and make subtle movements in the pocket and pick you apart in all directions. In other words, when you're starting to "adjust" to talent, you're already behind the teams that have to make no such adjustments.
     
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  7. Brasfin

    Brasfin Well-Known Member

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    I think Gase will try and tailor the offense around the strengths of his players but at same time focus on developing their weaknesses behind the scenes so as to be able to have some flexibility and minimize this effect you're talking about.
     
  8. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    I totally agree. While I realize the Dolphins have a lot of holes to fill on the defense and the OL. I would not be upset at all if they draft Lynch or Goff in the first round if either of them are available when the Dolphins are on the clock.
     
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  9. Laurence

    Laurence Banned

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    And that would be good theoretically, but if he doesn't get practice in that in games, because he's being "adjusted to" by his own coaches scheme-wise, then he's unlikely to develop in that regard. If he is getting practice in it in games, then you're at least inching toward the sort of thing we've seen for the past few years that people have complained about, where Tannehill is a square peg in a round hole, being asked to be a pocket QB when quite possibly he's not.

    The trick for Gase IMO is going to be figuring out how to at once maximize Tannehill's strengths, while using a scheme that's competitive in today's NFL. The scheme can't become non-competitive in the service of compensating for Tannehill's weaknesses.
     
  10. Laurence

    Laurence Banned

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    I wouldn't to that far, but I would go far enough to say that variation in talent at the QB position is more responsible for variation in team play than any other factor in the league, currently.
     
  11. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    The engine is the most important part of a car, its not the only thing that can hinder its performance.

    And you do essentially go that far actually.
     
  12. Laurence

    Laurence Banned

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    It may seem like it in this context, but in another perhaps I'd readily point out to you, for example, that the 2015 New Orleans Saints were a below average team because of their horrendous defense, despite their excellent quarterback play.
     
  13. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    I think this is somewhat of an oversimplification. In addition to optimization of the players skillsets, you have to optimize to your opponents skillsets, as well as optimize toward ideal plays, and still be unpredictable. The Wildcat is a great example of optimizing to your players strengths, but ultimately it failed because it was predictable and it wasn't yielding the type of plays that impacted games very much.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk
     
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  14. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Um...that proves his point. Good QB play isn't a guarantee of wins, since there's many other parts/players on the team who need to do their job in order to win.
     
  15. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Ok, so is it just defense in general that can lose games, or are there parts of the defense that can cause them to be so bad? Like dline or secondary, etc.?
     
  16. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Yeah you're right of course.. I was focusing on just the degree to which it would be better to adjust the system to the players. Independent of any other variable (how well the system is designed given the opponent), what I said is true. But yes, if you take that statement out of context and just look at whether it's true or not, one would have to add the qualifier "relative to the opponent" in there.
     
  17. Laurence

    Laurence Banned

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    "Optimizing toward ideal plays" was what I was getting at above. Bootlegs and rollouts are not ideal plays in today's NFL.
     
  18. Laurence

    Laurence Banned

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    His point was that my position is that "everyone but the QB is exactly the same across the league." The post you quoted was designed to show that isn't my position.
     
  19. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    That depends. Wilson does pretty well on rollouts and bootlegs.
     
  20. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Posting this again....


    Ok, so is it just defense in general that can lose games, or are there parts of the defense that can cause them to be so bad? Like dline or secondary, etc.?
     
  21. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    So if your TE was basically a 5th offensive lineman but the defense couldnt cover the TE up the seam, you would force your player who doesnt have the skill to execute the scheme to run down the seam all day?

    I don't buy it.
     
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  22. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Or, if you have no fast or tall physical receivers, you make them run go routes all game.
     
  23. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    QB play is heavily influenced by other units, like OL. That's what we were talking about with those pressure vs. no pressure stats.

    That's separate of course from any claim about which one influences the other more. You say the QB influences the OL more than the other way around. That may or may not be true, but let's not suggest QB play is relatively independent of the other units' play.

    btw.. this NE vs. Denver game is a great example of how DL>OL leads to worse QB play on the part of (especially) Brady.
     
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  24. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    Right. Also I think what "scheme" is in this conversation is being under valued. Scheme is not just a set of plays. Scheme is all of the following:

    1) How your offensive line blocks for your back
    2) Where your receivers line up
    3) Your receiver route combinations and who runs what most often
    4) How often do you play action?
    5) Run vs Pass balance
    6) How your running game and passing game compliment each other. (Example: If you don't run stretch plays its unlikely youd run a play action off it)

    The list can go on and on. Those are the things a coach means when he talks about a scheme that fits his players. Not just drawing plays for them.
     
  25. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    "tailoring", means exactly that, it means making something specifically for someone, getting something "tailored" means custom made for you.

    It doesn't mean you have to write a new playbook, but maybe you should emphasize another part of the playbook, 3 and 4 wide, single back, we should have been in single most of the time, with an extra TE or WR, and we were the last team at that time to run the pro set, which was a stale formation at the time that Shula had ran to emphasize the run game, there were too many dump off receivers on the field and not enough attacking the mid to deep.

    As great as Shula was, Marino extended his career beyond what it should have been.
     
  26. 2socks

    2socks Rebuilding Since 1973

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    What are we going to play hypothetical now. Please save it. If you got to run a linemen as a tight end you got other problems needing to be addressed. If the defense couldn't cover him as you state that would be a pretty good linemen/tight end, wouldn't you say?

    For the 4th or 5th time please someone tell me or show me where Gace has "molded" his offense around him players. You can't and won't because he hasn't.
     
  27. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    No...in his hypothetical, you are facing a defense that has shown that throughout the season that they can't cover the tight end up the seam. YOU have on a your team, a big, slow tight end, who's really more of a lineman. Do you run that big, slow tight end up the seam every play, even though that isn't something that your tight end can do?

    Of course people are making up hypotheticals. You are the one claiming that saying he is going to mold the offense around his players is BS. We're trying to show why your thought process is incorrect.
     
  28. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    No it doesn't. It just means calling plays that accentuate the player's abilities. You can do that with plays you already have or make up new ones. You literally point that out which contradicts the blue with the red.

    As a side note, I think its little silly to say Shula didn't put Dan in the best position to succeed as a passer. Granted, he did a poor job of drafting and setting up the running game and defense, but he did nothing wrong getting the most out of Dan.
     
  29. 2socks

    2socks Rebuilding Since 1973

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    I'd get a new tight end. Which will be exactly what the Dolphins will do and have done since coming into the league. If the players can't execute - you get new players.

    If you are telling me that Gace's statement means he will not be looking to draft or bringing in new players to make the team better then we are ****ed. Because this team is not good. Bringing in new players is not "Tailoring" your team.

    What is Gace really saying? Does he know he has inferior talent to run the x's and o's? Apparently he does or he wouldn't have said it
     
  30. 2socks

    2socks Rebuilding Since 1973

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    What abilities? These guys are fast or slow. Can block or not. Can catch or not. Can kick or not. Are there some type of abilities that all other coaches don't know about?

    Dan Marino was - well Dan Marino. Guy made the whole team better. And yes looking back Shula road the wave. He did nothing to enhance DM's abilities he was already a QB GOD

    At times Shula put other great athletes on the field with Marino. The same thing Gace will try to do.
     

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