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Dave Hyde's top 20 QB's of all time.

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by dolphin25, Jan 27, 2016.

  1. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    I think you are vastly underrating the things Tom Brady does better than anyone I've ever seen. Specifically, seeing the field, knowing the coverage he is facing (a few things could've helped this:yes:), accuracy and ball placement are incredible, and of course he is as clutch as they come.

    Would I rank him #1?? I really would have to think about it and factor in things I feel are relevant.....but make no mistake, Brady is incredible.
     
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  2. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    No doubt they are a great team with a great HC, but Cassell didn't even lead them to the playoffs playing the weakest schedule the franchise has probably ever seen, now if they had gone to the SB with Cassell you would have an argument.

    Brady performs at a high level on the biggest stage, and you don't get to the SB 6 times without that type of play from your QB.
     
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  3. PSG

    PSG Clear Eyes. Full Hearts.

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    North of the Border
    Boom goes the dynamite.
     
  4. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    Meh, it's not that hard when you know the coverage before the defense does. ;)
     
  5. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    It wasn't the weakest schedule. And they were only like the 2nd team in something like 25 years to not make the playoffs after winning 11 games. In that season Cassell, up to that point, put up Brady-like numbers. In fact, if you look at Brady's average season (up to that point) and Cassell's season they were nearly identical. In other words, Cassell played just like Brady on that team.

    Brady's numbers, like most QB's, are worse in the playoffs. His QBR in the regular season is 96 and the post season 89. In fact, Manning has better post season numbers. If what you say is true then why doesn't Manning have 6 SB appearances? I'll tell you why. It's because Brady has had the better teams.

    Not including this post season, Brady has 14 post season games were he posted a 90 or less QBR. The Pats are 9-5 in those games. His career postseason QBR (not including tonight's) is 89. His regular season QBR is 96.

    Manning has 15 post season games where he posted a QBR of 90 or less. His teams are 5-10 in those games. His post season QBR is 88. His regular season QBR is 97.

    Is short, Manning, even though he's played on much lesser teams, has put up nearly identical stats to Brady. The difference is the Pats pick up Brady's slack and the Colts/Denver let Manning down.
     
  6. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    That was a VERY weak schedule, I know for us at the time it was our weakest ever(possibly one of the weakest ever since the merger in the entire NFL if memory serves), and they had the same schedule except for 2 games, with Brady they might have flirted with an undefeated season imo.

    As far as Manning, he just isn't the clutch performer that Brady is, plain and simple, and as far as much lesser teams, I can't really agree, overall NE has been better as far as year in and year out, but Indy had some really good teams, Harrison, Faulk, Wayne, James and Clark, Brady has never had offenses stacked with as much talent as Manning has had at times, with Indy, and now with Denver, and Indy was a GREAT team between 03 and 09.

    Manning's playoff struggles are well documented, just as much as Brady's clutch playoff play is, numbers can't tell the whole story, WADR.
     
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  7. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    "Clutch" is a myth used by sportswriters to make a good story for gullible readers.

    Manning has BLOWN Brady out of the water in regards to individual stats. He's played better in the playoffs than Brady. His problem was he used to have to put up 40 points a game in order to win. Brady just had to get within field goal range.

    Brady gets the glory, but New England has always been about defense. And in the few seasons that they have had a 10th ranked or worse defense they went nowhere. Throw in the cheating, (with Spygate Brady knew the plays and with deflategate his playeers fumbled and/or dropped the ball less), and you have the reason the Patriots have been so much more successful than any team in the NFL over the last 15 years.
     
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  8. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    Sorry, but stopped reading after "clutch is a myth".
     
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  9. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    I highly doubt that. I think you just can't refute anything in my post.

    If "clutch" is real, and Brady is clutch, why do his numbers drop in the postseason? During the Pats first three Super Bowl runs, in the post season, Brady topped 200 yards passing only three times. The Pats needed a defensive stop and a field goal to win those 3 Super Bowls. In the 4th Super Bowl win the Pats needed the dumbest of all calls to win it.

    In the Pats 18-1 season Brady choked the biggest ever by an individual in pro sports, IMO.

    Brady gets rattled easily. He sees ghosts if/when the opposing defense gets to him a few times. (Yes, this last game he was hit a lot, but Manning was also harassed all game with only a few less hits and one less sack.) Manning didn't throw two horrible INT's and have a 55 QBR.

    Between 2012-2014 Brady's 75.2 passer rating in the fourth quarter while trailing ranked 15th in the league. Tanny, for comparison, ranked 17th with a 74.4.

    Brady is a HoF QB who benefited from playing on great, albeit cheating, teams.
     
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  10. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    Numbers for all QBs drop in the post season because the level of competition is raised significantly, but I shouldn't have to point that out to a football fan.

    Yards do not = clutch.

    Oh, do you mean when Brady threw a TD to take the lead in that game with 2:45 left? Yeah, that's a choke artist, and by the way it's impossible to believe that people can choke and then there's no such thing as clutch, the 2 things go hand in hand.

    Being clutch doesn't mean you are immune to bad games.

    Cherry picking those 4th quarter trailing numbers?, well here's another for you, Brady has a 2-1 TD/INT(28-12) ratio when trailing for his career, Tanne, 7 TDs to 12 INTs, Tanne has already thrown as many INTs in that situation as Brady has in his entire 15 year career, absolutely horrible comparison.

    You're right, Brady is a HoF QB that has benefitted from playing on a great team, which is why he's QBed more SBs than any other QB in history, because he's great, on a great team, that's the only way that can happen.
     
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  11. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    Top 5 All time 4th qtr comebacks

    1. Peyton
    2. Brady
    3. Marino
    4. Elway
    5.Montana

    All time leaders in GW drives

    1. Manning
    2. Marino
    3. Brady
    4. Elway
    5. Favre

    Not a coincidence that all these QB's are very good. And Brady likely had a lot less opportunities as many of these guys because he plays on a team that is almost always ahead.

    Clutch absolutely exists, and Tom Brady is the definition of it.
     
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  12. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    Level of play? I thought we were talking about a magical gift called "clutch"? What does "clutch" mean to you? Does it mean you play worse against better opponents? Stupid me! I always thought it meant you played the best against the best and played better when the "time counted". Let me ask you this. Do you think a TD in the 1st quarter is worth less points than a TD in the 4th? Are they all not worth 6 points?

    NFL football players, ALL of them, from the worst RB to the best QB, have that "it" factor. (And by "it" I'm not talking magic. I'm talking skill and mentality.) That's why they are that fraction of a percent of society that get to do what they do and get paid a fortune to do it. Great QB's play better than average QB's...NEARLY every time, NEARLY all the time. That's why they are great. Great QB's don't play like crap and then wave a wand and somehow play better "when it counts". It counts at the first kick off all the way until the last second runs off the clock.

    You're trying to prove "clutch" is the first down and yet you keep moving the yard marker.

    QBR isn't all about "yards". I shouldn't have to explain that to a football fan.

    I love your Brady vs Tanny TD/INT ration. So Brady has had 40 passes that were either a TD or INT during the 4th qtr when trailing. In 15 seasons? Tanny has nearly half that amount in a quarter of the time playing? haha...You just proved how great the PATS have been, not Brady. Look how often Brady has had to "win one for the team!" Not very often...at least when compared to Tanny.


    As I've written before, Brady is a HoF talent. However, I still think the cheating had a lot to do with his success. OTOH, I think BB and the Pats defenses are light years better than Brady. Do you honestly believe that QB's like Manning and Marino etc etc...would not have had as much if not more success than Brady everything else being equal? If you say "yes" then you haven't been paying attention to football. Those QB's I mentioned carried their teams. This year, Manning is being carried. A 40 year old, injured QB, who could still play better than more than half the starters in the league, is being carried, like Brady, for once.
     
  13. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    What are the parameters for this stat? For the most part, "game winning drives" are worthless in regards to individual stats.

    In 2014, against the Jets in Week 16, Tom Brady picked up a "game winning" stat on a drive during which he did not attempt a pass and the Patriots did not gain a first down — New England started the drive from the Jets’ 13 yard-line after a turnover and kicked what proved to be the game-winning field goal. Game winning drive for BRADY!! haha
     
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  14. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    The parameters are self explanatory.....and Im sure all of the top 5 guys have an example of that type of comeback. Its a large enough sample size to be valid. And I certainly won't take the time to look up how often Brady has been in a situation to add one of these comebacks under his belt, but I'm guessing he has been afforded the opportunity much less than others.

    In his first year starting alone he engineered 4th qtr comebacks and GW drives in the playoffs, the guy has alligator blood. is what it is.
     
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  15. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    Like all three of his first Super Bowl wins? FG's?

    I don't care if all 5 of those guys have examples like I posted. That's why I wrote that this stat is pretty much meaningless in regards to individual performance.

    Brady is a hardworking guy who was lucky enough to play for some great teams, coached by a great HC... who cheats.

    What it "is", is foolish. Clutch is a myth. Brady plays no better in the playoffs than he does in the regular season. In fact, he plays worse.


    And like I've shown, even his bad games are are mostly wins.


    Must be magic.
     
  16. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    This reminds me of one of my fav sayings...

    People who dont get it, dont get that they dont get it.

    Show me how many QBs perform better (please add a solid sample size) in the playoffs than the regular season. If you dont "get" why? Then there is no longer a reason to debate it.

    And it must be magic that those QBs included in comebacks/gw drives are all basically the same names. Must be a coincidence and have nothing to do with rising to the occasion.

    In that SB many thought they would just run out the clock, but instead Brady sat back and disected the defense giving the FG kicker a chance to win the game...they didnt settle for a FG opp they were up against the clock.

    Anyone who has played sports above a little league level understands that some ppl play better in bigger situations/ moments....and those guys are called clutch.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  17. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    And BINGO was his name O.

    It's an impossible debate, he says that some can fold under pressure(choke) but playing well under pressure(clutch) is a myth, and doesn't even realize he's contradicting himself.

    It's like saying you can be sad, but being happy is a myth.

    " Oh, the C.L.I.T.(Coalition for the Liberation of Itinerate Tree-dwellers) is real, it's the female orgasm, THAT'S that myth" ~ Federal wildlife Marshall Willenholly
     
  18. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    He won 10 with the Chiefs a year after they won 4 games, and made the playoffs, won their division

    EDIT: Didn't win a playoff game.
     
  19. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Boom. He's arguing there is no yin, because of yang.
     
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  20. cbrad

    cbrad .

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  21. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    Yes, you obviously don't get it.

    You don't realize that you're proving yourself wrong in regards to "clutch".

    Again, if clutch exists where are all these QB's playing better in crunch time? In high pressure situations?

    Your list proves one thing...QB's who are good enough to play a long time, and all of them are/where very good. if you play long enough you have more opportunities.

    You ignored, however, Brady's 75 QBR (15th in the league) while trailing in the 4th quarter.

    Anyone who has played high level sports realize that average players play average, good players play good, and great players play great. It doesn't matter the situation. And sure, some have bad games.
     
  22. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    That's not what I said at all.

    But whatever you need to feel better.
     
  23. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    Again, when has Brady played better? Brady plays like Brady. Pre, Regular, and Post season. Sure, he's gotten better with experience, but that's not magic, it's experience.

    A player can play worse than their ability, but a player can not (consistently) play better than their ability. Thus, choke is real and "clutch" is magic.
     
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  24. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    Good article, albeit a little one sided.

    However, from your article:

    Amazingly, Brady's numbers actually drop almost as much as Manning's. Manning edges Brady in terms of passer rating by exactly 0.1 points in both the regular season and playoffs.



    So, why is Manning a "choker" and Brady "clutch"?




    Here, I'll help the author out.


    2007 AFC Championship: Played horrible throwing for only 154 yards, throwing 3 picks and got bailed out by the defense and playing against an extremely hurt team (Rivers playing on one leg, LT and Gates hurt)

    Super Bowl XLII: With one of the greatest offenses of all-time, could only score 14 points on the biggest stage. Couldn't do squat with pressure in his face the whole game getting sacked 5 times and fumbling.

    2009 Wildcard Playoffs: Threw 3 INTs and lost a fumble. Game was over after the 1st Quarter.

    2010 Divisional Playoffs: After 8 straight weeks off lighting up NFL defenses, was horribly outplayed by Mark Sanchez throwing an INT (after not throwing one in 335 attempts) and getting sacked 5 times against a team he lit up a few weeks earlier.

    2011 AFC Championship: Got outplayed by Joe Flacco and got help by the Ravens choking.

    Super Bowl XLVI: Played horrible in the 2nd half against scoring their last TD.

    2012 AFC Championship: Played absolutely horrible in the second half. Granted, the receivers dropping catches and the defense's poor play didn't help, but he was off the entire 2nd half. Team couldn't score a single point after halftime.

    2013 vs Indy. Brady posts a "clutch-like" 52% comp and 198 yds and a 75 QBR. They win. I wonder why?

    2014: Played well in each post season game.

    2015 Well, we all know how "clutch" he was against Denver.

    How many legendary game-winning drives like "The Catch" or "The Drive" has Brady had? He won so many playoff games early in his career because he was carried by a great defense and probably the best kicker ever. Every since the team's been built around him, he hasn't had many of those moments. Before SB 42, he had a 12-2 playoff record. He could of cemented himself has the greatest postseason QB ever had he won SB 42. Since then, he's only been 7-7 in the playoffs since winning the 2007 AFC Championship game including 5 terrible performances.


    Oh yeah....and cheating.
     
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  25. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    All this aside, and not to change the subject, Manning has played better in the post season than Brady. A person can use rings and wins, if they wish, but wins and rings aren't individual accomplishments.


    Clutch is akin to believing in magic. Sure, some people believe in magic, but they're usually 4 yrs old or in a nut house someplace. :)
     
  26. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    I'm not going to waste my time trying to convince someone two plus two equals four. Your acting like Vinateri was kicking 80yd GW FG's and Brady just happened to be there.

    And this goes beyond Brady...you think that "clutch" is fictional in general it seems.

    It's basically a combination of how you handle the situation mentally, relative to your performance. Everyone who has been in these type of situations at any level in sports recognizes what type of situation they are presented with...some let the situation defeat them mentally be it the bottom of ninth, 10 seconds left with the basketball, or a GW drive late in the 4th and some process the situation better and rise to the occasion.

    It's really that simple.
     
  27. dgfred

    dgfred Free Agent pickup

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    I have watched alot of games but that game between the Pats and Broncos really had my heart beating fast at the end. I don't know if it was because it was so amazing what Brady and Gronk did on the comeback, my wanting the Pats to lose so badly, or because it was such a gooood game. I could not believe they completed that 4th down pass right down the middle. It reminded me of Madden when the Safety lines up the pass receiver then watches him run right past. How can you let Gronk catch that dead into double coverage? Back-up Safety I know... but get depth son. That pressure on Brady was ridiculous... it will be different in the SB when Cam can turn up and run. They knew exactly in what general area Brady was going to be. Cam can run around, past, and over most defenders. Should be fun. Much will depend on how well the back end of Denver's D plays IMO.
     
  28. keypusher

    keypusher Well-Known Member

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    Not really true. Looking up the passing for the 1950-51 Rams -- still have a strong case for the greatest offense ever.

    Someone once showed me a very interesting article saying that, to contemporaries, the great quarterback of the 1950s wasn't Otto Graham. It was Bobby Layne.

    The key thing to know about Layne's NFL career is that his contemporaries had a much, much higher opinion of him than modern fans. The modern fan looks at his record, sees three NFL championships, mediocre passing stats, and figures he must have been like Terry Bradshaw- a bus driver on a dominant team. Otto Graham, now there's a quarterback. Look at his passing stats; why they look good even today.

    What you need to understand is that to the NFL fan, writer, or player of the '50s, there was no comparison. Layne was the superior QB, the best in the game as a matter of fact. Reading Time or SI archives reveals why. For one thing, Layne and the Lions almost always beat Graham and the Browns. For another, the NFL understood the two teams operated differently. Layne played for a hands-off coach, and called his own plays, while Graham played for "ur-Belichik" Paul Brown and ran the plays Brown called via his guard shuttle. Layne actually helped create the game plans during the week, and was considered a master at calling plays during a game. He would use running plays to set up the long pass, take advantage of gimpy defenders he noticed, and explain to his huddle what he was trying to do.

    Layne and Parker were the first to practice the 2-minute drill, and the first to master the routine of squeezing the most plays into the last few minutes of a game. He led the Lions to several late game comebacks, including one of his NFL Championships (over the Browns), telling his huddle before the winning TD pass, "You jest block a little for ol' Bobby and we'll win this thing."


    http://www.barkingcarnival.com/2008/09/11/the-incomparable-bobby-layne
     
  29. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    Of course you're not going to waste your time. (anymore)

    Because clutch is not real.

    What you call "clutch" I call an NFL, NBA, MLB caliber player. Once again, ALL NFL players are extremely good athletes and are capable, both mentally and physically, of doing things the majority of us can't.

    The media, and it seems those who believe in magic, wish to have the rest of us believe that some players can play better than their abilities during certain periods of the game. This is provably not true.

    Of course I don't believe that just Brady isn't clutch. When I say clutch is a myth, I mean for everyone.

    Obviously, for some, it's not that simple.
     
  30. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    That is a Madden philosophy, people are not automatons, everyone responds differently to situations regardless of how much talent they have, you have already contradicted yourself when you said Brady choked, what is choking? that is when a person flounders in a clutch situation, so that debunks your theory that everyone in all pro sports is clutch, and it also debunks your theory that clutch is a myth, because if a person can be affected negatively in a clutch situation, then obviously a person can respond positively in a similar situation, you can't have one without the the other.

    Some people take pressure better than others, that is just a fact, talent has nothing to do with it, nor does dedication to something, how do you suppose combat leaders are chosen? the ones that can keep their head when everything is chaos.

    Do you know who Audie Murphy is? A 5'5" hundred and nothing pound little kid with a 5th grade education, who was initially turned down by the military for being too small, when he finally got in he got sick going over seas on a ship, a weak, sickly, little country bumpkin of a kid that ended up being the most decorated war hero of world war 2, receiving every single decoration for valor this country has to give, and a couple others from other countries.

    Everyone handles pressure differently, regardless of talent, size or back round, people are not all the same.
     
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  31. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I think the problem here is a matter of differing definitions of the same word.

    I think danmarino is defining clutch as the ability to play better then one's typical ability in pressure situations.
    I think fin-o/finster are defining clutch as the ability to not choke in pressure situations.

    That makes you all kinda right and kinda wrong.

    There are a small handful of people who can play better or "turn it on" in pressure situations, but those people are not generally considered great (Flacco's Super Bowl run is an example) because their level of play in all other times is kind of meh.

    There are a small number players who wilt/choke under pressure, but most of those guys don't make it to the NFL because odds are they wilted/choked in college and NFL FO's saw that.

    Then there are guys who play great most of the time pressure or not, Marino, Montana, Manning, Rodgers, etc. and because these guys play great all the time, there's generally more opportunity to be in higher pressure situations.
     
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  32. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    Right.

    So you also believe "clutch" isn't a flat out myth just to a lesser degree.

    In the NBA you have guys like Ray Allen and Robert Horry who in the biggest of moments made the biggest of shots. They have a higher percentage of makes in these moments than they normally produce. You take a guy like Kobe Bryant who's career speaks for itself and he was horrendous in these spots. Hell, we see LeBron underperforming in these moments to this day.

    Look at Reggie Jackson and his career differential in regards to post season play vs reg season play. Lou Gehrig is best known for his consecutive games played, but his numbers in the postseason dwarf his career averages. I can't ignore the correlation between a man who was obviously as mentally tough as Lou and his ability to RISE on the biggest of stages.

    Also it sounds as if Marino is now saying Clutch is only a myth with professional level athletes. I disagree, if you believe it doesn't exist then it just doesn't exist.
     
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  33. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I don't follow other sports like I follow football. I do believe, however, other sports are easier to whittle down to individual performance than football.

    A QB can be clutch the way you personally define him to be, but the receiver he's throwing to could be a choker like you define choker, and the result will be a incompletion or an int or even a fumble instead of the win.

    I think, in football, clutch, needs to be defined in terms of personal performance not team performance. This is why I say both sides are right and wrong. I don't think either concept is being used correctly in terms of football and to make things even muddier, I think its difficult to determine the accuracy fo calling someone clutch, in football.

    Look at David Tyree. Made a catch that most consider the embodiment of clutch. But he sucked every other time. Did he rise to the occasion? Yes. Is calling him clutch all that accurate? No, not really.

    To summarize,

    - I think our parameters for gauging clutch aren't all that good at actually gauging clutch.
    - I think what we call clutch is often improperly applied to players who are already good no matter the situation.
    - I think its pretty rare for a player to play better then his normal level in pressure situations.
    - And finally, I think the players that tend to play better than their normal level of play do so because they are playing worse in non pressure situations, which I'm not convinced is an actual desirable trait.
    (All of that is for the football only).
     
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  34. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I believe players recognize pressure situations, some players stay cool, some don't..some players start to get nervous some don't...maybe it's as simple as that.
     
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  35. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I don't think anyone denies that. I think the discussion is about does that nervousness effect the performance and to what degree.
     
  36. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Brady has made plays, in all 6 superbowls, late, to put his team in position to win. Two of the losses, came on some amazing catches (almost a 3rd one last year). One of those catches, was an insane never gonna see it again catch.

    Football is a team game, and Brady is a part of those teams. And He's done enough to have his team almost win all 6. No matter what you want to call it, that's amazing.
     
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  37. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Dan was great, but he could also be kind of terrible at times. That's due to him not having a complete team around him and having to do too much, sure. But he takes a 10 pt hit in passer rating in the playoffs. A guy like Montana actually has a higher rating in the playoffs (amazing considering the era and what defenses could do back then). Most QBs take a hit passer rating wise in the playoffs (even Rodgers) so it's amazing when you see a few that actually stay the same or even elevate. Warner, Montana, etc.
     
  38. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    Great post.

    However, Fin-O changed what his definition of "clutch" was after the debate began.

    No one is arguing that some people are better able to handle pressure. However, every starting QB in the NFL is able to handle pressure. This clutch myth has caused some people to think that a select few people can elevate their game, ie play better than their ability, in times of pressure. And like I wrote above, this is provably false.

    Like you said, great players, and Brady is great, play great most of the time. However, I have NEVER seen a so-called ALL-TIME great fold under pressure like Brady has, so often.

    And again...cheating. We don't really know how good Brady is. Sure, he's accurate out to about 10 yards and he's a smart guy. However, knowing your opponents plays and playing on great teams and having a team turn over rate statistically impossible, IMO, adds to his "greatness".
     
  39. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    Montana's passer rating is exactly the same in both regular and post season. Dan takes a 9 point hit. Brady takes a 9 point hit in the playoffs. And that's in a watered down, can't touch the QB or WR league.

    The biggest difference is, the Montana and Brady teams were well rounded and playoff teams. Marino had to do a lot more to win than those guys ever did.

    Again, comparing players from different eras is difficult if you don't know how to go about it.
     
  40. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Well, I didn;'t include Brady in my list because he and his team are cheaters. I don't count Belichick among the greatest ever for the same reason.
     
    Fin4Ever and danmarino like this.

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