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So you don't need great QB play...

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Shane Falco, Feb 8, 2016.

  1. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Yeah...the Patriots won those Super Bowls, man. It's not all Brady, no matter how often you say it.

    For the record, Brady looks downright average when he gets pressured the way Tannehill does.
     
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  2. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    He's not dude. It's ok to have criticisms. He's far from a glass half empty guy. Whatever.
     
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  3. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    And?

    Its not mental, its cheating. When you have someone from the box (you know, high up and can see everything) telling you where to throw then it makes it easier.

    I'm soooooooooooooooo freaking tired of everyone excusing the numerous reports of cheating from that d-bag and his d-bag team. Its insane to me how sop many people just disregard the FACT that they cheat in every way possible and you all still felate them like they are the greatest of all time.

    It. Makes. No. Sense.
     
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  4. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    It's definitely one way. I agree with those who say Brady's had a great coach and a good team around him and has won more SB's than otherwise because of that, but I've said many times I think if I had to choose I'd choose Brady as the best ever (1a = Brady, 1b = Peyton). So I'm certainly in the camp of thinking he's great at what he does, a lot of which is to efficiently manage a game.
     
  5. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    Jesus we have some childish trolls around here....

    How can you suck that bad as a poster and still be allowed to be here?
     
  6. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    Too many times, you KNOW the Pats are going to drive down the field and score, when they have to, Brady has done that too many times for there to be any real discussion on whether or not he's a clutch player, so many times you're surprised when they don't do it.

    Cheating or not cheating, that's clutch, whatever his stats are, there's game tape showing this guy getting it done.
     
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  7. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Even if that's cheating....that's still "clutch"?
     
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  8. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    Until 2007 Brady was the classic game manager. After that he started to play better than that. However, he has still not done ANYTHING that 6-10 other QB's haven't done in this league since then. I mean, come on, the guy holds no major passing records.

    (And let me stop you before you start with the "he has more playoff wins" etc....Those aren't individual accomplishments no matter how much the media tries to make them)
     
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  9. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    He was. However, he was much better at it than Brady.

    For example, when Montana was being picked up and slammed head first into the turf he still played like Montana. When Brady gets tapped, he taps out. lol
     
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  10. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    Well said.

    However, if Marino had had the consistency that Brady or Montana had he too would have 4 (or more) Super Bowl rings. As I've said a few times in this very thread, Brady is hard working and competitive. He does anything to win. (Up to and including cheat) However, if he had been on any other team since 2000 he would be just another mediocre to slightly above average QB. The true greats are thought of as great no matter their team accomplishments. Every time Brady is mentioned in the GOAT debate the first (and IMO only) thing mentioned is 4 Super Bowl wins. And that's not even an individual accomplishment.
     
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  11. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    The Pats have won 4 Super Bowls.

    He's very smart, hard working, and competitive. So is 95% of all NFL players. That's why they are NFL players.

    Nothing has changed around Brady. He's been in the same system his entire career. He's had the same HC his entire career. He's had dominate defenses around him his entire career. He's had all-pro caliber o-linemen his entire career. He's had self-less players around him his entire career. NOTHING has changed for Brady except he's had some elite talent come and go.

    and...he cheats.
     
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  12. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    I. Love. You.
     
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  13. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Clutch - adj: Playing worse in the post season while cheating in multiple ways, because your team won championships playing the ultimate team sport. ANTONYMS: "Clutch" used to discuss anything other then Tom Brady.
     
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  14. Limbo

    Limbo Mad Stillz

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    He was top-10 in Passer rating every year from 2001-on. The lowest they finished in scoring offense was 11th, with some top-5 seasons. If that's the production of a "game manager," sign me up. (He was 22nd, 3rd, 5th, 12th, 4th, 8th in attempts from 01-06, btw. And that 22nd came when he didn't play the whole year. Let's not pretend he was just handing the ball off.) If that's your qb, you have a damn good chance of making the playoffs regularly.

    Sure from 2007-on he was a perennial mvp candidate, but the "game manager" label makes very little sense and is mostly a BS narrative. We'd be anointing RT if he ever had a 6-year run like that.
     
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  15. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Brady has pretty consistently had guys who could turn 5 yard passes into 15 yard gains. Look, I think Brady had done well, even without big name receivers. However, all the cheating allegations have really made me wonder if everything he's accomplished was really because of whatever talent he possesses. I mean, the guy was a sixth round pick for a reason. So, goes from a sixth round pick to GOAT? I guess it could be the greatest Cinderella story of all time...or it could be that he was successful because of things occurring outside of the field of play.
     
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  16. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    You could give Tannehill the early 90's Cowboys OL, Terrell Davis, Duper and Clayton and the 85 Bears Defense and he is not as good as Brady.
     
  17. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    LOL

    This sort of statement is so ridiculous, and does nothing to further any sort of discussion. It's also why people view you as being staunchly anti-Tannehill, despite your protests otherwise.
     
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  18. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    Was nothing more than mocking the same few who LOOOVE Ryan and turn around and dissect one of the best Qbs of our era.

    And Im not "Anti Tannehill" Im Anti dumb excuses that forgives him (with false bs info by the way) for underperforming at this point. If there was any goofballs trolling these threads 45X a day calling Ryan a bottom 3 or 4 QB in football I would laugh at their extreme BS too. Just so happens we have more uninformed extremists on the opposite side over here.
     
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  19. Shane Falco

    Shane Falco Banned

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    This dude has been here 2 months longer than me. Why does he get a pass when I am called a troll??

    We know who is trolling.
     
  20. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Again, you're saying things that are untrue. I certainly don't "love" Tannehill, however, I can't stand the ridiculous arguments used against him. Further, I can't stand that the same criteria used against Tannehill isn't used against other QBs. Finally, I can't stand that people, in the face of accusations by teammates of things like the second mic, continue to act like nothing is going on, and I see stuff like "Brady is great regardless of cheating."
     
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  21. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Well, he was around for a long, long time under the name Fin-Omenal, until he apparently forgot his login info, and stayed a new username.
     
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  22. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    so your basing this whole argument that if you compare ryans stats with the greats in their first four years he should have much more respect right?
     
  23. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I've also seen Brady deal with pressure very well, getting the ball to the right man in a quick amount of time is part of dealing with pressure...do we have his pressure numbers? or are you just thinking about how he doesn't dodge in the open field?
     
  24. dgfred

    dgfred Free Agent pickup

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    Well, comparing their first 4 years to RT is more to show what RT could become with the right parts (Coach/OL) in the next few years... like several of them did.
     
  25. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    You can see Brady is a great QB even if the Patriots found some underhanded ways of gaining advantages. You can't tell me most QB's would be able to lead such a precision offense the way Brady does even if their team had better information about what the defense is likely to do or not. A lot of QB's simply make bad decisions, don't have the accuracy, don't process information quickly enough, etc..

    IMO, you put Brady on a Dolphins team that went 8-8 with Tannehill and you're probably looking at a 10-6 season. I mean who knows for sure, but there's a reason almost everyone in the NFL considers Brady one of the all-time greats. You can say the Patriots were caught cheating and they'll still say that. Why? Because of what you see on the field.
     
  26. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    well, if your under the belief that his play always coincides with cheating then I understand where your coming from..I cant make that assumption.
     
  27. dgfred

    dgfred Free Agent pickup

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    Hey, we have our Brady right now just younger. Short passes, doesn't throw deep often, no running game, OL couldn't keep out DL. We saw it in 2 of the Patriots last 3 games. Now if their defense could just suck alot more the teams would be twins.
     
  28. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    I don't think anyone mistakes Brady's generally good decision-making and pocket presence with Tannehill's sometimes questionable decision-making and relatively bad pocket presence. Still some key differences between the two even if you take into account an OL that can't block the DL well enough.
     
  29. dgfred

    dgfred Free Agent pickup

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    You don't say
     
  30. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    so these called ''elite game managers'' that I believe you mentioned brady, montana, have managed teams to 9 Super Bowl victories....

    what other type qb should we be looking for?

    for me I think I can find the athletic elite playmaker type with a decently accurate arm and win..its why I very high on Wilson, relatively high on Kaepernik, and thought Tyrod Taylor would be a steal and become a starter, and for the manager type, was high on Dalton relative to everyone else..

    My point is I dont understand the game manager label..Alex smith is considered a game manager so lets dissect that, I had him graded that year as a first round qb, thought he was athletic and accurate, after years in the league we see the weakness and we see the strengths, the one weakness I see is arm strength, so is that why you would attach someone in the game manager role, lack of arm strength?...I dont see brady having any arm strength issues so Im not sure how he gets labeled that around here.
     
  31. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    8 SB victories.. just saying because it's the second time you've assumed Brady has 5 :wink2:

    For me game manager just means the QB is biased towards high-percentage plays that are appropriate for the game situation. Whether they can execute those well or not is another story.

    The German National Soccer Team won the WC playing high-percentage plays extremely efficiently. They didn't rely on a highly creative individual playmaker to win. It was always team first. Good decisions, well executed and well coordinated. Doesn't that sound like the Patriots and Brady?

    That's what "game manager" means to me. It's never meant as a diss when I say it because you can be great at it or bad at it.

    The other types of QB you are talking about rely a lot more on the occasional "magic" or creative play and they are biased more towards higher-risk plays. You can certainly win that way too, and RW is a great example of someone who might continue to succeed that way. Only problem I see in the NFL is that mobile QB's tend to either have shorter life spans (as effective QB's) or their effectiveness decreases more relative to pocket passers once the defense figures them out.

    Anyway, if Tannehill ever succeeds he'll be a good enough game manager for us. We'll see if that happens.
     
  32. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    huh? so for 8 years he hasn't been a game manager..just the best qb in the game over that time, but before 8 years ago he was a game manager?..

    hmmm, im not sure where to go from here, so what about him playing very efficient football, playing well in big games, in the 4th quarter, and leading a team his way when he was in his twenties is a game manager is what? replaceable?..not extraordinary?

    trying to tie this into ryan..I see what you all are hanging on to, and that is making sure you keep in context the performance relative to when they had their first four years in the league and only comparing those years...well, were moving into our 5th year..what are your individual expectations?
     
  33. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    see were just so far apart on the player its hard to even debate it..you have him as an average to slightly above if he wasn't a patriot, I find that to be far from the truth..Brady is a very smart, very accurate, great at anticipating, and a great leader..none of those things is he average at, all of those things are the makeup of one of the goat.
     
  34. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    ok, you think he's greatly overrated..I think thats a bad evaluation considering what we've seen over the career, which has been many interchangeable offensive parts.and not a lot of offensive superstars..
     
  35. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    once again, this post seems to have no ability to project the talent of the player on the field for the past 2 decades, the way he plays when you watch.
     
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  36. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    He gets the job done in clutch moments, because even if he's cheating, he has to EXECUTE, it's not a video game, there is no cheat code, he still has to execute on the field in high pressure situations, that is the definition of clutch, and as I said, your more surprised when they don't win in big spots, THAT is the legacy of Brady.

    In all seriousness, you have to question anyones ability to evaluate QBs, when they question whether Brady is a clutch QB or not, I mean, what have you been watching all these years? In all seriousness.
     
  37. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    usually good game managers use their legs to manage the game and convert, ryan has not learnt that yet, so he has a bit to go to become a good game manager...which is an individual trait, not dependent on the surroundings.
     
  38. dgfred

    dgfred Free Agent pickup

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    Who was playing against the Giants? That was a good game-plan... which is a first in a long time for us. RT (and Miller) looked good running.
     
  39. Shane Falco

    Shane Falco Banned

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    To me everything Brady has accomplished has an asterisk beside it.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  40. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I no make real argument. I yes make fake argument. Make yes fun of thread.
     

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