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Vernon - Transition Tag placed

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Galant, Mar 1, 2016.

  1. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    Read this carefully please - Transition tag, NOT Franchise tag.

    [video=twitter;704705704121118720]https://twitter.com/ArmandoSalguero/status/704705704121118720[/video]

    [video=twitter;704706005393772544]https://twitter.com/AbramsonPBP/status/704706005393772544[/video]

    [video=twitter;704706165972852736]https://twitter.com/JamesWalkerNFL/status/704706165972852736[/video]

    [video=twitter;704706292070256640]https://twitter.com/AbramsonPBP/status/704706292070256640[/video]

    [video=twitter;704706972205993985]https://twitter.com/AbramsonPBP/status/704706972205993985[/video]



    Here's the difference between the two tags:

    "If a team uses a FRANCHISE TAG on a player, that player gets a 1-year contract with a salary that is the average of the Top-5 figures for players at his same position (or a 20% raise over his current salary, whichever is greater). If a team uses a Franchise Tag on a player, the team and the player have until July to work out a long-term deal. If no deal is worked out by that time, the player and team are stuck with the one-year deal.

    If a team uses a TRANSITION TAG, the player receives a one-year deal that is the average of the Top 10 salaries of the prior season, or a 20% raise of that player’s previous salary…whichever is greater. The player can negotiate with other teams, but the original team has a first-refusal right to match within seven days any offer sheet given to the player. Match the offer, keep the player. Don’t match the offer, lose the player and receive no compensation (such as draft picks)."

    5PointsBlue
     
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  2. LiferYank

    LiferYank New Member

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    And the plot thickens.
     
  3. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    Below are the tag costs:

    Position____Franchise Tag (Transition Tag)
    Defensive end: $15,701,000 ($12,734,000)

    Quarterback: $19,953,000 ($17,696,000)
    Defensive end: $15,701,000 ($12,734,000)
    Wide receiver: $14,599,000 ($12,268,000)
    Linebacker: $14,129,000 ($11,925,000)
    Cornerback: $13,952,000 (11,913,000)
    Offensive L: $13,706,000 ($11,902,000)
    Defensive T: $13,615,000 ($10,875,000)
    Running back: $11,789,000 ($9,647,000)
    Safety: $10,806,000 ($9,116,000)
    Tight end: $9,118,000 ($7,713,000)
    Punter/Kicker: $4,572,000 ($4,123,000)

    Washington Post
     
  4. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    [video=twitter;704708486878236672]https://twitter.com/AdamHBeasley/status/704708486878236672[/video]

    [video=twitter;704710519177945088]https://twitter.com/AbramsonPBP/status/704710519177945088[/video]

    [video=twitter;704711098583392256]https://twitter.com/AdamHBeasley/status/704711098583392256[/video]

    [video=twitter;704710428899811328]https://twitter.com/790Friedo/status/704710428899811328[/video]
     
  5. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    [video=twitter;704712098111229956]https://twitter.com/AdamHBeasley/status/704712098111229956[/video]

    [video=twitter;704712202419359744]https://twitter.com/AdamHBeasley/status/704712202419359744[/video]

    [video=twitter;704712371303010304]https://twitter.com/JamesWalkerNFL/status/704712371303010304[/video]

    [video=twitter;704712719895756804]https://twitter.com/AdamHBeasley/status/704712719895756804[/video]

    [video=twitter;704713206090956800]https://twitter.com/ArmandoSalguero/status/704713206090956800[/video]
     
  6. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    [video=twitter;704714978142654464]https://twitter.com/NFLFilmStudy/status/704714978142654464[/video]

    [video=twitter;704716810118045696]https://twitter.com/ArmandoSalguero/status/704716810118045696[/video]
     
  7. bran

    bran Senior Member

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    for that cost i would have let him walk.
     
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  8. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

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    This to me is a head scratcher. So we are willing to pay him $12.7 but not $15.7 with at least the chance of getting compensation via a trade. We learned last season that teams can structure contracts that we simply cannot match. I think if it really came down to $3 million, we should just pay it. If the extra $3 mil truly makes a difference, we should offer him the most we can. If he takes it, we will be happy. If he rejects it, we should wish him well, and let him walk.
     
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  9. jinx

    jinx Well-Known Member

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    [video=twitter;704709039683293184]https://twitter.com/SI_DougFarrar/status/704709039683293184[/video]
     
  10. bran

    bran Senior Member

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    bills just released mario williams, i think he counted almost 13 mil on the cap for buffalo.
     
  11. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Why are we making the assumption that someone would pay $15.7 million for him AND a draft pick that's more meaningful than $3 million?
     
  12. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Someone can sign him long term and not take that $15m hit right?
     
  13. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    I think this is smart. It would have been a head scratcher to me if it was the franchise tag, but transition tag allows other teams to bid for OV. Furthermore, it places a high floor on what other teams will offer OV.. probably well in excess of the $12.7 mil (per year) for the transition tag.

    So either teams bid real high on OV and we say bye, or we have greater negotiating leverage if they don't for a long term contract (because teams won't bid below that floor). Like the move!
     
  14. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    People are asking why we wouldn't franchise him at $15.7 million and then trade him.

    I'm saying why are we so sure another team would trade us a pick high enough to offset that $3 million?
     
  15. Rex Deus

    Rex Deus Guest

    It just feels like we're dicking around. Either we want him or we don't.

    Don't imagine OV will be too impressed, and any interested team can easily put together an offer which is difficult for us to match.
     
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  16. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    That doesn't make sense.

    We didn't use this tag because we're not sure. We used this tag because we're sure we don't want to overpay him.
     
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  17. Pandarilla

    Pandarilla Purist Emeritus

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    Hopefully we keep him, but that's what I said last year with Clay.
     
  18. thetylernator

    thetylernator You're as cold as ice, Officer Friendly.

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    [​IMG]
     
  19. finfansince72

    finfansince72 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I'm going to go out on a limb and say that we lose OV.
     
  20. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Id be shocked if he's here next year. Especially given the abundance of cap space with the rollovers for teams that could use a pass rusher.

    I'm sure they've got a plan in place to replace him if he leaves. Regardless of how good that plan may be, I'm pretty sick of watching us grow some players then letting them leave so we can go and acquire other teams players instead of retaining our own.

    Hope it doesn't come back to bite us, but if it does, we deserve it.
     
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  21. Phinfanjt

    Phinfanjt New Member

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    I know Miami would not receive compensation if Vernon were to leave via the transition tag but would they still be eligible to receive a compensatory pick next year if they do indeed lose him?
     
  22. CitizenSnips

    CitizenSnips hmm.

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    This is basically just us setting our highest bid and seeing if someone else will go higher. I'm fine with it cause I'm not sure I even want us to do the $12 mill
     
  23. Rex Deus

    Rex Deus Guest

    If OV is worth $12m per year or more, we'll have under-offered and will likely lose the player.

    If he is worth less than $12m per year, we'll have overpaid.

    So, what exactly is the point of using the Transition Tag on him?
     
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  24. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I suspect that Miami figures they are building a future without Olivier Vernon. If you want to tie yourself to an edge rusher with a big contract, you want premier production and while OV can sometimes deliver that, it's no guarantee.

    My guess is that the Transition Tag is simply a small step up from letting him walk. This way, there's at least a chance you may have him on the roster next year.

    Honestly though, I think this is a big sign the team didn't see eye to eye with OV and that they won't be matching any offer he gets.
     
  25. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Depends on what/who we bring in during free agency
     
  26. EverFin

    EverFin Active Member

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    Maybe the FO thinks the same of OV like a lot of us fans do: We would like to keep him but we are not sure, if he is worth more than 12.7m or even that much. So do we fans deserve this FO who doesn't decide and just let things happen?
     
  27. Rex Deus

    Rex Deus Guest

    I suspect you're right, which is kinda my point.

    We're the only team to use the Transition Tag this year; and it didn't exactly work well for us last year with Clay.
     
  28. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    Comp picks are based on their salary with the new team, and production, but salary is the biggest factor, so perhaps they are hoping to drive his price up a little so as to have a better chance at getting a better comp pick, but as another poster mentioned, it depends on who we sign in FA, so if we sign Hayes lets say, at 6 mil per, we would be in line to get a decent comp pick.
     
  29. Brasfin

    Brasfin Well-Known Member

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    Why didn't it work well for us? The whole point of using the transition tag is not overpaying for players who you don't think deserve franchise tag money. If another team offers something and you don't agree with it, so be it. Clay did not produce last season as expected and we didn't overspend, I don't see how we lost on that one.
     
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  30. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The problem, is that teams, especially this year given the massive salary cap space some teams have can structure that contract in a way that we just can't afford regardless of whether we wanted to keep him or not. Similar to what Buffalo did with Clay last year, lots of money front loaded into the deal so we can't match it based on our own cap position. It basically means, if someone really wanted him, they could front load it, still not really overpay for OV's services, and price us out of it by our own cap position. Then you've lost a player, who's likely still ascending, at only 25 years old, who you drafted, developed, and you got absolutely ZERO in the way of compensation for him.

    So, it's a gamble, it's a risk. A big one at that. I guess though, it tells us that Tannenbaum and company would yet again, prefer to go out and sign a FA, rather than retain our own talent. You wouldn't risk it, if you didn't care you might loose him.

    Sure, on the flipside, it's bought us more time to negotiate with him, match any offer etc. The reality though, still is that we just may not be able to keep him. I firmly believe someone with massive cap cash to spend, is going to overpay for him. We all know we can't do that, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. It just sucks letting a talented guy go, and getting nothing in return.
     
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  31. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Again, I don't think OV plays at a level some people think he eventually will. Any large contract would have been based on a lot of projection and promise on OV's end. I think Miami probably said, 'this is what you are, and so we're willing to pay you X amount.' I suspect OV was looking for a contract based more around what he believes he can/will be over the next 4-5 years. Someone will probably take him up on that, but in the end, I suspect that Miami liked him a lot, but didn't love him to the point that they were willing to hand over a big contract based on any sort of projected growth.

    Thus you get what we saw here. I think most agree that OV is a notch below being a franchise player. I don't think he's the type of guy who's going to go elsewhere and become a perennial Pro-Bowler. I think he's a strong player. I don't think he's necessarily someone you feel all that safe building around. I think Miami was faced with the decisionof do we treat OV like a stud and pray he becomes one or do we look elsewhere?

    On that note, the DE position is consistently getting stronger every year. It's one of the most stocked positions in every draft. We see multiple rushers go in the top-10 every year. Considering how many freakish athletes are continually being groomed in college (as well as the fact that OV himself was a mid-round pick) I think the conservative route of not overpaying OV has merit.
     
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  32. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    But what is the relevance of the transition tag? If someone offers more he walks- what is the difference between using a transition tag and just making an offer? So now Vernon has an offer and he can shop himself around using that $12.7 mil as leverage? What does the team get out of it? Are there any comp picks involved? I don't recall any compensation for Clay. Essentially, I don't understand the whole point of the transition tag.
     
  33. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    If we tagged him at $12.7m and he's worth $12m how is that an under offer?

    If he's worth more than $12m, then why would we offer our max up front? What deal process works like that?
     
  34. Brasfin

    Brasfin Well-Known Member

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    To my understanding, the advantage is that we have final say in the counter offer. If a team offers him more than the transition tag and we beat it, he is forced to stay... the team cannot answer back with yet another offer.

     
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  35. 2socks

    2socks Rebuilding Since 1973

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    no there is no compensation. Miami has seven days to match his offer. If they do he has to sign with Miami. If he declines they get zero. Wow it looks like we might dump most of our cap on OV and Wake.
     
  36. 2socks

    2socks Rebuilding Since 1973

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    They dont have to offer more just match
     
  37. 2socks

    2socks Rebuilding Since 1973

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    OV can not negotiate with other teams.

    He can only accept offer sheets. This type of tag has caused problems in the past because it prevents the player from negotiating with other teams, thereby lowering the amount he most likely would have gotten had he been able to negotiate. Players hate it when you **** with their money.

    If he gets pissed enough he may hold out and ev en refuse to sign here

    OV would then be a unrestricted free agent in 2017 and Miami would get zero
     
  38. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    I don't think he's worth the $12.7 he's been offered, much less the $15 mil or so the franchise tag would have given him. 7 sacks and 50 tackles a year from an adequate run defender doesn't stoke me. I'd rather trade down in the 1st rd, draft Ragland, then get Nkemdiche and Garnett in the 2nd rd (ambitious, I know), put Nkemdiche at end and DT on passing downs and resign Shelby if the price is right. If Noah Spence falls after the poor combine showing, certainly consider him in the 2nd. I like DE Ronald Blair from Appalachian St. later in the draft, the kid that CK Parrot Head mentioned looks pretty good, too, Victor Ochi from Stony Brook. Pass rusher, quick off the snap. Small for a 4-3 DE though.

    It's not that I dislike Vernon, I just can't figure out, having watched the games, how this guy is worth $12-15 mil a year. Good against so-so Tackles, struggles against the better ones, this is not the cornerstone of a defense imo. A healthy Wake and a much bigger Nkemdiche would work for me at DE. Vernon is a good 4/3 DE, but nothing special imo. Overrated at a price tag of $12-15 mil/year.

    So now we've offered Vernon way too much money at $12.7 mil and we have 7 days to match a higher and even more ludicrous offer. Yay. Screw that, I'd rather get Chris Long on the cheap.
     
  39. 2socks

    2socks Rebuilding Since 1973

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    Miami can withdraw the tag at anytime. If they do they cant use it again this year. Lets say OV doesn't get an offer sheet for more then the 12.7. Miami could theoretically withdraw the tag and then open negotiations with him for less money. That is of course if OV isnt pissed enough to walk completely. The problems they are having with Wake is not going to help and Wake and OV will use it to their advantage if push comes to shove. If OV signs under the Transition tag the Dolphins can not use it again until his entire contract expires. So for example if he signs a 5 year deal after they use the tag Miami would not be able to use the tag again for 5 years

    Edit : with exactly 1 week until the start of free agency Miami is 3.5 over the cap. I would expect a lot to happen very soon.
     
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  40. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    I just did another one of those draft simulator things- went DeForest Buckner and Nkemdiche in the 1st 2 rounds. Let Vernon walk, let Shelby walk if he wants too much money, starting line Buckner/Phillips/Suh/Nkemdiche, Wake works in while he's getting healthy as a pass rush specialist. I'd rather keep Shelby and have Fede there, but Vernon and Earl Mitchell go bye bye with those big salaries. I just can't fathom $20 mil a year for Vernon and Mitchell combined. Phillips better get his a** in gear.

    Kamalei Correa replaces Misi at SOLB, Terrance Smith at OLB (Barry Jackson said something about Jelani Jenkins being maybe on the way out, surprised me), Rashard Robinson at CB and Christian Westerman at Guard.

    The point is, we have so many needs on this team it's ridiculous. Not drafting Myles Jack irks me because the position is so weak, no joy in letting Vernon walk. But seriously, match Vernon at around $15 mil a year and retain Mitchell at $5 mil? Can't we think of better ways to spend $20 mil? Are Jhari Evans and Chris Long healthy? I see no problem with stop gap players at this point with so many needs to fill.

    Problems aplenty- if we pass on Garnett in the 2nd rd, buena suerte getting him in the 3rd. I dont see much that I like at OG except for him, Westerman and to a lesser extent Jack Allen and Graham Glasgow. I'd rather save the $20 mil- make that $30 mil with Grimes hitting the highway, load up on need positions in FA and tap that DL talent in the draft. Noah Spence in rd 2 works for me, better pass rusher than Vernon at a fraction of the price.

    Buckner in the position drills at :20

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wq4Otv9iF5I

    6-7 290 lbs
     

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