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To all the Dion Jordan supporters

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by tirty8, May 31, 2016.

  1. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

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    You seem to be holding Jordan to an unrealistic standard and one higher than for any other player. Sure, the Pats will try to adapt. And they will win some. Just as they do against every single defensive player they have ever faced. Nobody is going to shut down Gronk on every single play. If you had your pick of every single defender in NFL history to cover Gronk one-on-one every play, who would you choose? I think no matter who you choose, Gronk and the Pats will try to adapt to the style and he'll occasionally beat that guy either with size, or speed, or something. That's why Gronk is Gronk. So who is this magic bullet defender with no potential weaknesses and who never ever blows assignments?

    Jordan has some unique attributes and abilities. No, he won't win every battle, but he can win some that few other players can. He's a tool/weapon that if in shape and motivated can be used effectively in some situations. I guess you don't see it that way. You seem to think he is of no value because he might be beaten by a HOF coach, HOF QB and HOF TE. I can agree to disagree.
     
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  2. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

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    I think the major issue is that most of us have...
     
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  3. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

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    Again, its not just running in a straight line.On the play discussed in the link below (and illustrated with photos), CJ lines up at the 11 just to the right of the right hash. Jordan effectively jams him at the line and then CJ breaks left across the field to the other side fo the left hash before heading upfield toward the endzone. It's not shown here but CJ ends up well into the endzone and Jordan was with him every step of the way.

    http://www.detroitlions.com/news/fi...er/d6d389a2-eca4-4d00-9b05-ffb39dc9e16c#start shows

    I've seen Jordan fare pretty well against small, quick WRs in man coverage. How he'd do against Edelman may depend on how much time Brady has to throw. Given enough time I'm sure Edelman would get open, as he (or any other good WR) would against every single CB in NFL history. But how do you think Edelman would do being jammed at the line by a 6-6, 240lb guy who is capable of running step for step (and not just straight line) with CJ? How quickly would he get off that jam and get open? Would it happen before Suh, Wake or Mario Williams get to him? Maybe; maybe not.
     
  4. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

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    The notion that Dion Jordan will be taking the NFL by storm is an inherently flawed assertion. Not only are we speculating on something we have never seen, we are speculating on something nowhere near anything we have ever seen. For the sake of reasonable discussion, let's just say Dion Jordan returns playing somewhere more or less at the same level when he left. I for one think that it is highly unlikely that he will return playing better than when he left a year ago. I just don't think a year off could possibly improve a player's skills. I expect at least some regression. But if you want to speculate that he has his head on straight, and he somehow gets marginally better, I can follow you for argument's sake.

    The thing is, most of the ingredients in this cake have already been baked in. We all know what we gave up to get him. We all know what his production has been at in the pros. We all know what he did in college. We all know about his suspensions, and that he is one strike away from possibly being done forever. We all know that you cannot fully trust him.

    The real flawed premise is that this guy is truly getting to start over. All of these things have happened.

    So the question still remains, whose roster spot would you give to keep Dion Jordan.
     
  5. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

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    Even better, let's assume Jordan comes back and plays reasonably well. Would you honestly want to give this guy a second contract flush with guaranteed money?
     
  6. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    This is probably the best argument in his favor. But I am highly skeptical that this guy spent 2 years out of football, then started working out 2 months before applying for reinstation, and will somehow come back better than ever.
     
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  7. VManis

    VManis Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That's entirely possible but how about we let him step on the practice field before we decide anything.
     
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  8. VManis

    VManis Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You are all over the board on this discussion. In your original post you wanted to cut him as soon as he was reinstated and now you are worried about a second contract?
     
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  9. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

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    I would cut him right away, and that is one of the reasons - his upside is capped. Could he be a dominant player for the next 7 seasons? Certainly not, because I would never, ever give him a long term deal with lots of guaranteed money. Best case scenario would be that you keep him for the next two seasons and pick up his option for another year, but after that, no more.

    That is the problem with this guy. In the short term, he will most likely struggle to get back to football shape, and in the long term, he will be gone. I am not bending over backwards for some guy who may have 2.5 decent years with the team.
     
  10. shamegame13

    shamegame13 Madison & Surtain

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    For goodness sakes, its just Dion Jordan, it seems a few of you have forgotten about how big of a headache this guy has been.
     
  11. VManis

    VManis Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Exactly how are the Dolphins bending over backwards for DJ? He is under contract, he comes to training camp and tries to earn a roster spot just like every other player in the NFL.
     
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  12. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    These people the Patriots beat, have mostly played their whole lives as defensive backs. They have spent their whole careers adjusting. If Gronk was just a physical beast, and the offensive scheme was a simple one, maaaaayyybbeee. But you have a physical beast with a scheme that is outright complex.

    Peyton Manning's offenses were simple. The Patriots offense isn't.
     
  13. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

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    But you are aren't answering the question and are making my point. Who do you think are the guys that will match up with Gronk all game and never be beaten? Presumably not the guys who "have mostly played their whole lives as defensive backs," but are still the "people the Patriots beat." Playing the conventional way with much smaller DBs hasn't worked out that well. The Pats and Gronk have seen it over and over and over again and they beat it over and over and over. But he's not so used to being pressed and shadowed by a guy his size. The few times we saw it he and the Pats didn't handle it that well and didn't beat it. Sure, I guess we can just assume that they will so there is no point in doing it, but that doesn't help because, as you say, they are beating everyone else too.
     
  14. shamegame13

    shamegame13 Madison & Surtain

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    You gotta be kidding me if you think Dion Jordan is gonna shut down Gronk all game because of a few samples from 2 years ago? That has "homer" written all over it
     
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  15. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    2-4 snaps and all of a sudden he's gonna do what no other DB has been able to do. This is a guy who by all accounts is dumb as a bag of rocks. Gonna contain the best TE, being thrown the ball by one of the best QBs ever, coached by the best tactician ever.

    It's as if we have the prototype nobody else has figured out yet. You contain Gronk by hitting Brady in the face.
     
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  16. Itsdahumidity

    Itsdahumidity X gonna take it from ya

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    He won't answer b/c he has no answer. Not part of the narrative they're trying to make.
     
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  17. Itsdahumidity

    Itsdahumidity X gonna take it from ya

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    you just posted the general job descriptions of every nfl defender.
     
  18. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

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    Of course I'm not saying that. You obviously haven't been keeping up. I'm saying NOBODY is going to shut down Gronk all game. Not Revis or Sherman or Norman or Prime Deion. So there's no reason to get fixated on the idea that the Pats may eventually adapt to the Dion coverage style on Gronk and it is therefore not worth doing. Dion did a nice job in the few opportunities he got to do it. It's something to build on. Neither the Dolphins nor anyone else has a silver bullet to stop Gronk, but Dion matches up physically about as well as anyone in the NFL. I know Stringer insists that there are numerous other guys like that, but I haven't seen it or heard of it. Few guys with his size have actual coverage skills. Maybe Jamie Collins, but he only has to match up with Gronk in practice and I've seen him get beaten numerous times by much lesser TEs. That's no knock on him, as it happens to everyone.
     
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  19. Itsdahumidity

    Itsdahumidity X gonna take it from ya

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    good lord man. Will the team not have playbooks this season? Coaches/Teachers? smh. You're talking about Floods right?

    What does a defender do when there are two receivers in his zone?

    This is where the concept of FLOOD
    comes into play. Rather than take advantage of the holes naturally formed in Zones, it looks to create them. When you Flood a zone coverage you send more receivers into it than there are defenders to cover. A typical Flood play involves 3 receivers, one High, one Medium, one Low, on the sidelines being covered in zone by two defenders. This typically results in the under zone defender having to choose which of the Medium/Low receivers to cover, and the QB throwing the ball to the other option. The choice a defender makes is either predetermined by coaching or makes a choice based on instinct. In the case of a Soft Zone, the defender is playing further back and would cover the Medium receiver and choose to concede the pass to the low receiver and then collapse and tackle for minimal gain.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/nfl/comments/2jifwe/novice_guide_week_7_what_is_zone_coverage/

    And back to man. Just b/c you know you're suppose to follow this guy like white on rice, doesn't mean you're physically capable of doing so. Thus my point of zone being easier to play.
     
  20. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

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    I know you are being facetious, but you are hitting on a few points that are important and contrary to your argument. We know that no DB has been able to do it. So maybe its better not to just send another DB to the slaughterhouse. Maybe we should present Gronk with something he doesn't face often -- a guy whose as big, fast and agile as he is. I don't personally know how smart Dion is or isn't, but pressing him at the LOS and chasing him around the field doesn't require a high degree of intelligence. The general belief is that a press coverage guy is one of the positions that requires the least intelligence of any position on the field.

    Hitting Brady in the face is a good strategy. The problem often is that Brady is able to get rid of the ball to Gronk because he gets a free release because he is being covered by a guy 7 inches shorter and 65 lbs lighter. But if you press him with a guy of similar size and slow his route, you give less time for him to get open and more time to hit Brady in the face. Aggressive, physical press coverage and a good aggressive pass rush go together like peanut butter and jelly.
     
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  21. Itsdahumidity

    Itsdahumidity X gonna take it from ya

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    but the words were on the internet so it must be true.
     
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  22. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Coincidentally that doesn't include Dion Jordan.
     
  23. Pandarilla

    Pandarilla Purist Emeritus

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    You win this round, Stringer...You win this round.
     
  24. Itsdahumidity

    Itsdahumidity X gonna take it from ya

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    Win? Please. Only in his mind & apparently yours.
     
  25. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    This was my stance on Jordan on Aug 1st 2013, and I haven't seen anything yet that contradicts it, so this is why I'm so firm on my stance that he's just not a very good football player.

    EDIT; some non relevant cheesy writing has been edited :yes:

     
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  26. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

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    I'm pretty sure nobody is arguing at this point that DJ was a good pick at No. 3 overall. Not that it would matter anyway because what's done is done. But it sounds like there is a good chance he'll get reinstated and will be on the roster and, if that is the case, the only relevant question at this point (in my mind) is where/how should we play him (in camp/preseason) to see if he's worth a roster spot.
     
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  27. Agua

    Agua Reality: Try It!

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    After listening to the player interviews on the official site, one thing that keeps coming up, and no surprise, is that they're learning a new system at these OTAs and that's a challenge in itself.

    Jordan is missing ALL of this - really falling behind. I'm really doubting he'll even make the 53.
     
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  28. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    no doubt that is the concern, why didn't he get started earlier to make these otas..lil shady
     
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  29. Pandarilla

    Pandarilla Purist Emeritus

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    Apparently, you can't detect humor when it is knocked out of the park...
     
  30. SICK

    SICK Lounge Moderator

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    Bingo


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  31. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't call myself a supporter, per se. I think I'm in the wait and see camp. For all we know, he could end up as our Rolando McClain.
     
  32. Pandarilla

    Pandarilla Purist Emeritus

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    Well, he's amazing on kickoff coverage, there used to be a gif against the Steelers where he locks up on his blocker and simply slams his guy into the runner for the tackle. It was straight out of waterboy.

    His coverage skills surpass any linebacker we have. He saved the game by defending against the old man TE in San Diego.

    He can rush the passer. His percentage of effective rushes were comparable if not better than the rest if my memory serves me. And yes, he has had an affect on the game outcome by affecting throws.

    He is light in the pants and we won't give him a couple years to develop like we did with Jason Taylor. Put him at lb. He's good in space. What's the big deal? Alonso should have a good rapport with him.

    He doesn't have to start right away, and he'd be a solid rotational backup at the least while he gets into football shape.

    Just let it play out, but give him a legitimate chance.

    He might be traded, but that may benefit both sides. We don't know, we won't know until he is at least reinstated.

    He should be viewed as a bonus. For the life of me I don't understand the hate projected on his comeback attempt.
     
  33. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

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    Bingo.

    Dallas Thomas.

    I'd sooner grant a folding chair a roster spot than Dallas Thomas.
     
  34. Pandarilla

    Pandarilla Purist Emeritus

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    I'd hold out for a more versatile folding chair, one that could play special teams and recline as well...
     
  35. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    Personally I hope he comes in and dominates. I hated the trade up and pick. I would rather him go ahead and be a stud then the biggest draft bust in team history.
     
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  36. Agua

    Agua Reality: Try It!

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    Its because of the huge loss he has been for the franchise. This isn't even like Yatil Green being injured all the time. This is a guy failing drug tests, and aside from his assertion that he is not doing any banned substance now, it doesn't appear that he's very damned serious contributing anything since he could have applied February 28, and would then be able to participate in learning a new system - which even the players who have actually played in the NFL for a while admit is challenging.

    So, he's timed his application to ensure he's reinstated roughly a little before training camp. Thereby coming in cold and trying to learn on the fly.

    That seems entirely consistent with his prior multiple failed substance tests - he's just really not that serious about playing football.

    People doubt his sincerity - that's what all the "hate" is about.

    I don't see how he can make the team if he's evaluated on the same basis as every other player.
     
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  37. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

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  38. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

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    No, maybe cuz he doesn't care about football

    http://nfltraderumors.co/dolphins-de-dion-jordan-issues-miami-expected-cut/
     
  39. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

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    Dion Jordan is gonna shut down Gronk...

    Nope

    http://nfltraderumors.co/dolphins-de-dion-jordan-issues-miami-expected-cut/
     
  40. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

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    Has an entire year... Given a chance... DOES NOT CARE ABOUT FOOTBALL! Come on!

    http://nfltraderumors.co/dolphins-de-dion-jordan-issues-miami-expected-cut/
     

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