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****The Official 2015-16 NBA Thread****

Discussion in 'Other Sports Forum' started by TiP54, Jul 1, 2015.

  1. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    There's no way you can stop a shoe company from hiring a player spokesperson just b/c he's had dealings with the companies of a team owner. If that were the standard every NBA/team sponsor would be blocked. So we can speculate that it was a circumvent but short of a smoking gun email or the like there would be no proof.
     
  2. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    IMO the bigger issue is that the team has two stars who are horrifically poor overall defenders and specifically horrifically poor P/R defenders against a team that excels at the P/R. You can't have 2/5 of your starters being such huge defensive liabilities against great offensive teams. It's just a poorly put together team that gets exposed in certain match-ups. And I don't think Curry is dominating when they're actually using that strategy. It's just that during the course of the game they can't stick with that tactic while watching the lay-up drill so they start to lean and sag back. That's when Curry gets the space to hurt them.
     
  3. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    It isn't about comparing the two. Wade more money on his shoe deal being part of the Big 3 than he would have had the Big 3 not have been. That is one of the big reasons why Wade and LeBron were willing to take less salary.
     
  4. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    I'm just not sure that's a given. Wade was a huge star in China before the big three existed and the Arison connection was in place regardless. It's very possible that he would have got that Li-ning contract anyways.
     
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  5. finfansince72

    finfansince72 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    When a player is signing cheap one year deals with a team and getting huge shoe deals that no ome else is getting its not really that hard to figure out.
     
  6. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    But money isn't the only factor. (And it's even less of a factor somebody already has more money then they'll ever spend.) Most studies find that the number 1 factor for happiness at work is liking your co-workers and the organization. Most of us have to still highly consider the financial side b/c we need to eat, but Wade doesn't. By all accounts, Wade loves Miami and from the reports we hear from FAs every year are that many players list Miami as one of the best organizations to play for. Further Wade has specifically talked about the value of spending your whole career with one organization. If was already ridiculously rich, working for an organization I loved, had firmly established my family and roots in a city and hoped that I could spend my whole career with one organization, then it is very unlikely that I would leave for a few million more per year (he still signed a $20 million dollar 1 year deal!). I wouldn't need some under the table side deal to make me stay. Not to mention that Wade is so beloved in the community that he assuredly turns down tons local sponsorship opportunities that could easily make up for any lost revenue. Reality is that he hasn't signed "cheap" one year deals. He's given up a few million year to stay in a place he knows he loves and is loved and to keep or bring in favorite co-workers. In his situation I would do the same.
     
  7. Section126

    Section126 We are better than you. Luxury Box

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    They have no cap space coming any time soon. They are going to be a repeater tax team this offseason.
     
  8. sports24/7

    sports24/7 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That IS how they improve, but I think it means they aren't close. They can continue to keep making the Finals (unless the Heat have something to say about it or KD goes to a team like Boston), but even if GS suffers an injury I'm not sure they can beat SA or OKC. I think if they don't make a miraculous turnaround, they have to break the team up. And the more I think about it, the tougher that might be to do and still get better. Love is getting exposed for what he is right now. He does not look like an all-star and yet he's on a Max deal. He'll be 28 next season and has injury history. It might be a tough sell to get a team to give much back for him. Kyrie will be easier to move, but I'm not sure you're going to get someone that is much better for him.

    As for having cap space, Cleveland is currently projected to have the 2nd lowest maximum cap space available (less than 500k ahead of last place LA Clippers), and they still need to sign LeBron.
     
  9. Vertical Limit

    Vertical Limit Senior Member

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    Heres how Cleveland can win next year..

    Curry and Klay out for season

    kevin durant leaves for LA

    Leonard, tony parker and lamarcus aldridge outfor season


    If all that happens to those six players, cleveland wins.. Other than that, theyre treadmilling in the NBA Finals which isnt a bad thing, better treadmilling there than treadmilling at sub 500 or worse, Philadelphia. But pretty sure gilbert is paying repeater tax for more than just showing up to the dance. He wants to win the dance contest.
     
  10. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    I agree that Cleveland would have to make trades to improve. They're in a tough situation b/c they'll never be a draw for FAs. They'll have to use trades and good drafting to ever get a championship. That's why I thought Lebron made a poor basketball decision by leaving Miami. At best, I saw a short term chance at a championship if he/they built the team right (they didn't), but almost no chance of future championships as Lebron diminished unless he left again.
     
  11. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    I'd add Bosh and Whiteside not returning to Miami.
     
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  12. finfansince72

    finfansince72 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I'm sure one of the biggest shoe deals in the history of mankind is not an influencing factor......in your strictly non-homer objective opinion, of course.
     
  13. PhiNomina

    PhiNomina White-Collar Redneck

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    I know you all will disagree bc #TeamPetty and all that - but if the Cavs were playing OKC I think they win that series and we're not even talking about it. Kyrie and Love have major holes in their games and GS is a particularly bad matchup. They should just run this same roster out there and hope they run into a different team next year. GS almost lost this year. They might lose a lot of depth this offseason. Injuries happen. Just seems like trying to retool the roster to specifically beat and almost perfect team is dumb.

    The NBA moves fast. Roy Hibbert was a max player just a few years ago. Maybe the same thing happens as teams figure out the lineup of death. The last time the Cavs tried to react specifically to one opponent they got Shaq to combat Dwight Howard and then the Celtics bounced them.
     
  14. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    Because of their bad P n' R defenders, they've been doubling on the switch against Curry/Klay. If it wasn't for how absolutely terrible they are at defending it, they would probably just get destroyed by those two guys and it would be less of a team effort. Either way, they're screwed.
     
  15. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    I don't think anyone thought they were going to lose to OKC. In fact, I openly pulled against OKC because I felt they would lose due to the greatness of LeBron.
     
  16. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    1 yr, $20 million is a cheap deal?
     
  17. Section126

    Section126 We are better than you. Luxury Box

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    Justise Winslow has been chosen for the short squad of 25 to train with Team USA.

    So he gets to shut down Paul George and Jimmy Butler...again.
     
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  18. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    You keep accusing me of having a homer opinion yet everything I've said has been pretty freaking accurate. I can and do consider and separate my biases and my track record supports it.

    Reality is that Miami is a strong draw for Wade and he's likely to have stayed on the contract he signed regardless of the shoe deal. A factor which wouldn't have changed the outcome is not much of an influencing factor.
     
  19. sports24/7

    sports24/7 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't think saying that OKC almost beat GS this year helps your argument. GS is an all-time great team and they almost got beat by a very good OKC team. I really don't think Cleveland would have beaten them either. They may have had a shot against an aging SA team, but I think that would be a good series. And regardless of my allegiance, that isn't a homer pick, that's my honest opinion. I think the Cavs are a flawed team, especially on defense.
     
  20. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    I think OKC would have also beaten the Cavs. If I were a Cavs' fan I wouldn't have been looking forward to watching Irving on Westbrook.
     
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  21. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Sneaker companies specifically use how many playoff games they project someone to play when determining his value. Guys who consistently make the NBA Finals are going to get a lot more money because they simply will be on TV more often. You can't do things like run commercials for a player during the Finals that isn't even playing, or release a new edition of a sneaker. Wade making 3 consecutive NBA Finals and televised to those audiences is worth a lot more to Li Ning than Wade making the second round or Conference Finals. There definitely is a monetary advantage there.
     
  22. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    I think they would have gotten away with Irving guarding Roberson. OKC would have been a good matchup for CLE because they would have been able to hide Love on Ibaka.
     
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  23. PhiNomina

    PhiNomina White-Collar Redneck

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    Yeah OKC lets the Cavs play to their strengths of having big men that can shoot on the floor. Ibaka and Adams aren't going to hurt Love/Frye and they'll be sucked out to the perimeter on defense. Russ would've gotten his, but I don't think it would've been enough to swing the series.

    Like - Russ isn't good at defense at all, either. So if you want to talk Kyrie on Russ, you also have to talk Russ on Kyrie.
     
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  24. 407PhinFan

    407PhinFan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Ibaka is a great perimeter defender, who shot 44% from 3pt in this year's playoffs. Frye and Love are both awful on D. Ibaka would have been raining shots in on Love all game. Adams averaged 10/9.5 these playoffs. I don't know that I agree that their size wouldn't have been a problem for Cleveland. I think OKC would have had an advantage on the boards, and they have the personnel to slow down a game and grind it out at the pace they like. Adams is not a good perimeter defender, but I think when you had Frye/Love trying to defend him in the paint, they would be taken to school.

    Westbrook is a better offensive player than Irving, and a much better overall player. OKC also has a big who can provide help on D in the paint, and they could also place Roberson on Irving and have Westbrook guarding JR.

    I think it would have been a somewhat close series, but I think OKC would have taken it in 6.
     
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  25. Section126

    Section126 We are better than you. Luxury Box

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    I have no idea on a OKC-Cavs series, although I would have felt much better for the Cavs winning that series.
     
  26. PhiNomina

    PhiNomina White-Collar Redneck

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    Ibaka avg 0.8 made 3s per game in the regular season. In the playoffs when asked to shoot more (4.6 per game) his % dropped to 34%. He's not really a 3P shooter.

    And the whole point of Frye and Love being awful on D is that Ibaka and Adams aren't going to post them up or take them off the dribble. Frye and Love don't work vs GS because if they get ISO'd on Curry he can rain threes if they back off at all. With Russ they can drop back a bit and you can have other guys come help because OKC doesn't have very much shooting, unlike GS.

    And OKC is a great rebounding team - but so are the Cavs - and again, if Love and Frye are sucking guys out to the perimeter suddenly they aren't around the rim to rebound anything.

    I think the Cavs would've won that series. GS is just a particularly bad matchup for the Cavs because if Curry gets you in space he shoots over you. It's a fairly unique trait - most guys are still trying to get to the rim. It's why OKC's length and athleticism helped them so much vs GS.

    Seems like OKC is a bad matchup for Golden State who is a bad matchup for Cleveland who is a bad matchup for OKC.
     
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  27. PhiNomina

    PhiNomina White-Collar Redneck

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    So who do the Cavs get for Kevin Love this offseason?

    Pipe dreams:
    Blake Griffin
    Jimmy Butler
    Derrick Favors

    Realistic:
    Jae Crowder +
    Carmelo Anthony
    Paul Millsap
     
  28. 407PhinFan

    407PhinFan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Per BBall ref, Ibaka shot 69 3s, and converted 31 of them. That was good for .449%.

    OKC has Durant and Ibaka for perimeter shooting, most of the time. If you are cheating on Russ, he will make the pass to the open man. If you aren't cheating on Russ, or you have an inferior defender like JR or Irving on him, he will get to the rim anytime he wants.

    I disagree with the premise that Adams won't make a bad defender suffer. He is a good cutter, and a good shooter around the basket. Ibaka is an elite shooter, but not necessarily a post-up player. He is still going to make a lot of shots vs a bad defender.

    All in all, I do think it would have been a much closer series, but I don't agree that the Cavs would have won. I could see it going to 7, though. I'd have put the Cavs chance vs OKC as a 48-52% type thing, whereas against GS I honestly saw a 0% chance of victory for the Cavs.
     
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  29. PhiNomina

    PhiNomina White-Collar Redneck

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    Fair. I think we agree it would be a close series - just disagree on who edges it out.

    As long as we agree that Dion Waiters facing his old team in the NBA Finals and firing off 30 shots would've been more fun than anything in this GS vs CLE matchup.
     
  30. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    They were running Yao Ming commercials in China in 2009 and he wasn't even playing so obviously you can. Wade was one of the most popular players in the country. I have no doubt he would have gotten that shoe contract regardless and that it would have been huge. The only part that can be claimed is that Lebron signing made it bigger, but that's an unknown when you're already one of the most popular players in the country.
     
  31. sports24/7

    sports24/7 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think you can throw those first 3 names out the window unless those GMs lose their minds. Crowder + maybe, but does Boston want to give away their cap space? Melo possibly, but I think NY would rather the cap space. Millsap I doubt because he's coming off 3 straight all-star games while showing he can share the ball with other good players. That might be the best option for Cleveland, but other than him being 31 I don't see why Atlanta would do that.
     
  32. finfansince72

    finfansince72 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Of course, I mean why would any objective person think tens of millions of dollars would influence anyone's decisions? Theres nothin wrong with being a homer, it is what it is.
     
  33. sports24/7

    sports24/7 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    He's not saying it wouldn't influence his decision. He's saying it isn't illegal or immoral, and he's saying it isn't the only reason he chose to stay in Miami. Playing in Florida with no state income tax is also going to influence his decision. Should the Heat and Dolphins not be allowed to use that to their advantage? Playing in a desirable city is also going to influence his decision. Should leagues force all players to live in some sort of commune in the middle of the country to eliminate that influence? His family already living here certainly influenced his decision. Should that not be allowed?
     
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  34. finfansince72

    finfansince72 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I'm talking about circumventing the salary cap which is against league rules, thats an unfair competitive advantage that other teams don't have. When you have a player signing team friendly deals for a franchise when they were offered more elsewhere and then a huge outside contract pops up with ties to the owner it should be looked upon suspiciously. The league has a fairly hard cap and harsh repercussions for teams that go over or go around the cap.
     
  35. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    You realize he took that team friendly deal two years before the Li-ning contract right? It's possible he could have had an agreement in place for two years down the line, but it's even more likely that it didn't exist and wasn't a factor.
     
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  36. sports24/7

    sports24/7 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    If it's against league rules, then why hasn't there been anything done about it?
     
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  37. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

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    We talking about a shoe deal? Not even a real game man. We talking about a shoe deal.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  38. PhiNomina

    PhiNomina White-Collar Redneck

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    He's in the last year of his contract and Love is signed long-term on a deal that will look nice under the exploding cap. Straight up as players I don't think ATL would do it -but long-term it might make some sense for them.

    Someone last night said Khris Middleton and John Henson for Love but I don't think MIL would do that.
     
  39. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    As I said earlier, unless there's some unknown evidence that Arison paid some additional money to Li-ning to funnel it to Wade two years into the future, there was no rule violation. If that had happened too many people would know and the league would probably have got wind of it. The far more likely scenario is that there were a ton of reasons for Wade to sign the deal he did none of which included some future contract that didn't exist and then two years later a shoe company signed one of the most popular players in their country to a huge contract.
     
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  40. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    And Heat fans are the salty ones...
     
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