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Tannehill Poised For Success?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Galant, Jun 24, 2016.

  1. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I've asked before, but how many great QBS, who are consistently in the playoffs, are on teams with serious questions on other units? Look at recent history: Seattle, Denver, New England, Baltimore, etc. Sure, you might have teams from weaker conferences who get in that aren't complete, but the powerhouse teams are usually good all around.
     
  2. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Raheem Club Member

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    Its an excellent point. Perhaps many Dolphins fans saw Marino do that many years and expect that its the norm? We were spoiled for a long time by someone who could get what otherwise would have been a 6 or 7 win team into the wildcard, but thats about as rare as it gets.
     
  3. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Honestly, I'm on board with the Stringer Bell train, Travis.

    I want to either have a QB on a rookie contract, or take smart gambles on players like Ryan Fitzpatrick and RGIII while building the other parts of the team.
    if you find that you have an elite QB or competitor at the position (like Russell Wilson), then you pay him after that rookie contract.

    So, that doesn't answer your question, haha, but if you consider Ryan Fitzpatrick a bottom 3rd QB and paying him cheap, then I'd go that route...because you could have a year like he did last year.

    I'm certainly not advocating going into the year with Josh McCown or Brian Hoyer as our QB, but I think you can find a QB at a right price, while you continue to draft QBs.

    My preference? QBs on their rookie deals until you find "The One".
     
  4. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    This is exactly the point, it's all about the averages, and not surprising that you are on the side of the averages :yes:

    As you point out, in the salary cap era it's harder to do, but even still, it was hard to do before the salary cap as well.

    People always bring up the 2000 Ravens or some other example, but they are rare, and shouldn't be a template, they are exceptions to the rule.

    The Bengals have had one of the most talented teams in the league for several years now, and due to poor QB play it has got them zero playoff wins.

    The Marino Dolphins had gone to the playoffs with bad defense and poor rushing multiple times, at times, with Marino seemingly dragging the entire team, kicking and screaming.

    The Steelers have had great teams for years, and a great HC in Cowher, and with a great team even got to the SB in 95, but poor QB play ended that SB for them, it wasn't until they got Ben that they won a SB, and they won a couple.

    If you want to win playoff games, and the SB, the absolute best chance you have is by getting an elite QB, so that should always be the #1 goal of a team, to get an elite QB.
     
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  5. Don't_Be_A_Troll

    Don't_Be_A_Troll Banned

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    With the improved offensive line, good head coach, and receivers this guy might become a slightly above average QB. Phins up to that.
     
  6. Don't_Be_A_Troll

    Don't_Be_A_Troll Banned

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    As a Tannehill fan I think we should just get him a really good offensive line, stout defense, and receivers that never drop the ball. He will thrive and we can keep paying him over $20 million a year.
     
  7. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Seattle, Denver, NE, Baltimore each have very bad units on their respective teams.
     
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  8. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    That first superbowl, Ben was terrible.
     
  9. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    There are middle of the road QBs that play above their pay grade. Tyrod Taylor being the most recent example.
     
  10. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Indy always had questionable defenses all those years Manning was QB. The one year they won it, they had a good defense. But they were always in it. NE always has a good defense somehow, not sure how because their personnel has been suspect the past few years save one or to in the secondary and DLine. They get rid of WR and RBs and suffer no ill consequence for it.

    Baltimore is decidedly pretty average all around actually.

    You are putting the cart before the horse though. With a great QB, you're set for a decade or more. Units come and go. Strong defenses don't last more than a couple years due to attrition. The anchor of a team, the whole team, is the QB.
     
  11. Don't_Be_A_Troll

    Don't_Be_A_Troll Banned

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    Yeah but Tannehill can win with a great defense, great offensive line, great coach, and top WRs. If the team can carry him we can win with him.
     
  12. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Raheem Club Member

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    I think its supposed to be ironic, right? Come in and be a troll your first few posts even though your name says not to.
     
  13. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That's the thing. Do you wait and wait and wait and HOPE he plays above his paygrade, spending 8 years of your time and maybe he doesn't develop into that person, maybe he does? That's a long time to wait. We should be drafting QBs every year and having them develop instead of just sitting on Tanny and Moore all these years.

    Jay Fiedler absolutely worked out by the way, for a few years.
     
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  14. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    How are you evaluating that?
    In terms of production? Or production relative to cost? I'm interested to get your perspective.
    Also, I'd love to get the thoughts on why Fiedler would be consider successful and Ryan Tannehill would not, if you feel Tannehill hasn't been and Fiedler has.
     
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  15. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Raheem Club Member

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    Fiedler was a joke. Not just a bottom 5 QB one year, but every year that he was our team's starter. He and the offensive style and playcalling robbed the team of about 2 wins a year each one he was there. Not only was he very lowly skilled, but whats worse, he thought that he was awesome and didn't play within himself, causing turnovers and throwing deep when a clear first down was available. Had we started any one of about 20-25 QBs instead of him, we'd have likely had multiple 12-13 win seasons in those years and gone who knows how far in the playoffs.
     
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  16. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    He couldn't throw an out pass. He did not have the arm strength.
     
  17. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    The Dolphins have done that with Tannehill, they changed the offense to passing plays that he was best at.
     
  18. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    My wife once bought me a Fiedler jersey. I was like uhmmmmm well I appreciate the gesture, but I hate that guy. I took the jersey back :)
     
  19. miami365

    miami365 Member

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    6-1 record when Albert, Pouncey and James play together tells me all I need to know about the potential and issues of this offense.
     
  20. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Funny how time and bias changes our recollection. Fiedler wasn't great, but he was average. In 2001, he was 14th in passing yards, 10th in TDs, 13th in passer rating (among passers with 300 attempts). He was around 15th in 2002 as well, but cut his INT rate down.

    IN 2002, if he didn't get injured, was on his way to an even better season. Look at what the team did with Fiedler, and without.

    You guys are mixing today's numbers with 2001 numbers. Passing was much tougher back then. His slotting in the league was basically where Tanny is ranked today. But was he on a very high contract?
     
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  21. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Production relative to cost. I didn't have high hopes for Fiedler and he kept us humming. I have high expectations for Tanny and want more. One is an 8th overall pick getting paid $19 million. The other is a castaway that cost us zero resources to pick up. I'm trying to find his salaries but I can bet you it was minimal.

    I don't like what Wannstedt did though. We should have been playing Fiedler while scouring for an elite QB. That's the strategy. QBs that produce relative to their salary, while looking for your Tony Romo. Your Marc Bulger. Your Kurt Warner. Your Russell Wilson. Guys drafted later or UDFAs.
     
  22. JPPT1974

    JPPT1974 2022 Mother's Day and May Flowers!

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    Fiedler was better as a backup. Then he was a starter. He was average at best.
     
  23. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Fair.

    I disagree, but thanks for the explanation.

    in 2002, Fiedler resigned with Miami for on a deal that was 5yrs/24.5m
    http://articles.latimes.com/2002/feb/14/sports/sp-newswire14

    No idea what the valuation of that was back then or not, relative to everyone else, etc.
     
  24. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    He never really played prior to Buffalo. He played well when given the opportunity. He was available on the open market to any team last off-season.

    Jay Fiedler performed well relative to his compensation. The other guys aren't analogous really, because they all required significant investment, and I'm not sure any of them played even at an average level.

    It is a risk, yes. But overpaying a QB is inherently a failed strategy.

    This is why teams always need to be looking for QBs. Even the best teams are looking for cheaper solutions to expand their options. IMO Miami should have been looking for talent at the position the last few years. Miami should have a QB on the roster currently that they are sure can perform commensurate to his 2017 salary. As of now they don't have that. It is very possible that Miami's 2017 QB will provide negative value to the team. Hopefully one of the QBs on the roster changes that.
     
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  25. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

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    Yeah the passing offense was ranked 9th in 2001, which is pretty respectable.

    1. Marino was top 10 a bunch of times.
    2. Pennington had the passing offense ranked 5th in 2008.
    3. Fiedler had the passing offense ranked 9th in 2001.
    4. Tannehill had the passing offense ranked 11th in 2014.
     
  26. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    We aren't talking about QBs that play at a high level, simply ones that play commensurate with their compensation or above it. You don't have to be great - just average but cheap. Tyrod Taylor is an average QB, but the guy is paid like $1M/yr. A guy like Ryan Fitzpatrick makes $3m/yr. and gets you a 89 passer rating.

    The question is if he doesn't play like a $20M/yr. QB, what should Miami do? Many people here have expressed that he is better than what Miami has had in the past, and Miami should keep him because finding a better QB will be a gamble.
     
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  27. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Fiedler was a terrible quarterback. So overrated by the Phin fans. Good competitor, terrible at throwing the ball. Can't throw an out pattern. Didn't have the arm strength. Not the best decision maker. So much worse than Trent Green that it is not funny. Don't care how much he was paid. Tannehill would have done much better with those teams than Fielder.
     
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  28. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Again, if he was terrible, how has Tanny been? Fiedler was middle of the road in many statistical categories. Tanny was 20th in passer rating last year. 14th in 2014, his best year. Fiedler was 13 and 15 in the two years I referenced (wheels came off in 2003). Yards are 9th, TDs 15th.

    Relative to the era, Fiedler and Tanny occupy the same spot ...

    I'm not arguing both have the same amount of talent. Tannehill is supremely more physically talented.

    But production wise, so far, it's been about the same ...
     
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  29. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Fiedler couldn't even run today's offenses. He couldn't run either Sherman's or Lazor's offense.
     
  30. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    And they went 11-5 two years in a row, playoffs both years, and won our last playoff game. Not even Dalton's teams have won a playoff game.

    Keep in mind they won the playoff game with Lamar Smith, and never made the playoffs with Ricky. 3.7 ypc and 3.1 ypc in those two years. Fiedler got better every year he was here (2000-2002) until 2003 and everything started to fall apart. 75 to 85 passer rating. In 2002 the team was 7-3 with him starting, and 2-4 without him starting.
     
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  31. Hiruma78

    Hiruma78 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    ah, the win against the Colts...when he trew what, like 3 interceptions on the first 3 drives of the game?! I wanted to cry watching it live (and to be honest, my opinion of Manning is still heavily influenced by that game: how is it possible that his team lost that game after that?!)


    my 2 cents, about Fiedler: I am kind of surprised he was even middle of the road for his time... watching him and that team playing, I always felt he was just awful and that he simply coulnd't make all the required throws and that he was our true problem.
    Anyway, I respect the guy, because he wasn't talented but boy! he was a gamer for sure and a true leader for what I remember.
     
  32. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    I would cringe every time he went back to throw expecting an interception and a pick 6.
     
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  33. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    Whatever. Plays were changed but again it was not because of Tannehill lol.
     
  34. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    What makes you say that? Fiedler was known as being very intelligent.
     
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  35. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    Yeah, he has a degree in mechanical engineering from Dartmouth, and word was he scored through the roof on the wonderlic.

    Jay and QB17 had a few things in common, both were smart, although Fiedler was smarter, and both were very tough, QB17 is much more athletically gifted, but Fiedler was more of a gamer.

    The main problem with Fiedler wasn't that he couldn't make all the throws, it was that about every 12th throw or so, you just didn't know where the ball was going to end up, similar to QB17 in the first couple years.

    Fiedler was a better leader, where QB17 is a better athlete.
     
  36. VManis

    VManis Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Fiedler wasn't as bad as some fans remember but not as good as his raw stats would leave you to believe. He was a smart guy (has a degree in mechanical engineering from Dartmouth) and had guts and heart to spare. He was a good overall athlete (he was a decathlete) and could hurt teams with his legs as well but his downfall was his arm strength. As other poster pointed out he couldn't get enough velocity on an out pattern and as a result was a pick 6 waiting to happen whenever he tried one.

    I totally agree with the notion that you shouldn't overpay for a QB but that holds true for every position on the field. However, the idea that you should forgo a good QB being paid like a good QB for a lesser talent to save cap space is silly. As is the idea that if you keep drafting QBs somehow an elite player will fall into your lap. By its very definition elite players are few and far between. There are several franchises that have never in their history had an elite QB so the notion that one is lying out there at the next draft is fools gold.

    Luck's new contract has reset the bar for QBs which in relation makes Tannehill's contract even more palatable for the team and certainly commensurate with his performance to date.
     
  37. VManis

    VManis Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Since its throw back Thursday and we have been talking about Fieldler, he definitely left it on the field this game.

    [​IMG]
     
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  38. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    He doesn't have the arm. He could not throw a quick out pass. That is a very simple pass in a passing offense. Most of his interceptions got touchdowns were due to his very low arm strength.
     
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  39. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Lamar Smith ran for over 200 yards.
    Talk about giving quarterbacks too much credit

    Fielder held those teams back. He was better than Ray Lucas, however, that is not saying much.
     
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  40. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    While I think Fielder is a terrible quarterback, I will never talk bad about his toughness and effort. He gave it all on the field. Just not a good quarterback.
     
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