Ryan Tannehill Tier 3 according to ESPN

Im sure he was meaning in a hostile way. Im not being hostile by any means, I enjoy GOOD conversation about football with anyone. There is no need to take it to absurd levels. I have no desire to strike up some battle with anyone. If you do not wish to partake, I suppose you could just put me on ignore and leave it at that.

But if you want to discuss this rationally? Im all ears, rather we agree or not.

 

Jason Avant and Riley Cooper?? Not sure if serious.

McCoy was a fantastic back...Desean Jackson isn't all that different than Wallace...Jackson simply had a guy who struggles at the QB position in just about every aspect besides deep accuracy (Foles)

His OL was bad it appears as was his defense. Be it a one year wonder or not, he thrived under said conditions...so YES it is possible.

 

Are we sure? Playing devils advocate, I would say that ball placement has been a Tanny gripe for some time now. And the space is normally created by the ability of the WR and or inability of the DB not so much a play call.

 

I would take Cooper and Avant over Hartline and Matthews. And Jackson (at least, IMO) is a better receiver than Wallace.

 

Its fair to take DeSean over Wallace.....but the years in question the pass catchers were..

Philly - Jackson, Cooper, Avant, Celek

Miami - Wallace, Landry, Hartline, Clay

Certainly arguable which was overall better, but I dont see how anyone could think EITHER was behind by much from the other.

 

I was talking specifically about 2013. Sorry for not making that clear.

But, in the years in you're talking about, yeah, I would take Philly over Miami's group. I like Landry and Clay was good, if inconsistent, but Mike Wallace still hasn't returned to Pitt form and I'd take Jackson, Cooper, and Avant over Hartline.

 

No, he told us to ignore each other and not respond. So just stop responding.

 

Watching Eagle games that year, I was always amazed by how many receivers were wide open.

 

Not how I interpreted it....but if you need to? Exercise the ignore feature. I for one do not hold grudges, so if you ever want to try to have a solid discussion? I'll be here.

Id be lying if I said I had seen all that many Eagles games, but I also feel Chip Kelly was fired for a reason. And his only hope in this league going forward? Colin Kaepernick. Scary eh..

 

Yet, somehow we know Marino was a good QB, who would probably have made everybody's tier one.

 

QB1. Rush % = 32.7%
QB2. Rush % = 37.8%
NFL Average 2015. rush% = 40.9%

32.7% and 37.8% are not "basically the same"
One is pretty close to the NFL average and the other is the worst in the league.

 

On the surface perhaps, but a 10-6 team will run the ball more naturally because they are ahead late in the 4th qtr.

Even if it's minimal I'm sure it takes that 5% difference and cuts it in half. Another instance of numbers not telling the whole story.

And again, 5% more was NOT what made Qb2 and Qb1's seasons so different.


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2013 Team Rushing Stats.

Philly 500 attempts (4th in league). 2566 yrds (1st in league).
Miami 349 attempts (29th in league). 1440 yrds (26th in league).

If anyone wants to know why Foles with a **** oline and not allowed to audible (maybe btw), excelled while Thill didn't...its because the above numbers.

Its really, really, really ****ing simple. So simple in fact, its asinine to question it anymore.

If a QB has a crap oline, then he needs to have ways to counter that. 2 of the biggest ways to do that is to audible and have a running game. If you take one of those 2 things away with a bad oline, the QB if good will still do well. If you take both away EVERY QB WILL STRUGGLE.

Foles had a run game. Thill does not. They aren't the same.

 

I think Tannehill has put up Tier 2 QB stats the past three years, but obviously the team hasn't had much success. I would put him in the 12-15 range based on individual performance alone.

 

Didn't he just recently pick up Foles? Just sayin

 

No.

 

Foles is a Cheif

 

Did I even hint he wasn't a tier one QB?

 

Media can't decide whether to keep cutting RT slack due to "things" around him, or prepare to burn him at the stake. It seems to change day to day week to week with the different talking heads. I tend to lean towards being an RT apologist, but the one area I think he needs to show the biggest improvement is leadership, which we are told Gase is addressing. I think his long ball isn't as bad as some believe. Wallace seemed to be the biggest miss for Ryan in his career. I think that was always debatable how much was on Wallace, and how much was on Tannehill. RT certainly owns blame there. There just was never a good chemistry between them. And even though Wallace refrained from outward tantrums during his time here until the very end, I think you can't hide those feelings in more subtle interactions between team mates. I wonder if there was contention there. But most of the other deep balls to other receivers have had fair to good accuracy. I mean you can look at the "elites" and see balls over/underthrown all day long. They throw deeper more frequently though, which gives them the payoff (more wins). RT has had his hands tied and I think most people can see that and that it has been a significant factor in the team's overall results since he's been with Miami. He does however need to take ownership, grow some bigger balls, and take the offense into an emotional journey with that motivational drive to win. If he can't capture his teammate's hearts and not just professional respect, he might not get many more chances.

 

who coaches there? his old OC?

 

He struggles on 3rd downs, and in the 4th quarter. Those are critical points in the game. I also little faith that if the team is down he can bring them back. If he can improve on 3rd downs and 4th quarters he will be fine.

 

Andy Reid

 

Wilson and Newton should both be tier 1 IMO.

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So, here's a good question for everyone here....what does Ryan Tannehill need to do to improve? I mean no disrespect here. I'm asking a very honest question that maybe pushes this forward and spurs conversation. What things can Ryan do to improve on 3rd down, 4th quarter, etc.?

I think finding legit answers that pertain to football-related things or at the very least getting people to express in writing what they truly hope to see are what most of us "apologists" would like to hear/learn.

We often hear words like "leadership" but I'd still like to know what that means to the folks here. Is that yelling at teammates on the sidelines a la Brady? Celebrating more a la Cam? Doing more in the huddle? Being more aggressive with certain throws?

I've said before that I don't think he sees the field very well at all. The cringe-worthy stuff from Ryan that I see is often related to how slow and unnatural he looks in the pocket. He's never looked natural going through progressions. Whether the game is too fast at the NFL level or he just hasn't ever gotten comfortable throwing to guys who look (to him at least) to be covered, I don't know.

Nevertheless, if there was something I had to point to as his downfall, I'd say he just doesn't instinctively play the position with the idea that he can be aggressive as a QB. Ironically that may be the undoing of this season wherein he's under more scrutiny that ever before but yet we want to see him play a more free-wheeling style than he has to date. We may have to watch him re-start his career somewhere else for that to really ever happen. The attitude in Miami may simply be too corrosive.

I think we've grown accustomed to watching gun-slingers in this modern era: Favre, Roethlisberger, Rodgers, Rivers, Romo, etc. Even the more successful young guys look to have a bit of that mentality. We've seen it from Wilson and Newton who've both looked unstoppable at times.

While there are other ways of doing things, I think it's obvious that a certain amount of risk-taking is necessary to achieve success (at least if the Super Bowl is the goal). Just as an example, I don't know that Flacco, Dalton, Brady or Brees really come off as gun-slingers. Brees maybe? And while Brady and Brees are light-years ahead of Tannehill, I don't think Flacco/Dalton territory is that far ahead. That being said, maybe someone else can put this into more explicit football terminology.

But even so, what can Ryan do in particular situations (3rd down, 4th quarter, etc.) to be better? Maybe that question doesn't make sense if we're not the ones calling plays, I don't know.

What do you guys think?

 

I never wanted him hired. Had many battles with the guy who liked your post who thought he was a good coach.

 

Well, it matters because it shows that you have a guy who can give you 16 games and reach a certain overall level of production within the context of each game. Over the course of let's say 32 games, you can bank on the fact that there will have been good defensive opponents as well as bad ones. Some of your offensive game-plans will have been more aggressive than others.

To me, it shows a certain level of overall, big-picture production that simple averages don't capture. If you don't think that both types of data are useful in painting the picture I disagree. I agree with you that the kind of data you're looking at is very important and also not so great in selling Ryan but the overall numbers (which to me do paint a picture of consistency) are evidence that speaks to something you can fall back on as a positive.

In no way is it impressive and by that I mean he may be the worst starting-caliber QB in the league, IDK, but the point is that he makes it into the list of guys I'd consider to be worthy. To me, worthy is a step above a lot of guys. If you want to draft someone who's worthy of being a starting QB the history shows you have to draft a 1st round QB and even then the hit rate is about 50% with a huge number being complete fools garbage, can't-even-play type of QBs.

That should scare you. It certainly scares me.

Last year I did an extensive survey wherein I looked at every QB drafted in the modern passing era which began in 2004 and it's depressing info. I found virtually no success in QBs taken outside the first 50 picks. Behind 3rd rounder Russell Wilson, there is pretty much only Ryan Fitzpatrick and to me, he's a journeyman guy. You could point to a couple QBs taken in the early 2nd round, yes, but they are certainly not dominant QBs. They are the ones who are good enough to reach the Play-offs if their teams are strong. Take a look a Flacco for example (who I rank above Tannehill, mind you) and you notice he went 5-11 last year. Nevertheless, I believe Ryan is above being a journeyman because of the yearly passing statistics I mention. You couldn't put a guy like Fitzpatrick on a team like Miami and have him reach Ryan's production in year 3 or year 4 of his career and it's important to realize that because long-term, Fitzpatrick is uber-good in comparison to most guys taken in the 3rd round or later. The chance of finding Wilson is 1 in 100 (seriously) and remember, he only fell because of a lack of height. Most people saw him as a legit 1st round option in talent.

This is why I insist on taking a big-picture view in addition to the simply ranking QBs year to year based on averages. Both are very valuable, yes. But you may wind up throwing away a decent guy if you act to rashly. The hit rate on 1st round QBs is also terrible. So the decision to move on is a depressing one any way you slice it. When was the last time we saw a dominant QB emerge from the 1st round anyway, maybe Andrew Luck? And after him, who have we seen? It's pretty likely you end up with Blake Bortles, Ryan Tannehill, RGIII, Matt Ryan, Jameis Winston, Marcus Mariotta, Blaine Gabbert, etc.

At that competition, Ryan Tannehill gives you more than enough to win, lol. It ain't pretty, but that's the point. Drafting QBs high is nasty these days. It seems you're more likely to settle for a Gabbert, Bortles or Goff than you are to land anyone of any significance.

Also, for what it's worth, consider that as Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Drew Bress, Philip Rivers and that generation of QBs which dominated the late 2000s fades, the generation that's left will look like Tannehill, Flacco, Ryan, Dalton, etc.

It's not as though the league is awash in un-stoppable talent. There are a few, but they all appear to be in the NFC. Those are Wilson, Newton, and Rodgers. Right now, Miami's not really in a bad position at all relative to a lot of the others AFC teams. That's again another expression of how big-picture thinking is very valuable in analyzing your next move.


So, as you can see, I'm not unaware of the point you make. I'm not an idiot when it comes to this issue of Miami's QB. I've just looked at this over and over and over again as many of us have and I've come to realize the complexity of the issue and for that matter I regard views that come off as more one-sided as less attractive. You focus a lot of the negatives. I've acknowledged those. You're right but the matter is bigger than that in my view. There is simply more information to consider in ultimately deciding what Miami does after this season.

 

The biggest area he needs to improve is leadership. By leadership I mean he needs to keep the other offensive players focused and up tempo.

I think that will come with having more freedom with pre snap reads and audibles.

He also needs to leave the pocket as soon as protection collapses.

3rd down and 4th quarter problems is on the coaches. They need to protect Thill by rolling him out more and running the damn ball. When a defense knows your pass blocking sucks AND also knows we aren't going to run it, then they can rush the passer effectively with fewer people which means there's more players to defend the pass should Thill even get a pass off.

Think about it, 3rd down and 4th quarter are traditionally passing situations.....ESPECIALLY when your defense isn't stopping the other team.

 

Who also publicly and repeatedly admitted he was wrong. Of course you'd ignore that fact.

You also didn't answer the man's question.

 

I don't deny it. But didn't state anything factually wrong.

And my first sentence answered the question. For some reason you didn't deduce it.

If I didn't want him hired in the first place, why would I want him to stay.

 

Newton has only had one real season where it appeared he carried the team. Wilson there still remains some question marks, but another year of what we saw last year, and he's in. Wilson has only been asked to pass a lot about half this past year. of course he passed with flying colors but we need to see more. If I were choosing QBs, I might go Rodgers than Wilson (age is taken into account).

 

Because those are two different things. Do you need a special class to understand that?

If you don't like him, why do you keep touting his "expertise"?

 

His highest passer rating was 14 or so. He's been in the late teens, or even 20s.

 

Yes, you do. It's called a regular high school education.

I didn't. Again, you obviously didn't understand what I wrote. It is very difficult to carry conversations with you sometimes.

I didn't tout anyone's expertise or make any proclamations about the FO that picked and trained Tanny, or Tanny. I just find it funny the many many pages spent trashing the FO and coaching staff. Since the FO and coaching staff were the ones who decided Tanny was worth the 8th pick with hardly any experience or stellar collegiate stats.

 

May I ask the most obvious question?

What the tuck does it really matter? If he is the answer, he will be gone in ten years regardless. If he isn't he's gone. Putting this much energy into something you have no control over, and it doesn't actually affect any meaningful aspect of your life is just ****ing nuts.

The mist important thing you have in life is time. You can make more money, drink more or whatever, but you only have so much time, and choosing to debate this is a colossal waste of your most valuable resource.

If he's good it will be proven, if he isn't that will be proven. The outcome is not affected by anyone here, it happens on the own.

 

Except high school is a series of classes, that build on one another. They are not special as they are repeated year on year for the most part and meet a general standard. The fact they are common precludes them from being special for the most part.

 

If Ryan would do what he does on all the other downs and all the other quarters on 3rd down and in the 4th quarter he would be elite.

 

Well, I'm home from work today because I'm about to go discuss with my doctor the effects of the hemorrhoid surgery I had 3 weeks ago, lol. What do you want me to talk about?



Look, I'm a nice guy. I don't argue with people. I read what they write. I appreciate what they say. I share my perspective as respectfully as I can. These people I talk to often seem way smarter than me (props to Club Level, btw).

To really understand my views on Ryan Tannehill you have to understand that for me, I focus on the team. I don't care so much about individual players. The guys that I love in the NFL are the HCs and GMs who seem to "get it." I look at Bill Belichick, Ozzie Newsome, Ted Thompson, Bruce Arians, etc. They are my favorite players.

Miami hasn't had one of those guys in a long time and they do not have one of those now. I looked at Tannenbaum's history and have read what people smarter and more educated have said about him and it's not positive. He does not appear to understand what he's doing, not nearly as well as the guys who consistently win. There was a reason he left the Jets a burning ship sinking in the middle of the ocean. His strategy doesn't work. He's the guy who rushes into no-man's land and gets himself shot at the beginning of the battle. The teams he leads are in the long run more likely to get beaten up on by the teams who are led by the HCs and GMs I listed above. Tannenbaum's strategy gets him killed. The other strategies seem to keep those other guys alive.


I said last year that Ryan Tannehill was not the type of QB who was going to win you games. The Dolphins, if they understood that, should rebuild the defense around Ndamukong Suh. Did they do that? No. They brought in Adam Gase, which I have no problem with, but they then drafted a bunch of offensive players instead of finding the help at CB and DE that they so badly needed. This draft was awash in players who could've filled those holes well. Instead though, we fans get to root for mid-round RBs and WRs who are unlikely to produce much and who cost us a measurable chunk of our 2017 draft.

Yay!

I do not love where this team is at, nor where it's going, nor who is steering the ship. I don't think it's going to work. I think we've seen this story before. I largely stayed away from football this off-season and coming back I can now really sense how cruddy the Dolphins are as a team. I think 7-9 or maybe 8-8 would be a real solid year. Still, I can't put them ahead of the Pats, Jets or Bills so I don't know what'll happen.

If you can sympathize with where I'm coming from then you can easily see how these conversations about how good/bad Ryan Tannehill is seem like they are missing the larger point. I defend him only because, to me, all was not lost under the Philbin regime. I thought that if this team made the right moves, it could be competitive and it could find success and even grow to be one of the stronger AFC squads, even with Ryan Tannehill.

I am dubious of that proposition now, but not because of Ryan or even Gase. I've predict a 7-9 year but I don't even know exactly what upsides I should be looking for. We're going to have the same Guard problem in next year's offseason that we had this year. We're going to be starving for CBs, LBs and DEs and probably reaching to fill holes again.

Yay!

Dude...to me it's becoming apparent we talk about Ryan Tannehill because he's a small plot of dry land in a sea of distress. He's not saving you but at least he's not killing you, lol.

 

Two fast guys who offer little else really. 2014 Mike Wallace was actually pretty impressive in his non fly routes. He became a good red zone target etc.

Losing Clay and Wallace didn't help Ryan's cause last season. But it may have been the best thing long term...tbc


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Disagree. I think Desean is fantastic. Better than Wallace by a lot.

 

From the article:

The voting panel for our third annual NFL QB Tier Rankings consisted of 42 league insiders -- 10 general managers, five head coaches, seven offensive coordinators, five defensive coordinators, eight personnel evaluators and seven other position coaches/executives.

I polled coaches and evaluators on 33 QBs, asking them to place each player into one of five tiers, with Tier 1 reserved for the very best and Tier 5 reserved for the very worst:

Tier 1: Can carry his team each week. Team wins because of him.
Tier 2: Can carry team sometimes but not as consistently.
Tier 3: Legit starter but needs heavy run game/defense to win.
Tier 4: Might not want this guy starting all 16 games.
Tier 5: Do not think this guy should be starting.

It's a credible list. You're welcome not to agree with it, but denigrating it because it doesn't have Newton ranked quite as high as Brady, Rodgers, and Roethlisberger is silly.