1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Wilson Credited but OL unsung heroes - A look at OL play

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Galant, Aug 26, 2016.

  1. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

    7,853
    8,088
    113
    Sep 23, 2014
    Wilson isn't the topic, so what's your complaint about?
     
    adamprez2003 likes this.
  2. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    39,159
    21,798
    113
    Nov 29, 2007
    San Diego
    Its one thing to question whether Ryan can put it all together once the right pieces are around him.

    It's another universe to see what people are writing about Wilson in this thread. Hilarious.
     
    Finster likes this.
  3. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

    7,853
    8,088
    113
    Sep 23, 2014
    It wasn't one snap, Seattle's OL was outstanding for the entire time Wilson was in that game.
     
  4. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

    1,385
    560
    113
    Oct 11, 2013
    How about the SB then? Wilson is third all time in passer rating with multiple SB appearances and has the 9th highest passer rating in a single SB game.
     
    Finster likes this.
  5. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

    3,087
    2,038
    113
    Jul 27, 2013
    I don't get it, regardless of what Wilson does, that doesn't make QB17 any better or worse, but obviously some folks will feel better about QB17 if RW does worse, which isn't the smart money btw.

    If you feel threatened by how good some other QB is, you have a QB issue.
     
    roy_miami likes this.
  6. RealDolphinsFan

    RealDolphinsFan Banned

    19
    15
    0
    Aug 26, 2016
    I said RW had a 0.0 in the first half, which was true. U did stats for the whole game, that wasn't my point. My point is that in the last 2 years, RW has completely s the bed in a he first half of the games they lost. Sure he did much much better in the second half of those games. But imo, a true hof qb wouldn't perform that poorly in a first half with a team as stacked as they are. Tom Brady is almost 300 years old and he has never had a single first half in a playoff game like Wilson has had these past 2 years. Wilson was god awful, the statistics affirm that whether people choose to realize it or not. Tough to win a game when ur down 31-0 at halftime, or if ur qb has a 0.0 passer rating like against gb. I absolutely expect Wilson to regress this year. He's a very good qb not a great one, there IS a difference. Marino had 49 tds in year 2, u can't even compare a real hof qb like Marino, Brady, manning to this guy, it's not even close. People who really understand this game know that, but Russell is unique in his skill set so naturally people like to cheer for the guy. At the end of the day though size still matters a lot at the position whether people want to accept it or not. That's why a guy like Cam Newton has a legit shot at the hof, he is a truly elite talent. Russel Wilson is not.
     
  7. cbrad

    cbrad .

    10,659
    12,657
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    Cam Newton's stats are far less impressive than Wilson's. And I doubt most people would agree with you about the HoF thing. If Wilson let's say continues what he's done for at least another 6 years, that's easily HoF material.

    Right now, stats-wise, RW is more on track to be in the HoF than Newton.

    Here are the two so you can compare:
    http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/N/NewtCa00.htm
    http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WilsRu00.htm
     
    Finster likes this.
  8. RealDolphinsFan

    RealDolphinsFan Banned

    19
    15
    0
    Aug 26, 2016
    Thats fine, but people who really understand football, generally aren't too concerned with stats.
     
    Piston Honda likes this.
  9. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

    40,533
    33,035
    113
    Dec 11, 2007
    You are not including rushing.

    Newton had 14 rushing touchdowns during his rookie year. Wilson has 12 total.

    *This is not a disparage of Wilson, this is more of a, Newton is not far less impressive.
     
  10. cbrad

    cbrad .

    10,659
    12,657
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    You're concerned with stats.
     
  11. cbrad

    cbrad .

    10,659
    12,657
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    I still think RW's way ahead of Newton in any HoF prediction voting.
     
  12. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

    7,853
    8,088
    113
    Sep 23, 2014
    Newton is a better QB than Wilson, it's not even close. And I mean better as in overall skill set, how difficult it is for defenses to stop them, and how much of their team success is due to their individual play.
     
  13. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

    7,853
    8,088
    113
    Sep 23, 2014
    I think Wilson is way ahead in number of seasons where he had the number 1 defense in the league. Wilson is at 4, the rest of the NFL is at 0.
     
  14. RealDolphinsFan

    RealDolphinsFan Banned

    19
    15
    0
    Aug 26, 2016
    Ur entitled to ur opinion. Just remember this FACT when the two best defenses faced off last year, both with pedestrian offensive talent. 31-0...at the half.
     
  15. cbrad

    cbrad .

    10,659
    12,657
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    Well guys.. first of all this isn't that important. I think both are good QB's. If you paid attention to those "tier" rankings of QB's where they asked GM's and coaches to rank QB's, Newton and Wilson have been placed in the same tier last few years. It's not that one is "clearly better" than the other according to NFL insiders.

    But.. stats do matter with HoF voting, and I guarantee you not just that SB win for Russell matters but the well above average stats do too. Of course, this is only 4 years in for him so who knows what will happen. Those saying no scrambling QB has remained that elusive throughout their careers are correct of course, but so far I think RW is ahead in probability of getting into the HoF.

    Again.. not worth too much debate since it boils down to opinion anyway, but that's what I think.
     
  16. RealDolphinsFan

    RealDolphinsFan Banned

    19
    15
    0
    Aug 26, 2016
    Of course Newton is better. I would bet all 32 gms would take him over RW any day of the week. It's only the armchair gms online who have nothing at stake that think otherwise. Wilson is a very popular and likable player, Cam Newton is not.
     
  17. cbrad

    cbrad .

    10,659
    12,657
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    True, and good point. Just keep in mind you're making an argument using stats. I point this out because you often take the position stats aren't that important.
     
  18. RealDolphinsFan

    RealDolphinsFan Banned

    19
    15
    0
    Aug 26, 2016
    Everyone knows stats matter to a certain extent, they just aren't the end all and be all like some people want to believe. if Wilson really is this elite qb, he should have no problem crushing the lowly dolphins with that defense. Should be fun to see.
     
  19. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    5,227
    6,527
    113
    Dec 7, 2014
    C'mon guys. Recognize a troll and stay away.
     
  20. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    111,652
    67,546
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    So what's your overall point?... Forget it Ph, I already know when it comes to this player...you've been very clear..I guess it will take about year of elite play.
     
  21. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    111,652
    67,546
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    Lol
     
  22. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

    40,533
    33,035
    113
    Dec 11, 2007
    Due to super bowl victory and getting to a second super bowl, I agree.
     
  23. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

    7,853
    8,088
    113
    Sep 23, 2014

    The difference is I'm not calling Bobby Wagner elite, on pace for the for the HOF, or anything of the sort, based on stats.

    QBs, and QBs only, are judged on overall team success. No one will ever say that Joe Thomas or Joe Haden are lesser players bc Cleveland never wins. No one will ever say that Branden Mebane is better than Suh because Mebane knows how to win in the playoffs. So when you say Wilson has a better HOFER trajectory it's primarily based on team success and the faulty logic that comes with it, with respect to QBs.
     
  24. RealDolphinsFan

    RealDolphinsFan Banned

    19
    15
    0
    Aug 26, 2016
    2 more weeks...
     
  25. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

    7,853
    8,088
    113
    Sep 23, 2014
    There's no riddle or hidden meaning, Seattle's OL dominated the game while Wilson was in, vs Minnesota their OL got beaten up and Wilson was getting sacked left and right, 4 or 5 times in the first half alone.

    Instead of picking fights you might wanna actually watch the games.
     
  26. RealDolphinsFan

    RealDolphinsFan Banned

    19
    15
    0
    Aug 26, 2016
    Lol
     
  27. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

    7,853
    8,088
    113
    Sep 23, 2014
    Going back to the OP, we have have a microcosm of Wilson vs other top level QB's. Snap, dropback, pocket clean as a whistle, most QBs would scan the fieldd, find a target and throw a TD. Not Wilson. He "scrambles" away from some non-existent pressure, dances around for a while then throws the same TD that most good QBs would've thrown 10 seconds earlier. And according to some, that's an example of why he's so good.


    LOL.
     
  28. cbrad

    cbrad .

    10,659
    12,657
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    Yeah.. but it's hard to use stats to make an argument when there are almost no stats to use.

    There are far more ways of indirectly measuring a QB's impact on the game (where arguably he has an important influence) than for a MLB or OT. Maybe not in principle, but certainly in practice (as in the stats that are actually reported).

    All I'm saying is that most people who like to say "stats aren't that important" behave opposite of what they're saying when there are many relevant stats available, as in the case for QB's.

    But yes I agree that in HoF voting or even in general perception of which QB is better, the team around the QB seems to be devalued more than it should be, though it's really hard to prove that.
     
  29. cbrad

    cbrad .

    10,659
    12,657
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    I think you measure "good" by how well it works. If it works, it's good.
     
    djphinfan likes this.
  30. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

    1,385
    560
    113
    Oct 11, 2013
    Its not even close to being true.
     
    jdang307 and Finster like this.
  31. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

    1,385
    560
    113
    Oct 11, 2013
    I would bet somebody created a new account to let their true feelings about Wilson be known without letting their established account look foolish.
     
    jdang307, Finster and cbrad like this.
  32. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

    1,385
    560
    113
    Oct 11, 2013
    And no would say Newton was league mvp before he was 15-0.
     
    jdang307 likes this.
  33. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

    44,356
    22,480
    113
    Mar 22, 2008
    The NFL has actively given QBs that impact. This is how they've designed the rules. They arent changing rules to increase the value of DTs or LBs

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk
     
  34. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

    7,853
    8,088
    113
    Sep 23, 2014
    That's a valid and important point but it applies to all QBs, it doesn't change the way QBs are perceived the way wins and losses do.
     
  35. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

    44,356
    22,480
    113
    Mar 22, 2008
    Disagree...the rules have dictated a few important things:

    - QBs are much more protected and can't be hit the way they used to
    - Offensive line play has become markedly worse
    - Practice time has been limited
    - The types of throws QBs need to make have drastically changed. More short passes to empty space rather than deeper throws that rely on timing

    All of these things place a much greater value on QBs that can evade pressure and use their legs, and devalues QBs that can "make all the throws". You don't need to make many of the typically difficult throws that were prevalent in the past. NFL offensive lines simply won't give you the time for those routes to develop. You are much more likely to create time for routes to develop by evading the inevitable pressure. And QBs simply aren't physically punished the way they have been historically.

    Beyond that, the college game has changed greatly. QBs aren't being developed as pocket passers. Once they get to the NFL they don't have the type of protection to develop into pocket passers, and the practice time is even more limited, which makes their development in certain areas less likely. QBs are basically going to live and die primarily off of their natural abilities to a much greater degree.

    Who are the great pocket passers to come out in the past five years? They don't really exist. Guys like Manning, Brady, Rivers, etc. are almost extinct.
     
    roy_miami likes this.
  36. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

    7,853
    8,088
    113
    Sep 23, 2014
    I agree 100%, it's easier to compile stats related to QB play than it is for any other position and more importantly IMO, QB related stats are easier to articulate and draw conclusions from.

    My main issue with stats is that they are so often taken out of context. For example, I want to scratch my eyes out reading about QB X and what his YPA is. YPA is not an individual stat, it's far more useful being used as defensive stat than it is being attributed to a QB.

    More generally, stats are used to measure things that are available for measure. But there are a ton of things that aren't measure able. For example, did the QB read the coverage correctly, did he look to the right receiver and throw an accurate, on time pass? Did the receiver read the coverage correctly and run a precise route? These are critical factors that we as fans know nothing about because there's no stat for them. All we have is the end result because all stats measure is the end result. It goes back to context, I think that many of us take the relatively small amount of info available via stats and then form opinions that are far more hardened than they should be.
     
    cbrad likes this.
  37. Piston Honda

    Piston Honda Well-Known Member

    7,853
    8,088
    113
    Sep 23, 2014
    I would call guys like Carr, Bortles, Dalton, Tannehill, Winston, Osweiler, the top 2 QB's drafted this year, pocket passers.

    I agree that the game is evolving, though I think DL play is getting better more than OL play is getting worse. I agree that the trend is towards shorter quicker passes, more receivers and less TEs and FBs. But I'm not ready to say the pocket QB is in decline. I think Wilson is a uniquely talented player, Cam Newton even moreso, those are once in a decade talents and despite the trend I don't expect we will be seeing players like them with anything close to regularity.
     
  38. cbrad

    cbrad .

    10,659
    12,657
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    If someone was willing to categorize the different routes and coverages, you wouldn't need to worry about whether they are the "correct" routes or coverages or whether someone recognized them as such. Statistical analysis will take care of determining which ones are most productive in different situations or how different players compare in performance given different routes/coverages. So these things actually are measurable. No one measures them though, at least not for free public consumption, which is a big problem as you point out.

    Football is actually a really interesting sport to look at from a statistical point of view because it's non-trivial to figure out through statistical analysis what the most likely causal relations are, yet it's doable in principle, especially because you have well-defined plays separated from other plays. Sports like soccer or ice hockey are near impossible to analyze in comparison.

    But to get a better handle on things, one definitely needs more stats like the ones you described.
     
  39. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

    1,385
    560
    113
    Oct 11, 2013
    The key word was "great."
     
  40. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

    3,087
    2,038
    113
    Jul 27, 2013
    There's no such thing as a great QB that doesn't put up great stats.
     
    cbrad likes this.

Share This Page