1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Differences in coaching from last year to this year,

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Pauly, Aug 29, 2016.

  1. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

    3,696
    3,743
    113
    Nov 29, 2007
    Just some comments from this article really made my head spin. http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/miami-dolphins/fl-dolphins-0830-20160829-story.html


    At first this looks like standard new coach boilerplate.

    Whoa. WTF! If our DBs had worked out the routes then 100% our opponents had too.

    Seriously WTF! This is straight up saying last year the opposition could look at the formation and diagnose what routes we were going to run.
     
  2. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

    18,044
    19,676
    113
    Dec 8, 2007
    Well away from here
    Just like we could sitting at home. It's no secret that the previous staff was incompetent save for a couple of coaches.
     
  3. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

    11,375
    11,392
    113
    Sep 28, 2015
    Remember when simple minds thought Philbin was a great hire??

    So glad we have someone who won't run off talent and get the most out of his team.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    Shane Falco and dolphin25 like this.
  4. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    Sooooooooooooooooooo yeah....when your line sucks, and the defense knows you're gonna throw cause you never run the ball.............AND they know what play is coming because you can't audible out of it.......then.....
     
  5. cbrad

    cbrad .

    10,659
    12,657
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    Not sure you can attack people for liking Philbin when he was hired. We know so little about how an OC transitions to a HC that it's understandable many people were supportive of the hire.

    Now.. supporting Philbin after at latest year 2 is another story.
     
    RevRick, Boik14, rafael and 1 other person like this.
  6. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    He's talking about me.

    I also have publicly admitted I was wrong numerous times about Philbin.
     
    resnor likes this.
  7. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Raheem Club Member

    51,927
    63,004
    113
    Apr 24, 2012
    Troy, Virginia
    As others have said before me, what the previous coaches did to our players last season was malpractice. The success the players on offense had was in spite of the situations they were put in, not because of it. If Gase and his staff are even average, then the difference should be huge, and I think that Gase is special.
     
    Rickysabeast and fin13 like this.
  8. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

    3,696
    3,743
    113
    Nov 29, 2007
    The comments fall squarely on Lazor's area of [supposed] expertise. Yeah Philbin should have overridden him, but the primary fault on this is Lazor. It was bad enough that his run/pass ratio was too predictable, but it compounds that error by making specific routes predictable too.

    I still think Philbin did a lot of good as HC, in terms of preparation. But when it came time to make actual decisions he was hopeless. Philbin had all the tools available to be successful, but froze like a deer in the headlights when it came to actually do things. Running off players with a mind of their own regardless of talent was just another symptom of his weak character.
     
    twistedjay likes this.
  9. Limbo

    Limbo Mad Stillz

    2,476
    1,128
    113
    Mar 21, 2013
    The same Bill Lazor that people wanted promoted to HC a year ago? The same Lazor whose coaching and offense yielded Tannehill's best season (2014)? Wasn't long ago the dude was the darling coach of Phins fans. Tide turned too fast on this guy; he was not as bad people are making him out.
     
    roy_miami, Pandarilla and jdang307 like this.
  10. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

    3,696
    3,743
    113
    Nov 29, 2007
    Firstly, Lazor's big problem had nothing to do with his scheme. In fact I'd say Lazor's schemes were, at the minimum, acceptable NFL standard. Lazor's big problem is that he became far too predictable and he was too proud to listen to advice and change his playcalling. (I assume that someone must have said something too him about this because it was plainly visible to fans).

    Secondly, It's easy to look like genius when you follow a bozo. Our expectations had been lowered by Sherman to the point where walking and chewing gum at the same time was considered a significant achievement.
     
    Rickysabeast and Fin D like this.
  11. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

    40,533
    33,035
    113
    Dec 11, 2007
    Well, we did want to get rid of Philbin.

    Turns out Lazor had many of the same failings as Philbin. He couldn't adjust when defenses caught up with his scheme.
     
  12. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    Its time people started asking themselves why our offense mostly faltered against our division foes who were even more familiar with what we were gonna do and helmed by defensive guys.
     
  13. Phins_Fan_87

    Phins_Fan_87 Phins and Heat fan Club Member

    7,503
    4,979
    113
    Mar 9, 2013
    Weston
    lazor sucked, but he was probably infected by the queesiest bastard around
     
    Pandarilla likes this.
  14. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

    3,696
    3,743
    113
    Nov 29, 2007
    Well, from another article http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/...de-dolphins-gase-profile-20160827-column.html
    Gase's first coaching job was self scouting, i.e. to eliminate tendencies and/or create traps for opponents who over react. Since that area got imprinted hard and early in his coaching career I do expect him to be better than average at preventing opponents from exploiting our tendencies.
     
  15. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    111,648
    67,540
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    I was out on Philbin and Lazor early.
     
    Fin D likes this.
  16. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    That is true.
     
  17. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    39,159
    21,798
    113
    Nov 29, 2007
    San Diego
    Didn't like the hire, confirmed it after Hard Knocks. But I like Gase. First one since Cam Cameron. I turned on Cam when Porter dressed him down and he didn't do anything.
     
    dolphin25 likes this.
  18. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

    40,533
    33,035
    113
    Dec 11, 2007
    I was out on Lazor 100% after the Martin situation.
     
  19. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

    44,356
    22,480
    113
    Mar 22, 2008
    Pretty much the case for 75% of what happens in todays NFL.



    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk
     
  20. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    That's a bit of an exaggeration.
     
  21. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    5,227
    6,527
    113
    Dec 7, 2014
    What I learned from the Lazor experience was that play-calling doesn't change and coaches are who they appear to be. It seemed like Lazor got a lot of credit for "cleaning up" Tannehill's stats in 2014. The media say 2014 as a "break out" year. The INTs were down and the completion% was up. That's kind of the same thing Gase did with Cutler last year. The problem is, you still need a vertical game to bite off big plays. Without chunk yardage that all important YPA measure never goes up. We didn't get that in Lazor's 2nd year and that's when I gave up. It seemed at that point that Lazor was out of his depth as an OC and play-caller.

    In terms of Gase I see a lot of improvement already. Tannehill is back to being more instinctive in the pocket like he was under Sherman. The footwork is getting better. The velocity is improved on certain throws. Tannehill looks more confident and more capable. We'll see if that continues in the regular season.

    I still see a lot of short-passing and quick-hitting stuff which bothers me because the execution tends to be somewhat sloppy. Dropped balls and receivers not quite get open have been an issue. Parker is going to be average as a possession receiver. His strength lie in getting down the field. The most complete receiver might be Stills, quite honestly, although Landry will probably get more looks as the possession guy moving the chains.

    All in all, I think this season we'll see the passing offense really start looking more legit--at least to the point that we look back on the Philbin-Lazor-Taylor era as a real dark period.
     
  22. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    No, you need to run the ball. As has been said, the game is different. Its a short intermediate passing league now. You need to run the ball (and not even necessarily effectively) to get the passing game open. The defense needs to be guessing between run and pass. That's why running QBs are having so much success right now. The defense doesn't know if they're gonna throw or run and that makes their job harder.

    It really isn;t more complicated than that.
     
    Rickysabeast likes this.
  23. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    5,227
    6,527
    113
    Dec 7, 2014
    Why did you start your post with "No?"
     
  24. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    Yes, I wasn't clear. My bad.

    I was basically talking about this:

    I meant to go back and just use that as the quote, but forgot by the time I was done with my response.
     
  25. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

    44,356
    22,480
    113
    Mar 22, 2008
    Don't agree that running the ball opens up the passing game. All the available data suggests that the amount of runs a team has early in the game isn't predictive or corollary to passing success in the future.

    What the data does indicate is that running the ball late in games is corollary with passing efficiency. Teams run the ball to reduce clock stoppage and shorten games. That provides value to the passing game, but it generally isn't going to be opening up anything, just reducing the number of passes they have to throw while behind.
     
    Fin-O, jdang307 and Rock Sexton like this.
  26. dirtylandry

    dirtylandry Well-Known Member

    4,214
    1,750
    113
    Aug 2, 2015
    not sure if this was posted, but this regime is making internal and external roster moves quicker. Dallas Thomas was guard for 1 game. that was it
     
  27. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

    21,176
    10,130
    113
    Jan 14, 2008
    Hornell, NY
    And let's be honest. If Gase has a similar record as Philbin, we will be having the same memories and discussions about him 2-4 years down the road.

    I'm sure if we went back and looked, we would find discussions on things we were enamored with that Philbin was doing differently than Sparano in his first year as HC.
     
    DolphinGreg likes this.
  28. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

    52,652
    25,565
    113
    Nov 13, 2009
    Route tree?

    [​IMG]
     
    number21, Fin-O and DolphinGreg like this.
  29. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    Not according to cbrad.
     
  30. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

    7,760
    3,486
    113
    Sep 4, 2010
    Maui, Hawaii
    I still believe the Dolphins are a few years away from being a playoff team. They just have too many huge holes on defense at this time, IMO.

    Yet I think Gase will be able to get more out of this team than Philbin ever did. I believe Gase could be the best head coaching hire for the Dolphins since Jimmy Johnson. Hopefully he will have better luck building the defense over the next few years than Johnson had building the offense while he was the head coach of the Dolphins.

    For the first time in years, I see reason to be optimistic about the Dolphins future. We may have to suffer though a couple of more mediocre seasons before it all comes together, but I believe Ross might have finally hired the right head coach.
    Hopefully Tannebaum doesn't screw it up.
     
  31. dirtylandry

    dirtylandry Well-Known Member

    4,214
    1,750
    113
    Aug 2, 2015
    when you say playoff team, you mean a one-year wonder like 2008 or like a 5-6 year run of playoffs?
     
  32. cbrad

    cbrad .

    10,659
    12,657
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    Yeah, let's be clear about the stats I looked at regarding rushing.

    So first of all, passing efficiency has a high correlation with winning while rushing efficiency has a low correlation with winning. That's especially clear once you see the distribution for playoff vs. non-playoff teams. I have those graphs if you need them again, but the result is clear: both on offense and defense what you should aim for (however you get there) is to maximize passing Y/A and minimize opponent passing Y/A.

    Now.. in a separate thread (forget where) the question turned to whether QB rushes open up the passing game. As expected the correlation with rushing efficiency was near zero. Then Fin-D suggested looking not at rushing efficiency for QB's, but instead looking at overall rush yards, and the result was better though the correlation still relatively low. For example, for Tannehill, the correlation of his rushing efficiency to passer rating is near zero, but between his rush yards and passer rating is 0.23 so low but clearly higher.

    Then I think Pauly suggested looking at the first year vs. later years because the defense might not have adapted as well for a new QB. The result was whopping. Tannehill's rush yards (not efficiency) in his first year is correlated with his 1st year passer rating by 0.62!!

    OK.. so that's talking about just QB rushing, and it varies quite a bit for different QB's. For rushing in general, it's also true that rush yards are better correlated with passer rating than rushing efficiency. In Miami's case it's steady at around 0.32.

    So that's what I found. All of that could be consistent with what Stringer Bell is saying because he's talking about different periods during the game first of all whereas I'm looking at whole-game statistics.

    But one thing I will support about what Fin-D is saying is that just in general it's rushing attempts and rush yards that matter more than rushing efficiency. This link suggests the correlation to winning between rush attempts is pretty high at 0.58, even higher than correlation of rush yards to winning, which is 0.45, at least in 2007 for the entire league:
    http://archive.advancedfootballanalytics.com/2007/07/what-makes-teams-win-part-1.html

    Of course, those are correlations and don't tell you on their own what led to what. I mean.. it's an obvious point to make that you run more when you're ahead so that could explain a good portion of that and be consistent with what Stringer Bell is saying. In conclusion, rush attempts/yards matter a lot more than rushing efficiency, but the causal relation behind why they matter is a bit unclear.
     
  33. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    I'll be clear as well, in this thread I was not talking about QB rushes. I was talking about team rushing.
     
  34. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,327
    9,874
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    Not sure how he can run around the forum constantly making personal attacks on posters...but, whatever.

    I think the simple minds were the minds inside the skulls of the last coaching regime.
     
    P h i N s A N i T y and Fin D like this.
  35. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

    7,760
    3,486
    113
    Sep 4, 2010
    Maui, Hawaii
    I think they have done a good job of building the offense with young talent and Gase should be able to bring the best out of Tannehill. I still question whether Tannehill can ever be the type QB to lead this team to a SB, but I am certainly willing to see how he develops under this coaching staff.

    I believe it is going to come down to them being able to put together a solid defense over the next few years before we will be able to determine if they will put together a 5-6 year playoff run. Right now they just don't have enough quality starters on defense and that is why I have been saying all along that this is a 4-6 win team this season.

    I am just hoping to see improvement throughout the season and then hope they are able to start upgrading the defense in the off season. I think they will need two more solid drafts before they can be considered a perennial playoff contender.

    Of course this is all dependent on Tannehill showing that he can be the QB for the next 5-7 years. If he doesn't have a productive season and they decide to go in another direction next year at the QB position, that would only delay the rebuilding process of the entire team.
     
    LI phinfan likes this.
  36. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

    11,375
    11,392
    113
    Sep 28, 2015
    Until you can show me where I trashed our QB?? Leave me out of your comments.

    Infact WHO trashes the QB? Show me an example...

    I see nobody saying he sucks, nobody saying he shouldn't be our QB...so you are making **** up because it's allowed.

    I'll be waiting for your reply, or maybe you should just "pretend" to put me on ignore so you can avoid answering my question.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    Finster likes this.
  37. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

    3,696
    3,743
    113
    Nov 29, 2007
    The third post in this thread:
    http://www.thephins.com/forums/showthread.php?89352-How-much-does-a-QB-contribute-to-winning

    Short version:
    In situations where NFL teams rush at a higher rate than average then pass efficiency is higher.
    In situations where NFL teams pass at a higher rate than average then pass efficency is lower.

    It is a consistent pattern which applies across all the splits that I found.
     
    resnor likes this.
  38. NCPhinFan

    NCPhinFan Active Member

    172
    154
    43
    Sep 22, 2014
    The precarious thing about this upcoming season is if Tannehill has an excellent year and we don't have a good record, there will be some ignorant fans and pundits who will call for Tannehill to be replaced. If that does happen, we have to find another quarterback and take another 3-4 years developing him.
     
  39. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    39,159
    21,798
    113
    Nov 29, 2007
    San Diego
    Does this take into account the premise though? Running early opens up the passing offense? Or is it whole game correlation you are talking about? Because Stringer covered that.
     
  40. cbrad

    cbrad .

    10,659
    12,657
    113
    Dec 21, 2014
    If Tannehill has an excellent year, I doubt you'll hear many pundits or ignorant fans saying he needs to be replaced. Most people can tell when you have a really good QB on a bad team.

    For example.. suppose Tannehill posts an average rating of 100, throws more TD's than ever and has a huge leap in Y/A while keeping INT's low, but the defense gives up the most points in the league and we lose a lot of games.

    Trust me.. most people here arguing Tannehill hasn't proven himself yet will be blaming the defense, not Tannehill, for our losses.
     
    Finster likes this.

Share This Page