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Let's talk defense...

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Fin D, Sep 27, 2016.

  1. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    The defensive side of the ball is the biggest problem our team is facing right now. What's wrong and how do we fix it?
     
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  2. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I'll do a deeper dive into this after I see the game Thursday as I'll be there in-person, but as of right now, it sounds like there are far too many mental errors going on. This is what Coach Gase said in his media availability yesterday. Jelani Jenkins is most definitely guilty of it. When there's a play-action fake, he's going to bit and has been caught out of position quite a bit. New England and Cleveland both feasted off this. I think Byron Maxwell's had some individual lapses out wide, especially when he's in off man.

    Some of it is personnel related. Jenkins and Kiko Alonso together aren't a very good combination at LB, especially in sub-packages. When Miami have had Julius Warmsley and Chris Jones on the field together at DT, they've been blown off the ball far too often in the run game. Both of them get too easily handled at the LOS against the run even when they're paired with Phillips or Suh. It is what it is. Jason Jones has struggled at times at RDE in the run game; Nate Solder and Joe Thomas were both able to seal him several times in the run game. That's a bit concerning, but you also have to consider that Jones' experience in this scheme was as a LDE with Detroit. He's been pretty good as a sub-package DT, much like he was in Detroit. I think he'll improve as the season moves along.

    As far as changes go, my initial thought would be to bench Jelani Jenkins. Neville Hewitt seems to play the run better. I think you seriously have to consider Chris Culliver over Byron Maxwell at CB if Culliver comes back healthy. Especially if Vance Joseph isn't going to run press coverage as frequently as many suspected he would, self included.

    I'll come back to this thread Friday or over the weekend; need to see how they look in-person on Thursday night. That said, going into this offseason Miami is going to need an infusion of talent, and speed, at both DE and at LB (I'd argue at both at WLB and MLB).
     
  3. dirtylandry

    dirtylandry Well-Known Member

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    I want to know fundamentally why we can't stop the run now going on two full seasons.
     
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  4. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Sometimes I feel like we've built our line to rush the passer and we've TRIED to build our LB corps to stop the middle of the field passing. I wonder if this is because our FO relies too much on analytics, considering passing stats correlate with winning.
     
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  5. mor911

    mor911 pooping

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    What defense? I havent seen any defense.


    OOOOHHHHHH!!! See what i did there?
     
  6. dirtylandry

    dirtylandry Well-Known Member

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    But are the tackles losing, the de's not setting the edge or the MLB's not plugging?
     
  7. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    No, I didn't. Please explain, in detail, "what you did there".......I'd tell you to have warp help you, but then your whole post will be full of misspellings.
     
  8. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I think its both.
     
  9. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I'd attribute the lack of run defense this season mostly on the LBs not making the correct reads and run fits. Tackling has also been a problem. A big problem. We've seen the DEs lose the edge a few times; most notably Jason Jones at RDE (he was a LDE most of his career) against the Patriots. Miami's CBs, Maxwell in particular, aren't very good at forcing things back inside in run support.

    Suh hardly loses in run defense. Jordan Phillips has improved, but he's still got room to grow. Consistency is his thing. We've seen him dominate guys like the forced fumble he had in Seattle where he basically eviscerated the guard, Russell Wilson and the back all in one motion, but he gets tired. Julius Warmsley and Chris Jones both get moved too easily in the run game. They do penetrate at times using their quickness, but it's not consistent enough.

    The biggest culprits though, IMO, are Jelani Jenkins all around game; Kiko Alonso's poor pursuit angles and inability to get unblocked; and bad tackling as a unit minus Reshad Jones. He CAN tackle.
     
  10. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Well, some of the problems are on the coaches.

    I mean when you KNOW the offense is going to just keep running the football because their starting QB was injured, it's inexcusable not to sell out to stop the run and force the QB to prove he can throw it to win the game.

    Otherwise, all I'll say is that if the players aren't performing well enough, then you need to add unpredictability to the mix. Got to at least try to confuse the offense more.
     
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  11. Mindwarp

    Mindwarp FFH

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    Over There.
    What he did here is that our defense has been so sub par that it's like they haven't even been on the field. Anyone with a second grade education would have been able to deduce that. However this is Fin D we are talking about so maybe I set the bar up to high.
     
  12. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Admit it.....someone proofed that before you posted it.
     
  13. dirtylandry

    dirtylandry Well-Known Member

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    very insightful. we were spoiled for years w Zach eating up the space created by Bowens and Gardner
     
  14. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    It's interesting to see how other teams are using this defense. Only two other teams run this Wide-9, or a variation of it consistently the way Miami does - Detroit and Philadelphia. Philadelphia, who has Jim Schwartz, the co-creator and Godfather of the Wide-9, are the best defense in the NFL right now. They're 1st in points allowed, 4th in total defense, 8th in passing defense, and 2nd in rushing defense.

    Detroit is at the opposite end of the spectrum. They've lost a lot of the key personnel they had in 2014 when their defense was elite. They're currently 27th in points allowed, 21st in total defense, 16th in pass defense, and 21st in run defense.

    Miami is a mix of being right in the middle and and pretty bad. Miami are 16th in points allowed, 28th in total defense, 18th in pass defense, and 31st in rushing defense.

    The defense can work (Philly) and has worked in this league before (Titans under Schwartz, Lions in 2014, Bills in 2014). Part of it is Miami needs an infusion of speed and a play-making LB. The less than stellar personnel combined with being new to this scheme (leading to mental errors) is Miami's situation. I think we'll see more improvement as we move along in the season, but any type of big leap forward probably won't happen until after this year when Miami can change out some of the bad personnel parts: Kiko Alonso, Jelani Jenkins, Byron Maxwell. Miami can probably also upgrade on some of the average parts: Jason Jones, Mario Williams, Koa Misi over the next year or two as well.
     
  15. muskrat21

    muskrat21 Well-Known Member

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    how do we talk about defense when we don't have one?
     
  16. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think to accurately gauge Miami's personnel needs and any issues with the scheme, we need more of a sample size than three games. Miami only have 3 guys who've played in this style of defense before. Ndamukong Suh throughout his entire career; Jason Jones while he was in Detroit; Mario Williams for one season, 2014 in Buffalo. The adjustment for the LBs is pretty different from what Miami was running under Kevin Coyle, and even under Tony Sparano in the case of Koa Misi.

    Having a short week to prepare for Cincinnati when Miami have a number of guys banged up won't help things short-term either.
     
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  17. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Got to defer to Ronin here, he's our resident defensive mind. :lol:

    It's pretty spot on though. If you watch a lot of the big plays against us again, it's not like we're getting completely decimated out there. Guys are sometimes in position to make plays, right up until they make a mistake. Whether its Jenkins biting on play action, a LB reading and plugging the wrong run gap, or a corner misreading the WR and opening his hips the wrong way getting himself out of position, or a missed tackle. A lot of the problems so far on defense look a lot like mistakes. You're always going to have plays where you get beat on D. That's football. It looks like we have some guys out there routinely beating themselves. Is that a lack of consistency coming from still adjusting to the new defensive schemes? Possible.

    My other concern on D is the CB position. Maxwell in off man, isn't working well. Press man is. Howard is a rookie, and appears to be holding his own. We need to hope nothing happens to those guys because what lurks below might be pretty scary. It's pretty unknown, that's for sure.

    The one player I don't get, and maybe Ronin can chime in here, is Jelani Jenkins. He's looked bad, bad, bad out there this year. Wasn't it last year or the year before that he was actually looking like a viable solution at LB? What's changed?
     
  18. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Yes, this. I know most of you wish this was video so you could see if I look like Bradley Cooper (per Rocky Raccoon) or not. Either way, I've been looking forward to doing something like this for a long time and was very glad to have Travis reach out. Hopefully I don't bore you all to death!
     
  19. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    Gase also mentioned today that there was some free lancing going on at the defensive line. This in turn was wrecking the gap assignments....and he said it had to stop. When I look at the defensive Tape...I know for me personally, I cant tell when someone is freelancing and messing up the gap assignments for the LB's. Ill leave that to those of you who can....but if Gase made a point of mentioning it, then it must be happening.

    Then you sit back and wonder if we are focusing on the LBs as the problem, when maybe its not.


    This is from an article Armando posted at the Herald:

    "Adam Gase and Vance Joseph sat down late Sunday evening and watched tape of the Dolphins defense against Cleveland, and as they talked, they got this feeling that they have the same problem. That's right, the team's top offensive coach (Gase) and top defensive coach (Joseph) have more or less the same problem.

    And that problem is everybody on their units are taking a turn stinking.

    “We need to be on the details," Gase said when asked about the run defense that is today 32nd in the NFL, one day after giving up 169 rushing yards to the Cleveland Browns.

    "Sitting there with Vance last night, we were watching it and understanding. We keep talking … It’s almost like mirror images of each other as far as offense and defense on certain things on offense compared to defense. When we talk about stuff, I feel like we’re both saying the same things on different sides of the ball. If we can clean up the little detailed things of doing your assignments -- staying in your gap, making sure that we’re fitting everything right.

    "Give us a chance to actually evaluate the scheme before we say, ‘We’ve got to do something different.’ If we do things right to start with, that’s going to give us our best chance to evaluate it and understand if we’re good or if we’re not good. Right now, I would say we’re not doing it well enough to say, ‘We need to move away from the scheme,’ or, ‘We need to do something different.’ If we can clean up some of these little tiny details, it would stop all these bigger runs that are happening. Instead of having nine-yard runs, it would probably be a two- or a one-yard run if we would get our fits a little better."

    On defense, the Dolphins are having an issue they had some problems with last year. Some unnamed defensive linemen are freelancing.

    "We had a rough go this last game, for sure," Gase said. "We’ve got to clean a lot of things up. It just seems like one person is taking their turn. It’s a new guy every play and we just have to kind of get back to basics and we have to get back to some of our fundamentals of being very gap sound (and) making sure everybody’s doing their job.

    "We can’t have anybody freelancing. That’s a bad mix for a defense as far as if one guy is off in his zone, it kind of throws the linebackers off. Now all of a sudden our fits are wrong and that’s when you’re getting these 8-, 10-, 12-yard runs. The biggest thing, at least in my experience, is when you play a defense that is tough to run the ball against – they’re very sound, they tackle well – and really it’s that group, that seven or eight guys that are working together to make sure that everybody is doing their job correctly." "
     
  20. Tone_E

    Tone_E Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    It all starts with stopping the run. We've allowed 12 10+ yard runs, currently worst in the NFL. They've come at untimely moments as well. Set up 3rd and long and let our DL pressure the QB.
     
  21. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    [​IMG]

    I only hope you can talk like Aaron Paul on those Mazda voice-overs.
     
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  22. Ohio Fanatic

    Ohio Fanatic Twuaddle or bust Club Member

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    I think it is both, but just superficially, it seems like even when the DTs penetrate, the ends don't close down.
     
  23. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    if you have Jones and SUH both free lancing that can't be good.
     
  24. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Ronin being Ronin. Great job, dude!

    FinD…you’re proof-reading comment had me spitting my drink.


    Okay, I’m not adding much to the conversation by saying this but from afar, the overarching vibe I get is of a defense that is simply being out-classed in terms of raw talent. The players strike me as the type you’d see on a 3-13 kind of team. While the offense has potential thanks to recent picks like Landry, Parker, Drake and Tunsil I suspect this defensive roster is one of the weakest in the league. Here’s a round by round breakdown of how many selections have gone to the defensive side of the ball over the last 6 years:

    1[SUP]st[/SUP] – 1 of 6 Picks
    2[SUP]nd[/SUP] – 3 of 6 Picks
    3[SUP]rd[/SUP] – 2 of 7 Picks
    4[SUP]th[/SUP] – 3 of 6 Picks
    5[SUP]th[/SUP] – 5 of 9 Picks
    6[SUP]th[/SUP] – 1 of 5 Picks
    7[SUP]th[/SUP] – 5 of 8 Picks

    That’s 20 defensive picks out of the 47 total the team had. 43% is a pretty even split but that’s terribly misleading. Not only have 14 of those 20 come from rounds 4 thru 7, but virtually no one aside from OV (and potentially Howard) turned out to be worth much of anything.

    Ronin spoke to the lack of talent but behold just what the last 6 drafts have given the defense:


    2011 / Ireland / 6 Total Picks:
    (7[SUP]th[/SUP] – 231) Frank Kearse, DT
    (7[SUP]th[/SUP] – 235) Jimmy Wilson, DB

    2012 / Ireland / 9 Total Picks:
    (3[SUP]rd[/SUP] – 72) Olivier Vernon, DE
    (5[SUP]th[/SUP] – 155) Josh Kaddu, LB
    (7[SUP]th[/SUP] – 215) Kheeston Randall, DT

    2013 / Ireland / 9 Total Picks:
    (1[SUP]st[/SUP] – 3) Dion Jordan, DE
    (2[SUP]nd[/SUP] – 54) Jamar Taylor, DB
    (3[SUP]rd[/SUP] – 93) Will Davis, DB
    (4[SUP]th[/SUP] – 104) Jelani Jenkins, LB
    (7[SUP]th[/SUP] – 250) Don Jones, DB

    2014 / Hickey / 8 Total Picks:
    (4[SUP]th[/SUP] - 125) Walt Aikens, DB
    (5[SUP]th[/SUP] - 171) Jordan Tripp, LB
    (7[SUP]th[/SUP] – 234) Terrance Fede, DE

    2015 / Hickey-Tbaum / 7 Total Picks:
    (2[SUP]nd[/SUP] – 52) Jordan Phillips, DT
    (5[SUP]th[/SUP] – 145) Bobby McCain, DB
    (5[SUP]th[/SUP] – 150) Cedric Thompson, DB
    (5[SUP]th[/SUP] – 156) Tony Lippett, DB

    2016 / Grier-Tbaum / 8 Total Picks:
    (2[SUP]nd[/SUP] – 38) Xavien Howard, DB
    (6[SUP]th[/SUP] – 204) Jordan Lucas, DB


    It’s unthinkable but just take a moment to fathom how shockingly unimpressive that list is. Of the guys who are even playing right now most are gone and there’s not a truly great one in the bunch save from maybe OV. The few that are still here are JAGs: Jenkins, Aikens, McCain, Lippett, etc.

    Jordan Phillips and Xavien Howard are now the only “bright spots” going back 6 years! That’s 2 bloody 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] round players out of 47 total draft picks. Good God!

    Oh, but we had Reshad Jones and we signed Ndamukong Suh. P-lease. Miami has been astoundingly bad in the draft which is why we’re even talking about the FAs we are right now, a list which includes Maxwell, Alonso, Abdul-Quddus, Jones, Williams, etc.

    As far as I can tell the level of talent is a notch or two above “expansion team.”
     
  25. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

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    Tannehill needs to make his open field tackles. Period.

    Incoming Tannehill thread in 3... 2... 1...
     
  26. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    Is it just a coincidence that we see so many of the same defensive problems this team had last year? Or does it have something to do with the fact that they once again decided to hire the Bengals DB coach to fill the Defensive coordinator position? Same position coach, from the same coaching tree? I honestly don't know.

    Sometimes I think this team gets in it's own head. How often have we seen this defense put themselves in great position on 3rd down, only to give up a ridiculous play on 3rd and forever? It's like clockwork. One of those things that is making this Dolphins team harder and harder to watch. I keep hoping new coaches are going to fix these mental issues, but they persist from 1 regime to the next.
     
  27. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Well away from here
    Don't worry, we've lived through Travis' stuff. :wink2:
     
  28. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    They are last in the league against the run. They have a terrible LB unit and Jones is the only player in the secondary who should be a stater in the NFL. The DL is vastly overrated.

    The Dolphins defense has played against a QB who was injured for the entire second half of the Seattle game, yet the defense allowed Wilson to drive the Seahawks down the field in the closing minutes to win the game. Even though Wilson clearly couldn't move very well because he was injured.

    New England's second string QB did whatever he wanted to do and probably would have put up 50 points against the Dolphin defense if he had not been injured. The third string QB of the Patriots took over and secured the victory for the Patriots.

    The Browns played their third string QB and one of their starting WR's at QB and only lost the game because their kicker missed three easy field goal attempt. The defense allowed the Browns to run all over them for the majority of the game.

    There is no fixing the defense during this season. It just has too many below average players in starting positions and the backups are no better. To fix it long term, the next two or three drafts need to be geared toward taking the best defensive player available in the early rounds of the next few drafts.

    Right now the only players on the defense who should feel secure beyond this year are Jones and Suh. Every other player on the defense is replaceable and hopefully their replacements will be players who should actually be starters in the NFL.
     
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  29. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    Following up on DolphinGreg's post, the 2013 draft set this organization back 2-3 years. We traded away some key players and had 5 picks in the top 3 rounds. Minimally, that should have yielded us 2, maybe even 3 starters.

    Thats why going into this season, I still think we need one more offseason to rebuild. If Parker can stay healthy, I feel pretty good about our last two drafts.
     
  30. dWreck

    dWreck formerly dcaf

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    Looking forward to that podcast.

    Man, Jenkins regression is pretty depressing. The years of neglect on the LB unit by this FO has been borderline criminal.

    It's also equally irritating and puzzling why Maxwell isn't pressing like we all assumed they were going to have him doing.
     
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  31. Shane Falco

    Shane Falco Banned

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    Wow. Not one post about the defense being tired from being on the field too long. Nice!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  32. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Why ruin that fact? Can't we just have a thread for a serious discussion? It's time to get serious around here.
     
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  33. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    Kiko Alonso is 7th in the NFL in tackles with 30 (Reshad Jones 5th with 31)
     
  34. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    Because its actually a valid point. Its an already bad unit and you punctuate it by having an offense that can't run the ball and still struggles to convert 3rd downs you in turn make a bad situation worse.

    Off sports the 3rd worst TOP in football.....put a struggling offense and a bad defense together and you get a team that is a SOFT 1-2.
     
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  35. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    I've seen defenses get worn down before.

    But Miami's D has been bad in the first half in the last 2 games, and if anything improved in the second half.

    So I don't buy the "tired" excuse. If the D wants a rest they could force a few 3 and outs from the other team before they complain about the O going 3 and out to often.

    The Seattle game I can accept a they got worn out, but not the NE and Browns games.
     
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  36. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    It doesn't relieve them from the "bad" title. But common sense will tell you that the more 3 and outs your offense provides...the more fatigued you become.

    Again, we have 2 poor units that equal 1 bad team. People can disect it anyway they want but it is what it is.
     
  37. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    So....being tired causes guys to freelance and wreck gap assignments?
     
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  38. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    Actually...our offense isnt poor. We are 7th in the league with a 6.1 yard per play avg.
     
  39. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Common sense tells you that the defense has been bad right out of the gate in every game so far. That's not about being tired. Common sense tells you that if a defense doesn't allow long drives, they won't be on the field as long. These guys aren't tired. They're making poor decisions, and not executing their assignments.
     
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  40. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    DolphinGreg,

    See. We have one member make a harmless joke, and then the contingent I talked about, comes in and derails the thread for their tired and stupid agenda.

    This happens over and over and over. The frustration that behavior causes ends ups making things personal. Make no mistake, that contingent likes it that way too, which is why they cause this.

    You wanna fix the mains, well, there's your problem.
     
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