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Improv! Could there be chemistry developing...or even better....?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Galant, Nov 14, 2016.

  1. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Naahhh...I mean, like literally, a receiver to catch the ball. Or oline to at least make a semblance of a block.

    Literally, Wilson, like every other QB, is dependent on other players.
     
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  2. SICK

    SICK Lounge Moderator

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    Dj, are you saying Russell Wilson would have won the super bowl on the expansions Texans team?


    Which, is to say that Carr probably got a bad hand dealt to him, no?

    To say Wilson is just far and away, a great quarterback regardless, is ignoring the fact that another 10 men play on the field with him and can directly impact his game, his year, his career and his legacy. To say differently is a bit foolish.
     
  3. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    It's fun to speculate. Tannehill appears to be in the situation that Wilson was in, and everyone was so jealous of. Which makes projecting fun too.

    It's a message board, different opinions are not equal to trolling. I like DJ's posts. I am curious as to what his answers would have been. He doesn't seem to want engage though, so no biggie.

    Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk
     
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  4. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Once you say it I will move forward..lol
     
  5. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Why is Brady great every year regardless when the players around him keep changing?.. he makes the players around him better by getting the ball to them in the right position at the right time, it's what great qbs do.
     
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  6. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    thats not what I'm saying Sick, I'm saying it's relative as in you would be able to see the same player on a bad team, you would recognize the talent, you would detect the weaknesses around him easier, you would see the win loss record improve, you would see a separation of his talent relative to the talent around him.just because he's a great QB does not mean that's enough to win a champ..see Dan Marino..of course you have to reach a level of talent overall to achieve the pinnacle, but it's less if that position of QB is great.
     
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  7. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    For serious? You guys are starting up the Wilson vs Tannehill debates again? DJ is starting to come around on Tannehill , I think its time to just say Wilson is a great QB. Who knows what would have if and when ......who cares. Wilson is a great QB....Tanny is playing much better football. Now lets go beat the **** out of a rookie QB.
     
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  8. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    Of course it does. I believe Wilson is a great QB but I don't believe it would have made a difference behind the catastrophically bad OL we had here, with our defense or with the coaching that would have failed to protect him like he was at the beginning of his career. The fact is that those first two years when the Seattle defense allowed as many points as Miami's defense allowed on average, Seattle lost. For all of Wilson's greatness he couldn't carry them in those situations. The idea that he could have done so in a worse situation here is fanciful at best.
     
  9. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I'm not so sure Brady is the reason that system looks so good.
     
  10. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I don't think anyone is arguing that Tannehill is as good as Wilson.

    You've played this "just say he's great" game before...I thought we all said he was playing great? Forgive me if I don't have him in the Hall yet...there's a lot of career left to play.
     
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  11. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    DJ, I'm not messing with you. I don;'t understand your last post and I don't I understand what you want me to say.
     
  12. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    Steve Young is arguably one of the greatest QBs in the history of the game yet when he was with the Bucs most considered him a bust. Most weren't saying, "you can see how great of a player he is despite the bad team he's on". He was considered part of the problem.
     
  13. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    So we're to the point where pointing out development is trolling? Saying that the way Gase is developing Tannehill reminds me of Wilson's first couple seasons is trolling? It actually pisses me off that Gase has to basically trash four years of "development" and approach Tannehill and his development as he would a rookie. Pointing out what I think are similarities in the approach is not even close to me saying that Tannehill will see the same success as Wilson.

    If you got that from my post, it's you putting your own notions of me or the issue into my post.
     
  14. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    And what I'm saying regardless of how bad our oline was if he was here, you would of been able to decipher the talents..and build accordingly.
     
  15. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    ughhh...lol..u serious man...yeah ok Josh Daniels is a genius.
     
  16. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I repeat. Is this a serious post..,your now questioning Brady's talent..geez man..no wonder I'm going loco.
     
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  17. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Talking contradiction..
     
  18. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I just wanted you to say Russell Wilson is a great QB and not follow up with anything after.
     
  19. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    I don't see any solid basis to compare Tannehill and Wilson.

    Their team situations are totally different. They play in different conferences with very few common opponents on a year to year basis. They are different types of QB, ones a scrambler the other is a pocket passer. The coaching situation has been totally different, although Gase and Carrol may prove to be similar.

    There is no way to confidently state what would have happened if they swapped situations. Not many people would argue against the proposition that Wilson had a better starting situation than Tannehill. Even now both teams have different strengths and weaknesses making cross team comparisons tough.

    I'm happy to compare Tannehill to guys like Luck or Smith or Carr where there are enough common points to make some ballpark comparisons. But Wilson and Tannehill are on completely different planets.
     
  20. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    They still play in the same era. I simply don't see how any realistic adjustment of RW's stats would pull them down to those of Tannehill. RW is putting up elite numbers even after adjusting for differences in era while Tannehill has been mostly average.

    So unless there's real clear evidence differences in surrounding factors are mostly responsible for such a huge difference in performance, I have to default to saying most of the difference probably lies in the QB's abilities themselves.

    But of course you're right that there's no way to know.
     
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  21. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    I would take Wilson over Thill in a straight up trade in a heartbeat. Which says it all.
     
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  22. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    I agree with the proposition that Wilson's production is significantly better than Tannehill's and it is large enough that people should confidently say Wilson is better than Tannehill by a comfortable margin.

    It's more that their situations are so different that it's impossible to project what Wilson or Tannehill would have done if they had been drafted by each other's team in 2012, other than to say in a general sense that Wilson would have superior relative performance.
     
  23. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Personally I think it's a fool's errand to try to answer that question for any two QB's that never played for the same coach. One can adjust for all kinds of things, from different divisions (you've done that) to different running games to different amounts of time the QB has to throw, etc.. That's same team, same coach except for what you adjust for.

    But adjusting for different coaches? That one I think is currently beyond our ability, in football at least. So.. I don't really think there's much of a data-based argument one could use to project how Luck would've done in Tannehill's situation (i.e. drafted by the Dolphins with our coaches) or vice vera, or how any two QB's that never played for the same coach would've done if drafted by the other team.
     
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  24. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    There is enough stuff around the Patriots to seriously question their accomplishments. Cassell won 11 games with them, for crying out loud.

    Yes, I'm questioning that a sixth round pick miraculously superceded all expectations, to be in the conversation of GOAT...the cheating immediately springs to mind.

    I'm not contradicting anything. If Wilson retired after this season, he would not make the Hall.
     
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  25. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I wasn't referring to you in this thread. I'm just so tired of the same people starting the same hypothetical arguments about Brady, Luck, Brees or Wilson for the 10,000th time.

    You know what it reminds me of- little children running around on Halloween saying, "I'm Batman!" Or "I'm a Ninja Turtle!" Well, guess what- Ryan Tannehill is not doing that. He's trying to be Ryan Tannehill. And there's no reason every single thread on this site has to be hijacked with the same conversation.
     
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  26. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    not even gonna go there with Brady..if you can't see that over all this time then ok.
     
  27. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Some folks need to address the right side...folks who have been backing him are the folks that are bringing up the comparisons to luck Wilson etc.
     
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  28. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    You could say the same for Joe Montana, which many consider GOAT. Guy was drafted with the last pick in the 3rd round (with 3 QB's taken in round 1 in that 1979 draft). Clearly superceded all expectations. Cheating too?
     
  29. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    The Pats have been accused multiple times and caught cheating twice.

    Youd think a stat guy, would stop ignoring those numbers....

    Also, Montana had the benefit of playing in a revolutionary offense.
     
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  30. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Right.. but Belichick isn't a great coach.

    Look, regardless of your response, resnor's logic is totally flawed. It doesn't matter what round a QB was taken in. It's very hard to predict how good a QB will be in the NFL which is why you have so many 1st round busts. Even in recent history, who ever (except a few.. who aren't consistently correct either) expected Russell Wilson to be by far the best of the 2012 draft?
     
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  31. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    You're still ignoring the cheating.

    Resnor's point is that when you have a low round QB & a failed HC & multiple accusations and proof of cheating, then to just out and out act like the QB is great and the coach is great....is , well, stupid.
     
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  32. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Well.. Jerry Rice admitted to cheating by using stickum on his gloves:
    http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/02/07/jerry-rice-admits-to-cheating-says-everyone-did-it/

    And Montana not only explicitly says the cheating allegations against Brady take nothing away from how great he is, but he himself admits his OL cheated by spraying silicone on their shirts:
    http://itiswhatitis.weei.com/sports...15/06/06/joe-montana-finds-deflategate-funny/

    Cheating is pretty widespread.
     
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  33. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    So I'm clear.....

    Res says Brady cheats and that plays a huge part in the perception of his greatness. You counter that by bringing up Montana.

    Then....and this is the part that's funny....you then show how Montana and his top receiver and his line also cheated their way to greatness....and you think you just disproved res' point?

    Like I said....funny.
     
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  34. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    It would be funny if that was the point I was trying to make. As I made clear in my first rebuttal to you (post #74) the flaw in resnor's logic is saying it has anything to do with Brady being a 6th round pick. That Brady was taken low is irrelevant because it's too difficult to predict who'll succeed in the NFL.
     
  35. Bumrush

    Bumrush Stable Genius Club Member

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    Anyone arguing against the greatness of Brady and Belichick is ridiculous. Did the Pats cheat after the 2001 season when they won the Super Bowl, after starting 1-3 under Bledsoe? Did Bellicheck implement his nefarious strategy then?

    They are the greatest dynasty in NFL history. Period. Brady is a top 5 QB of all time. Period.

    There is no argument that can be made. Teams cheat. Players cheat. Doesn't take away from their greatness. They will probably be in the Super Bowl this season too. They've won with subpar WR's, bench warmers and have installed a system that we can only dream of. Gase starts to maximize the roster and all of a sudden we get a crumb of what the Pats have done for 15 years. I'll take the Patriot way down here in Miami all day every day and twice on Sundays, even if it involves shady strategies.
     
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  36. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    BOT..

    Brethren is strong in the dolphin locker room, listen to Andre branchs interview at the dolphin website.
     
  37. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    You don;'t understand res' point about Brady being a 6th round pick. I explained it to you. You ignored it and in the process proved his point. Good job.
     
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  38. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Yeah, no.

    They've been accused and caught multiple times. You don't get to dismiss it.
     
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  39. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Like I said.. cheating is widespread. Don't think that it's only teams that have won SB's with low round pick QB's that cheat. Which is why getting picked low doesn't matter.

    Anyway, for those who understand that logic I think my example with Montana is a good one.
     
  40. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    What I would like to know, is what type of cheating are they doing that makes QBing easier?

    You still have to make the reads, you still have to make the throws, you can't cheat the ball into a receivers hands.

    Vidoegate, it's not illegal to steal signals, it's just illegal to tape them, so you still have people writing down the signals, taping just makes it a little easier, but the same things are still going on.

    Deflategate, there is not one shred of actual evidence that says an 11lb filled ball is better than a 12lb filled ball, and there was none of it until at the very least 2007, and there has been none of it since deflategate, does Brady look like a different QB?

    Now because of these 2 minor infractions, there is all this ambiguous cheating going on supposedly, but obviously, no one can point to anything, especially not for a QB to become a HoFer.

    Have the Pats cheated, yes, did that cheating make Brady a HoFer, impossible.
     
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