1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

I think Vance Jospeh is over his head

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Dorfdad, Dec 24, 2016.

  1. cdz12250

    cdz12250 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    10,265
    7,907
    113
    Nov 28, 2007
    Coconut Grove
    If you coach your Aunt Matilda to perfection and put in the best possible scheme for her, don't be surprised if when you put her out there, she still gets run over.

    The people we have out there at this time, no offense to these kids who are trying their best and have a lot of heart, are the NFL equivalent of your Aunt Matilda. You can't coach ability.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
     
    resnor and danmarino like this.
  2. evo8904

    evo8904 Active Member

    180
    52
    28
    Dec 31, 2015
    Tampa, FL
    The scheme should have been adjusted to fit the talent level. The vast majority of people know that when something is broken, you don't keep using it. VJ didn't adjust the scheme because he doesn't know anything else. He is nothing more that a position coach. Players missing assignments and/or not in the right position, that is on the coach. Lack of coaching in practice.

    I can't wait to hear the VJ excuses next year.
     
  3. keypusher

    keypusher Well-Known Member

    1,351
    448
    83
    Nov 29, 2007
    What scheme would have worked with our players?
     
    resnor and SICK like this.
  4. cdz12250

    cdz12250 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    10,265
    7,907
    113
    Nov 28, 2007
    Coconut Grove
    Put the slowest, least athletic kid in the class in, try and fit the scheme to the talent level, and see how it works out. More often than not, the kid isn't where he's supposed to be because he can't get there in time. People need to be physically able to execute their assignments in football. But I'm nobody. Let's see if NFL GMs think that he's just a position coach.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
     
    resnor, adamprez2003 and gunn34 like this.
  5. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    31,608
    55,630
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    The scheme that Vance Joseph installed is completely different from what you would expect when he was hired, and is one of the singular most dramatic examples of someone changing what they've typically done(and breaking from their influences) to fit the talent on the team.

    Everything thought when he was hired he'd be running something along the line of Wade Phillips defense, or what the Bengals did- no one had any idea that the Dolphins defensive scheme would look like what it is now. Not only is it different from what is expected, it's also pretty clearly different from what the team started the season with- Joseph changed both the coverage shells and blitz structures pretty remarkably from the first part of the season.

    Name any starting player you want, and there's a pretty clear explanation for where they are and why what they did fits the defensive scheme. Give it a shot.
     
  6. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

    3,040
    2,485
    113
    Nov 11, 2016
    This scheme is only beneficial to our defensive ends. We dont have the linebackers for it even when we had misi and jenkins healthy our linebackers are not stud linebackers who you can rely on to run a linebacker dependant defensive scheme.

    Sent from my F3111 using Tapatalk
     
  7. evo8904

    evo8904 Active Member

    180
    52
    28
    Dec 31, 2015
    Tampa, FL
    So, to you, 30th in the league of 32 teams is remarkable.....lmfao!!!

    VJ's defense won't crack into the top 25 next year or the year after that. It's unfortunate and we got a major upgrade in Gase but downgrade with VJ.
     
  8. gunn34

    gunn34 I miss Don & Dan

    21,755
    3,475
    113
    Jan 5, 2008
    Oviedo FL
    We have to have better talent at LB.
     
    resnor likes this.
  9. evo8904

    evo8904 Active Member

    180
    52
    28
    Dec 31, 2015
    Tampa, FL
    Hopefully we make some moves in the offseason.
     
  10. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    31,608
    55,630
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    That's not true either- the scheme has certainly been beneficial to Kiko Alonso, who has had a career renaissance- he's turned into a good, aggressive 1-gap linebacker, and the spacing of the defensive front has been useful in that it makes him a moving target and more difficult for blockers to hit on the second level. As for the rest of the linebackers, you're down to backups- what exactly scheme do they fit better?

    It's quite good for the defensive tackles, too- I think you could put Suh in pretty much any scheme, but it absolutely has been beneficial to Jordan Phillips and Earl Mitchell. Phillips especially- playing him as a 2-technique in this defense basically allows him to play up to his physical strengths and ignore some of his technical shortcomings in the same way it did Albert Haynesworth, who was not a good player at all in re: to keeping gap integrity.

    I don't agree that the scheme is inherently beneficial to the defensive ends, either- it's actually asking a lot of them. They're not freed up to simply pin their ears back and rush like people seem to think- they are on an island in terms of shutting down outside run plays in a way that isn't nearly as common in a lot of schemes.
     
  11. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    31,608
    55,630
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    So what you're telling me is you don't actually know nearly enough to back up what you're talking about when someone calls on it, so you're doing comic-book style super villain banter instead?

    What do you know about the scheme? Tell me what's going wrong here.
     
  12. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

    3,087
    2,038
    113
    Jul 27, 2013
    Yeah, I've been saying this for a while, he is NOT a true MLB, imo he'd be best used as a blitzing LB, he has speed and athleticism, but that's about it, instincts are poor, always takes bad angles, doesn't attack the LOS, and gets wiped by blocks.

    He is a huge reason we are so bad vs the run.

    But he makes up for that by not covering well.

    Lol, a little John McKay humor.
     
    Colmax and SICK like this.
  13. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

    3,040
    2,485
    113
    Nov 11, 2016
    You are wrong. Bottom line is the wide 9 is a linebacker dependant scheme and we never had the linebacker talent for it. To effectively run a wide nine defense you need stud linebackers who have the size and strength to take on lineman and fill the gaps against the run while at the same time having the speed and agility to run with recievers in coverage. Jelani Jenkins, Koa Misi, and Kiko Alonso are not stud linebackers. Jenkins is too small to fill gaps and stuff the run, misi is too slow and not athletic enough in coverage, Kiko is the best of the three but even he is not great.

    We would have been better off running a more traditional 4-3 defense which wouldn't put so much pressure on a weak linebacker core.

    Sent from my F3111 using Tapatalk
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2017
  14. Surfs Up 99

    Surfs Up 99 Team Flores & Team Tua

    1,950
    1,785
    113
    May 5, 2016
    Not related to anything in particular such as VJ possibly getting HC interviews, but my gut is telling me VJ won't be back next year. Not sure why, but the feeling is very strong. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.
     
  15. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    31,608
    55,630
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    You might wanna go look at the history of linebackers who have played in the scheme. There aren't a lot of guys who are phenomenal examples of size and athletic ability. It's mostly undersized, faster guys who struggle when asked to take on blocks, and the exceptions to that aren't uber athletes- it's typically guys like Brandon Spikes.

    They're pretty standard linebackers that you would see in aggressive 1-gap fronts regardless of the specifics of the alignment- be it 4-3, 3-4, etc. Widening the ends doesn't put any special stresses on them- they're not responsible for more space, or inherently more susceptible to being blocked- they're still lining up behind defensive linemen predominantly rather than over uncovered offensive linemen.

    It's also worth noting that it absolutely makes their lives easier in some regards- the DEs playing wide like they do allows them to be more aggressive going downhill, as well as kills a lot of play action passes that stretch the defense horizontally.
     
    resnor likes this.
  16. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

    3,040
    2,485
    113
    Nov 11, 2016
    That's bull****, according to you there are no drawbacks to the wide nine it is better for everybody no? It is a known fact that the wide nine puts added pressure on the linebackers, and therefore you need good linebackers in order to have a chance at being successful with it. Not that I even like the idea of the wide nine anyway I would never run it even with good linebackers I think it is a stupid high risk vs. Marginal reward type scheme which should only be used situationally on obvious passing downs if ever.


    Sent from my F3111 using Tapatalk
     
  17. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    31,608
    55,630
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    No, there are absolutely drawbacks- they just aren't what you made up in your head. I'm not really even a huge fan of the scheme, I just understand how it works and I respect the circumstances and decision making process that ended up with the Dolphins running it.

    If the scheme is harder on anyone, it's the DEs and Safeties. Which gives you insight on why the Dolphins went 4-deep on DEs(and adding two with experience in the scheme) and signed a safety with experience in the scheme day 1 of free agency.
     
    brandon27 and resnor like this.
  18. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

    7,760
    3,486
    113
    Sep 4, 2010
    Maui, Hawaii
    There is no scheme to cover lack of talent. The Dolphins right now have players starting on defense who wouldn't make the roster as backups on most of the rosters in the NFL.

    Blaming a coach for the fact he is stuck starting 2 rookie CB's, two backup safeties and the worst LB
    Corp in the entire NFL is ridiculous. This was a below average defense when they had all their starters because they have a severe lack of talent on the defensive side of the ball.

    With more than half their starters on injured reserve, this is an awful defense and there isn't now or has there ever been, a DC in the NFL who could create a scheme to make this defense any better than it is now.

    I have no idea if VJ will turn out to a a solid DC or not if he remains in Miami. But judging him based on the limited talent he was given to work with this year is absurd.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2017
    adamprez2003 likes this.
  19. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    31,608
    55,630
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    Meanwhile in reality all but one of the teams with head coaching vacancies has requested an interview with Vance Joseph.
     
    danmarino, adamprez2003 and brandon27 like this.
  20. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

    44,356
    22,480
    113
    Mar 22, 2008
    Baltimore has allowed 6.2 NY/A. Miami has allowed 6.1. Difference is negligible.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
     
  21. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

    44,356
    22,480
    113
    Mar 22, 2008
    Biggest disadvantage IMO is that you're asking DEs to cover more ground when pass rushing.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
     
  22. keypusher

    keypusher Well-Known Member

    1,351
    448
    83
    Nov 29, 2007
    A friend says the Broncos, Bills, Niners, Rams, and Chargers are all going to interview him. Clearly they need to spend some time on this message board.
     
    adamprez2003 likes this.
  23. evo8904

    evo8904 Active Member

    180
    52
    28
    Dec 31, 2015
    Tampa, FL
    That's great news! We should pay the Bills to take him....guaranteed 2 wins for us next year.
     
  24. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

    1,385
    560
    113
    Oct 11, 2013
    Everybody knew he would get lots of interviews. He will get 5 or 6 next year too. And another 5 or 6 the year after....
     
  25. Lloyd Heilbrunn

    Lloyd Heilbrunn Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    9,580
    17,698
    113
    Sep 13, 2011
    Jupiter, Fl.
    "Because of injuries, Miami is asking some defensive players to do more than anyone planned. There was a goal-line stand in the fourth quarter on Sunday in which four of the 11 Dolphins defensive players were Ndamukong Suh, Kiko Alonso, Earl Mitchell and Jordan Phillips. And the seven other players might not have been in on the field in this situation at the start of this season. This is not to disparage their legitimacy as NFL players, or to criticize their effort. But I noticed the other seven players were: Terrence Fede, Nick Williams, Jason Jones, Donald Butler, Neville Hewitt, Spencer Paysinger and Michael Thomas. Miami’s depth has been stretched more than would have been imagined. Two of those players were claimed off waivers. Three of those players are known primarily for their very strong special teams play. Defensive coordinator Vance Joseph tried so many different formations and coverage schemes on Sunday, but it was nearly impossible to compensate for the absence of injured players like Reshad Jones, Isa Abdul-Quddus, Byron Maxwell, Jelani Jenkins, Koa Misi and the disappointment of benched free agent signee Mario Williams. Oh, and in case you forgot, LeGarrette Blount scored on that play, a 1-yard run to give the Patriots a 35-14 lead."

    http://dailydolphin.blog.palmbeachp...-england-patriots-at-miami-dolphins-a-review/

    So, in short, they had 3 starters playing in that situation.
     
    resnor likes this.
  26. evo8904

    evo8904 Active Member

    180
    52
    28
    Dec 31, 2015
    Tampa, FL
    What is your excuse going to be next year when they are ranked in the bottom of the league on defense again?
     
  27. Lloyd Heilbrunn

    Lloyd Heilbrunn Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    9,580
    17,698
    113
    Sep 13, 2011
    Jupiter, Fl.
    I'll let you be the one to fantasize about next year while ignoring the realities this year, thanks.
     
    resnor likes this.
  28. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,327
    9,874
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    So, I guess the question is, how high SHOULD the defense be ranked with like, three starters on defense? I mean, backups are backups for a reason...namely, they're not good enough to start. So, you have a defense that is almost completely comprised of backups and special teamers, and people are complaining about Vance Joseph? Gimme a break. We're lucky teams aren't routinely scoring 65+ on us.
     
  29. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    Ok fine, having only 4 of your 11 starters is an excuse. Yell and scream that all you want. Ok.....happy?

    Now, that is out of the way, please explain for us what defensive ranking would it take with our injury issues for you to be complimentary of VJ?
     
    danmarino and resnor like this.
  30. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    31,608
    55,630
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    What is your excuse for **** posting now? You've made it pretty clear you don't really have anything to contribute in support of your point.
     
    resnor likes this.
  31. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

    44,356
    22,480
    113
    Mar 22, 2008
    They are not bottom of the league in any stats that correlate with success.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
     
  32. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

    52,652
    25,565
    113
    Nov 13, 2009
    The past 4 years, our offensive line has been aunt Matilda in that scenario, minus the coaching.
     
    resnor and cdz12250 like this.
  33. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

    15,355
    20,976
    113
    Sep 4, 2014
    Well, reports are that the HC job of Denver is VJ's to lose. Maybe we should have Denver's FO look at this thread and they'll understand the fault in wanting him and look elsewhere. haha


    Joseph, 44, was the team’s second choice when they hired Gary Kubiak in 2015, according to Klis. He coached under Kubiak while with the Houston Texans alongside several coaches on Denver’s current staff.

    http://broncoswire.usatoday.com/201...ite-to-become-next-denver-broncos-head-coach/
     
  34. Lloyd Heilbrunn

    Lloyd Heilbrunn Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    9,580
    17,698
    113
    Sep 13, 2011
    Jupiter, Fl.
    Heard Pete Prisco on the radio on Joseph:

    "Bill Belichick in his DC prime could not have done a better job with that mess than Joseph has"

    Said they now have two NFL starters left on defense... Wade and Suh.
     
    Two Tacos, resnor and danmarino like this.
  35. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

    3,040
    2,485
    113
    Nov 11, 2016
    That's just wrong, when you are ranked 30th out of 32 teams it doesn't get much worse than that, and Joseph does not have a track record to bacl him up and show that this years bad performance is just do to injury. I'm just saying lets wait until the guy actually shows something in terms of coaching a top unit before you start comparing him to Belichic for christs sake. The NFL is a gossip league just becsuse vances name is floating around now doesn't mesn he has actually shown himself to be a great coach.

    Sent from my F3111 using Tapatalk
     
    adamprez2003 likes this.
  36. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

    3,040
    2,485
    113
    Nov 11, 2016
    Again, can anyone actually tell me what vance joseph has done in his career in terms of coaching an actual top unit to warrant such high praise?

    Sent from my F3111 using Tapatalk
     
    Finster likes this.
  37. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,327
    9,874
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    So...no one who dislikes Vance wants to tell us where this depleted defense should be ranked?
     
    Fin D likes this.
  38. Colmax

    Colmax Well-Known Member

    5,126
    3,241
    113
    Dec 12, 2007
    In his second year with the Texans, he coached a unit that allowed only a league-leading 52% completion percentage. They only allowed a little over 200 YPG passing over that time (third). He was with San Fran before that in the same capacity for five years. Everyone remembers how stout that defense was. Then he went to Cincy. Cincy seems always have a good secondary unit, but I don't really follow them.

    Understands that his path was a process. Highly regarded coaches give him high praise. Not just fluff stuff, either. Sometimes you can read between the lines on how coaches speak about former coordinators/position coaches. McCarthy on Philbin comes to mind.

    I don't know if this guy will succeed if given an opportunity to become a HC. But from all accounts, players and coaches alike know his worth as a coach.

    I don't know that he's ready to become a HC, but I'm not an NFL GM, either. They certainly know more about him than we do. But this doesn't smell of a Rooney Rule thing. He's well on his way to becoming a HC somewhere.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2017
    cuchulainn and resnor like this.
  39. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    Why do you think he was Denver's second choice after Kubiak for HC? Why do you think he's moved up the ranks? Do you think everyone that has promoted him is just stupid?
     
    danmarino and resnor like this.
  40. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

    3,040
    2,485
    113
    Nov 11, 2016
    If we were ranked somewhere in the lo twenties or high teens then I would say we have overachieved. As it stands now vance has not made chichen salad out of chicken****, he just made chicken**** out of chicken****.

    Sent from my F3111 using Tapatalk
     

Share This Page