When and where has the wide nine ever been successful?

And yet, Miami won 10 games. The defense was top-half of the league in points allowed until the finale against New England and we've seen the run defense be effective at times. All this with sub-par personnel. I think you have to understand that it's a rebuild and this past offseason was about the offense. If you're not capable of understanding that, then I'm not sure what to tell you.

 

That article is wrong about quite a bit

No they aren't.

That play is on the linebacker getting caught out of position and there isn't really a wide-9 reason for it.

Which is funny because teams will specifically use wide technique ends to funnel the release of the TE.

 

Imo VJ is guilty of what everyone complained about with the old regime, square peg, round hole.

The wide 9 is like the 3-4 in a way, you shouldn't run it if you don't have the horses, because both of these D's have heavy emphasis on certain positions.

Both D's need a clogger, because both D's rely on the LB play, so you need to effectively close off part of the line, more important with the 3-4, but both need it.

In a 3-4 the NT is the most crucial player, in the W9, the MLB is the most crucial player, if you don't have top notch talent in those positions, the D's will struggle.

We were missing the 3 crucial elements for this D to work, top notch MLB, space eater and above avg LB corps, it's like running a 3-4 without a true NT, with ILBs that can't stop the run and OLBs that can't set the edge.

iow, doomed to failure, and VJ's failure was trying to fit a square peg in a round hole, a top notch MLB would have made a huge difference, our stable of LBs should have forced him to shelve the W9.

It's just like if you're a 3-4 guy, you come to a team, but you have no NT, well, your implementation of the 3-4 should wait until you have one, or you are just setting them up for disappointment.

I believe VJ is aware of this now, I think his recent comments suggest that, I think he was very excited to put HIS idea of the D on the field, and justifiably so, and fell into the classic trap, "he who reaches for the stars, oft stumbles on simple straw" in his attempt to take the NFL by storm, he overlooked some fundamentals.

To put it simply, rookie mistake, nothing more, when he saw what he was working with at LB, he should have run a D that tried to protect the LBs, instead of a D that relies on LBs.

If he really is in the running for Dens HC, it's based primarily on Kubiak's recommendation, and it must be a very strong one at that.

 

Did you miss the points about the injuries and DEs not living up to reasonable expectations? There was no reason to expect Williams and Jones to be healthy and either noncontributing or not even on the team. The injuries to the LBs and secondary would have impacted any scheme.

For reference:

Last year D gave up 389 total points, 5.6 yards per play and 376 a game with opponents having a 43% 3rd down conversation rate..

This year, 380 total points, 5.6 yards per play and 382 a game, and a 36% 3rd down rate.

This year's D had far more injuries to deal with and a pretty horrible offence at the start of the year. Which was to be expected as it was also a new scheme.

The Dolphins over achieved this year. Rebuilding both offense and defense, with brand new schemes and bad to average overall talent. Then all of the injuries on the D. We had the makings of a horrible season. Yet, the result is 10 wins and playoffs? That's coaching. That's keeping players grinding and putting them in position to make impact plays.

This is year one of the rebuild, of course the depth and overall talent wasn't there to make the scheme great. It wasn't there to make any scheme great. It seems so obvious how good of a job the coaches have done that I'm having a hard time even getting where you're coming from. What did you expect from the D at the start of the season? Top 10 across the board?




Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk

 

Almost none of that is true.

No one is clogging anything in a Wide-9 front- you've got aggressive 1-gap play from the entire front. They've had some bigger guys in there(Albert Haynesworth, Marcell Dareus, Jordan Phillips), but they're there still because they're quick, explosive players. They aren't 2-gapping, or playing any other control-technique.

I'm not sure why a MLB is an especially critical player vs. other schemes. It certainly isn't something that requires a special physical profile, because you've had some very divergent players in the history of the scheme.

Nor is the OLB "setting the edges". The whole point of the scheme is that the DE does that.

 

This is kind of untrue.

Miami's defense was set up as a 4-3 prior to his arrival. He comes from a 3-4 background.

This isn't a "square peg/round hole" scenario. THAT would be if Vance tried to run a 3-4; which he didn't.

He saw an opportunity to run a particular defensive scheme from 4-3 players. It worked really well at times.

People mention the whole "TE coverage" situation. When was Miami ever good at this prior to his arrival??

The personnel matters. And the transition is smoother for those who may have run in this in the past.

Miami got to the quarterback about as good as anyone without actually blitzing all that much. That's what makes this defense really intriguing. It doesn't mean it's perfect.

Personnel dictated his position on how to run this defense.

 

It's incredible to me that you can be so remarkably self-assured while knowing just enough specifics to be dead wrong

The Dolphins ran very little in the way of base Wide-9 fronts against Pittsburgh. They ran a bunch of Under fronts and other standard 4-3 stuff. How is it you didn't catch them following your expert advice?

 

What run came against a Wide-9 formation?

26 yards vs. Standard Nickel alignment that Bell bounces outside
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-...throws-two-defenders-to-ground-on-26-yard-run

26 yards vs. a Jumbo defensive packages
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-...405/Le-Veon-Bell-fights-26-yards-to-goal-line

Standard Nickel alignment through the middle of the defense
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-...Bell-shows-ridiculous-patience-on-15-yard-run

And I'm saying no, you absolutely don't and stop acting like you do.

 

You said this:

The plays I selected were the big runs.

The DE takes on the pull block from the backside Guard and Bell bounces it outside of that. It's a Wide-9 alignment, but the problem is most certainly not unique or more acute because of the front- Branch needs to do a better job beating the block on the pulling Guard, and the safety fills the run play incorrectly.

So where are most of the big runs here, and why was the Wide-9 at fault?

 

Let's pretend you're dead on. If he changed this wide-9 pre-snap, we still got beat up on defense. Why?

 

Again, you're working backwards from a premise and it really doesn't matter what the evidence is, you're going to try and make it work in your own ham-fisted way. Vance Joseph sticking with the scheme, but also adjusting it and doing something difference is bad- and it doesn't really matter that you can't identify what is what.

Ironically enough...

They've been running under fronts as a change of pace the entire season. It's not at all new, or something that was thrown in here at the last minute for the Pittsburgh game.

Seriously stop posting and do your due diligence to have an informed opinion.

 

Hasn't nickel basically been our base defense all year?

 

I mean technically it's most everyone's base defense at this point. But either way that sort of bring up the point that a lot of the league is using Wide-9 principles in their Nickel defense regardless of base.

 

I forgot, what defensive package do you run to account for your entire starting secondary being injured and a lack of talent at LB?

 

Of all the failing from today's game...it was the offensive turnovers that deserve the biggest blame for the loss.

 

The 3rd video you can't tell what form they are in, but they are in the W9 in the first 2 clips.

All you need to be in W9 is a DE lined up out in the 9 tech, both the first 2 clips are W9, both clips show angles from directly behind QB, and it's quite easy to see DEs lined up in the 9 tech.

In the first clip, both DEs are lined up W9 nickel, in the 2nd clip, they are running a W9 over, with Wake lined up at 10 tech.

 

Lining a player up in a 9-technique isn't a Wide-9 front. It's a specific set of rules in re: to down, distance, and offensive alignment.

It's not a wide-9 front if you have a DE shading or covering an offensive linemen.

 

Sorry, but that isn't true, all you need is a DE lined up in the 9 tech, that is why they call it the WIDE NINE, because you have at least 1 DE lined up out WIDE in the NINE technique.

The purpose is to spread the D line out, and give the DEs more room to operate.

The 1st clip is flat out W9, both DEs are lined up in the 9, the 2nd clip is a 9 over, Branch over the LT and Wake over the 2nd TE on the right side, in the 10 or 11 tech, so same spread D line in an over front, the W9 over.

W9 has nothing to do with down and distance etc, it has to do with D line alignment, that would be like saying the 3-4 is a set of rules for down and distance etc, no, if you have a 3 man front, you're in the 3-4, just like if you have a DE in the 9 tech or wider, you're in the W9.

 

Again, no- the purpose is to make sure that both defensive ends are consistently in a position to play as "force" defenders rather than "spill" defenders in the run game.

Andre Branch is most certainly not lined up at a 9-technique.

If both guys aren't lined up as 9-techniques in a Nickel package with no attached Tight Ends, it's a pretty stock-standard Nickel alignment.

Wake isn't even on the field. It's a goddamned Bear front- you've got three defensive tackles(Suh, Phillips, and Williams) over the interior 3 linemen, and Donald Butler playing OLB on the weak side of the formation.

There are rules to the DL alignment that make sure you're keeping both DEs as "Force" players and wide in their gaps. If you're not doing that, it isn't really a wide-9.

 

Dude, the 1st clip both guys are in the 9, ANYONE can stop that clip just before the snap and see Wake and Branch well outside the Ts, in the 9, no if's ands or buts' about it, it's right there in living color for ANYONE to see.

The second clip is kind of a bear front, a 4-3 over front, with 4 down lineman and a standing LB at the line, but the LB is on the line on the weak side, not the strong side, which is what you would normally associate with the "bear" front, but it's a variation.

However, they are lined up in that over front with W9 alignment, which means it's an 11 front, Butler WLB, who is lined up very far outside the LT is in the 11 tech, Branch(not Wake, my mistake) is lined up over the 4th man out from C at LDE, 11 tech.

Williams RDE and Suh LDT are symmetrically aligned also, both in 5(over the Ts), but they are facing the Gs, and Phillips RDT in lined up in 0.

Under/over fronts are a stretched out 4-3 front, which ends up at a 9 front, a W9 stretched out ends up at an 11 front, because all a W9 is, is a stretched out 4-3.

It's just that simple, you are trying to add down and distance, O alignment and whether or not there are TEs, and mentioned something about 3 DTs, believe me when I tell you, none of that matters, the W9 is based solely on stretching out a 4 man front, period, if your DEs are well outside the Ts, you are in the W9, end of story.