Being a terrible professional football player is an exposure to public humiliation in a way that is unique in how raw, inescapable, and not at all mitigated it is. He's sitting there and getting his *** clearly kicked on national live TV week in and week out with everyone he knows and loves watching it, and really there's no one to meaningfully excuse or explain it. There's really not a whole hell of a lot you can compare that to in terms of vulnerability and pressure. Even for the money going out there week after week and exposing yourself to that is a hell of a thing- and that's for someone who doesn't have the psychological issues that Martin had. Meanwhile many of the people angry about Martin can't properly cope with someone saying that their brain is entirely smooth on an internet message board about football. Or they dip out on a thread when people ask them what they've done in their lives to compare.
Still nothing "brave" about any of that. I'd happily get on national TV and let someone kick my *** for millions of dollars. Not a whole lot you can compare that too in terms of vulnerability and pressure? lol...Wrong. And Martin never got his *** kicked. He just wasn't good enough, mentally, for the game. Yes, a game that children play. He's a weak minded coward.
Nobody can discount his mental illness, but I think calling him brave is a far stretch. He could've handled it 1 million different ways, but he decided to disappear then explain his issues through the media. If you want it out of the situation that's fine, many ways to get out of it and get a fresh start. What he did was not one of them. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I have to say I was wrong- in a world full of people doing hard things, it's remarkable to see someone who has the bravery to stand up and claim anonymously on the internet that they would be willing to do these things too. I'm struck by the beauty of your heroics.
1. Martin was insane. He already tried to kill himself and was in a hospital room the day of the accusations. 2. Philbin wanted Incognito cut after the sexual assault incident which was denied by Ireland. Philbin wanted Martin replaced with Brandon Albert which was denied by Ireland. Philbin said he didn't believe he had a capable left tackle on the team which was ignored by Ireland. If it were up to Philbin Martin would have been a reserve player at most. Think about this: as bad as the Seahawks o-line is 3 of our starters from last season didn't even get a sniff from them after being cut. And they weren't even as bad as Martin or Columbo. 3. I don't have the link but at a later date it was reported that Incognito was about to sign an extension and was celebrating days before the Martin accusations. In my opinion, first of all he was a terrible player that even Harbaugh couldn't salvage, but also Martin couldn't deal with life in the NFL, and especially big personalities like Incognito. When he heard Incognito would be around much longer than he hoped he snapped, probably thought about or tried to kill himself again. He knew he couldn't go back to the Dolphins, it was either them or him. Instead of just quitting and getting nothing he went for a cash grab, which may or may not have been his idea. Martin was loony tunes and a product of Ireland drafting for measurables instead of drafting competitors, like what the Seahawks or Patriots prioritize. You could say it wouldn't have happened with better coaching, which is probably true, but if Philbin had more say over the roster it wouldn't have happened either. This potential scenario is exactly why Fisher turned us down and we were left with Philbin as one of the only people that would take the job.
Well no, many people do loudly and frequently discount his mental illness. That's almost a majority of what occurs in this discussion. He doesn't have anxiety or depression- he's just a *****. I think you're wildly overestimating the amount of options Martin had, and the control he had over the situation at a certain point. He stepped away from the team when he felt like he couldn't handle it- which is totally appropriate for someone who has anxiety and depression issues, as inconvenient as it is to the football team. From there, how much responsibility does he have for this turning into a huge media ordeal? Not nearly as much as I think you're suggesting. Meanwhile, again, the conspiracy theories that were the backbone of this thing did not pan out- The decisions that Jonathan Martin made during the process were entirely to his own detriment. He did not benefit for any fashion other than getting out of a bad situation for him.
Not as remarkable as someone who has obviously never done a brave thing claiming that playing football, for millions of dollars, is "brave". lol I never called what I said I'd do as "brave. Because it's not. As for my life, well, let's just say my experiences wouldn't allow me to think playing football is brave in any way, shape, or form.
He should have just retired then. The entire "I'm being bullied" thing was absurd. That's why he's a coward.
Ah, right. If Martin only retired abruptly in the middle of the season, everyone would have escaped all those awkward questions and media interest about the whole ordeal. It was only honorable for Martin to fall on his sword and make sure no one questioned if it was actually OK to call someone a "half-n*****" or anything like that.
Yep. Retiring and saying that his heart wasn't into the game would have been the right thing to do. And give me a break, Martin said the same types of things to Incognito. Men, especially alpha men, razz each other all the time. Now, I realize that in today's PC world it's frowned upon to be a man, but in the real world men will be men. Martin couldn't handle being a man.
You would have avoided absolutely no aspect of this whole situation. Try again Again, this is the crisis in masculinity I'm talking about. Men don't know how to be men, so they've basically redefined it into something that's less about honor and integrity and more about excusing a brain-damaged extended adolescence. Richie Incognito isnt a man, much less some icon of masculinity he's a dumb man child. He's lucked into the one field that he could be halfway competent at besides maybe being a bouncer or a ditch digger. The funny thing about it is that he's exactly what you would expect looking at him- it's like if you took the head of Sam the Hobbit and stuck it on the body of some Mad Max villain.
NFL players retire early all the time. It's no big deal. Unless you're a coward and need to make up an excuse. I never called Richie anything other than innocent of what Martin claimed. Your obvious insecurity about anything "manly" is telling and explains your inferiority complex. The only crisis in masculinity lies at the hands of people who are trying to change the definition of a man. Honor and integrity, at least to me, are human traits and not just men traits. Men are different than women, however. The PC culture is trying to deny that very basic and provable fact. And in doing so are trying to feminize men. Also, there is nothing wrong with being a bouncer or ditch digger. However, Richie has excelled at being an NFL lineman. Regardless of his off the field exploits. Saying that, however, if the sexual assault allegations are true, he should have been banned from the NFL. And let me just say before I start getting false accusations. If I catch any of my 4 (soon to be 5) children bullying anybody I'll make sure it never happens again by taking any means necessary to stop it.
Richie is a perverted Neanderthal....but guess what? So are most NFL players. It is far from a league of extraordinary gentleman. Most are party animals who frequent strip clubs and even has "sex cruises". I'm pretty sure 90% of the league is closer to being a Richie than a Jonathon. Does any of this make it right? No. But what Martin also did was break a locker room code that has been around sports forever. You just don't handle that the way Martin did. Do I hate him for it? No....but I also would never call him courageous for it. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Hell, 99% of all men are perverted. If perverted means we talk about a woman's body etc. That doesn't mean that we grope woman or treat them with disrespect, but behind closed doors and around other men, you'd be hard pressed to find a man who doesn't talk **** about women. And the ones who don't, probably want to use the women's restroom. lol
This is not an issue about masculinity or bravery. Me, my wife and a number of our friends all joke around much worse than what happened in that locker room. Hell, in my 20's when I worked at a Red Lobster it was 10 times raunchier than anything they said to each other in that report. And those times made friendships I still have to this day. What the BullyGate issue is actually about isn't the offensiveness of the senses of humor, but the ability as people to recognize that not everyone around you feels the same way about something...and then from there deciding whether you're going to respect those people's preferences for themselves. Ritchie is a bully and he didn't really care if Martin appreciated his sense of humor or not....that is the problem. That is not manly, that is cowardly. Being brave is sacrificing for others, and Ritchie couldn't even reign in his behavior for a person he considered to be a "brother". Martin shouldn't have thicker skin because having thicker skin in the face of that kind of humor isn't really a necessary life skill. On the other side of the coin, there is nothing inherently wrong with that kind of humor either. Like everything else from religion to opinions, it just shouldn't be forced on others. And again, it's a goddamned travesty, this was a bigger issue than the drunken sexual assault at a company charity event. If non-celebrity people did that a company event they'd be dismissed from their job.
But the issue is how could Incognito know when Martin was responding in kind? I have a fairly "out there" sense of humor and realize that what I find funny may offend some people. Knowing that I tend to feel people out before I show my true sense of humor. However, if someone comes up to me and tells me a raunchy joke, and I then tell a raunchy joke back, would it be fair for them to run to the manager claiming that I "offended" them? In essence, that's what Martin did. And I agree with you about the charity event. To me that's an entirely different argument.
As a joke. I've never actually done the act and I've never said that I have done it. I mean if I'm telling a joke about a rabbi, a priest and a preacher walking into a bar, that doesn't mean I actually witnessed that happen. However, if I said started to tell you about this time I was at a bar and an actual priest, rabbi and preacher walked in, you'd have a reasonable assumption I'm telling you about something that actually happened. Surely you understand that basic difference....
Nearly every man here has told one of their buddies that they'd like to walk up to "Female A", bend her over and etc etc...
Right, but this is a different kind of environment. In lots of jobs, you have a clear hierarchy whereas in football, you have a partially clear one (players<position coaches<unit coaches<HC<etc.) but there's also the veteran player element. In sports, no matter how good you are, you are a subordinate to a vet until you overtake them in the lineup/field. As not just a veteran but a captain, it is incumbent on Ritchie to do a better job assessing things than he did. Martin was in a position to either play along and hope things improve or be shunned by the leader of his unit. He tried to play along as best he could. It obviously didn't work.
I haven't in a serious manner. I maybe said things like, "I would like to bend her over....blah, blah, blah." But I have never said anything along the lines of, "I just grab them by the ***** and they let me cause I'm....whatever". One is saying you actually did something, the other isn't. There's a difference between saying, "I'd like to kill Hitler" and 'I killed Hitler"...no?
To a degree, I agree. However, it wasn't Incognito's job to babysit Martin. Especially since Martin seemed to be just as offensive. That's my point.
What I'm talking about isn't babysitting, though. It's recognizing or even asking if the way we joke is cool or not. It's not hard or complicated. And frankly, part of a vet's job is, in fact, to babysit the younger guys actually.
I agree that veterans need to step-up. But when Martin responded to Incognito in the same way that Incognito responded to him is that not implied consent? I mean, if I tell a woman at work that I like her new hair cut and then she smacks my *** and says, "Thanks, honey!" and then the next day I give her a light *** tap am I out of line?
lol, an "alpha male"? Are you ****ing kidding me? The "alpha male" who only had the balls to start acting up and trying to put rookies in their place after the actual unquestioned leader of the unit- Jake Long- left in free agency. The "alpha male" who responded to getting pushed around by Jordan Phillips bullrushes over and over on the same drive try and pick a fight(and throw the helmet of) a smaller player. Richie Incognito isn't an "alpha male" because he says racist things, sexually assaults women, takes cheap shots, has tattoos, or any of this other ****. Hell, using the term itself is suspect on its own merits.
If you don't have the social skills to figure out that the people you're "joking" with don't like you or your jokes, that- and the consequences that come with it- are on you. You're not an innocent victim of "PC culture"- you're a moron that people find grating. The fact that we've got three separate incidents where people had- and reported- this issue tells you all you need to know.
I missed this- Do you actually think that a starter on an NFL football team is going to retire in the middle of the season, and people aren't going to start asking questions about that?
People who defend Martin are either dumb or ignorant of the situation. After Martin left the team near the end of October, Incognito repeatedly texted martin asking him to call him and if he was okay. Martin finally responded to Incognito on November 1, “Wassup man? The world’s gone crazy lol I’m good tho congrats on the win.” Incognito responded to Martin, “Thanks dude. It’s unbelievable all the attention this is getting. All that’s important is that you feel better and know we miss u dude.” Martin replied, “Yeah I’m good man. It’s insane bro but just know I don’t blame you guys at all its just the culture around football and the locker room got to me a little. Btw…never check yourself into a mental hospital.” Incognito replied, “I hear ya It’s a lot to take in I’ve checked myself in before I had to threaten to beat everyone up for them to let me out. Not fun.” Martin wrote back, “Yeah bro it was the worst. I almost snapped and started breaking s***.” “Hahahahah That’s exactly what I was feeling. The brain is a tricky thing My brain has been to far out places and back.” Martin replied, “yeah man. How you feeling? Heard you got hurt.” A little later in the day, Incognito texted Martin a picture of an article from ESPN.com titled, “Sources: NFLPA Eyes Martin Case.” Incognito followed that up with, “What’s up with this?” Martin replied, “I got nothing to do with it man I haven’t said anything to anyone.” Incognito replied, “I heard it’s all coming Ur agent?” Martin didn’t reply back to Incognito. Incognito wrote to Martin saying, “I need you buddy I’m getting killed in the media.” The next day Incognito again pleaded with Martin, “Bro can we talk? The dolphins are talking about releasing me”
A 30 year old runningback who had another in a long line of injuries and wrote a letter describing exactly why he was retiring didn't really prompt a lot of questions, no. There is no realistic scenario where Jonathan Martin is going to take his leave in the team and this doesn't come out. Even if he purposefully lied about it and tried to cover it up and fall on his own sword metaphorically(which would be a monstrously stupid thing to suggest).
There's not a thing in that suggests Martin contrived the situation- and once again, what exactly is it do you think he motivation was? It really doesn't take a lot of social intelligence to figure out why a guy getting picked on might try an ingratiate himself with the guy picking on him.
If Martin said, "My heart isn't in playing the game of football anymore", especially with how he'd been playing, no one would have batted an eye. Well, some people may have (the weak), but that would have been the "honorable" thing to do. Instead, however, he played to the emotions of bleeding hearts. I assume at the behest of his mommy. Which is very cowardly, IMO.
And yet all the evidence points to a guy who was giving as well as he took, but couldn't man up when he wanted to quit playing football so instead used an innocent guy for a way out. Anyhow, this horse is dead enough. I think Martin was a coward and he's your hero. There's just too much of a chasm between those two points of view for a compromise to be had.
This is such an insanely dumb scenario I'm almost got to be impressed you rolled this out there. I've got a tremendous amount of contempt for our local media, Joe Philbin, Stephen Ross, etc., but the idea Martin is going to retire in the middle of the season as a starter and the entire apparatus surrounding the team is going to be like "oh ok, fair enough" is just amazing to me. Once again, to what benefit? For the open and shut lawsuit that he didn't end up filing? So he could leave football and embark on a lucrative career speaking to little kids at local schools about these issues?
