No, I'm simply questioning Brady's ability to "make all the throws." Just because he has thrown all the throws, doesn't mean he's really good at them. When you say a QB can "make all the throws," agent you saying he has c the arm strength to throw the out well, and the touch and accuracy to throw the finesse ball? I'm simply saying, Brady can't "make all the throws" like a guy like Rodgers or Marino. So, using "he can make all the throws" as evidence of his greatness, is a little disingenuous, as he is not great at all the throws. Essentially, if you disregard wins, cause they're a team stat, what is Brady exceptional at, that separates him from other QBs who were great?
Are they slobbering and glad that Tom won the super bowl? That's how some of you Tom fanboys are acting.
Getting rid of the ball quickly. He processes things so fast it's like he has knowledge of the defense beforehand or has an extra person that tells him where to throw or something....
Before Cheating and Before Brady (BC BB) the Pats made the playoffs 9 times in 40 years. They were 0-2 in the Super Bowl. With PROVEN cheating and with Brady (WC WB) the Pats went to the playoffs 6 out of 7 seasons. They were 3-0 in the Super Bowl. Without cheating (that we know of and if you don't want to count the effects deflated balls had on turnover rates), the Pats went to the playoffs 8 out of 9 seasons. They were 2-2 in the Super Bowl. I touched on this in another thread. It's almost like the Pats have had two lives during the 2000's. BCC (before caught cheating) and ACC (after caught cheating). Before they were caught they were undefeated in the Super Bowl. After, they are 2-2. What all this shows me is, the Pats are a really good team. However, they aren't the greatest of all time if you take away the cheating.
Deion Sanders apparently said on NFLN yesterday now that the Colts were also cheating and stealing signals. He basically insinuated that's why Peyton Manning was always changing plays etc at the LOS, because someone apparently deciphered the signal on the sidelines and signaled that to Manning. Apparently according to Sanders it was well known by all in the NFL, and ignored. There was a story on PFF about it, but I can't seem to access it here from work.
Here's the link... http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...sanders-says-colts-stole-other-teams-signals/
If the only proof is Deion Sanders...well, let's just say I'd believe the tooth fairy was real before I believed him.
Personally, I believe it's far more than just NE, and possibly even Indy who's done this in the past. Any advantage you can get to bend around the rules is fine. Hell, there was the story of JT "stealing" the snap counts from watching TV copies of NE games so he could always get a jump to pummel Brady like he did so often. IIRC that's how it went down. So, not a direct violation of the rules in place because it was a TV copy, but bending a rule and taking advantage of the grey area around it. I'm sure like any other organization, there's tons of hidden secrets stashed away somewhere in the NFL offices, and team offices for that matter. To think every team is following the rules exactly as written is a bit naïve IMO. Some have just been more blatant about it, and it's gotten out into places the NFL and it's teams likely usually try to hide it from. It wouldn't be the first time the league covered something up. I'm looking at you, concussions and Mr. Tagliabue.
So the Patriots, the best, smartest, disciplined, well oiled, and most successful NFL franchise over the last 15 years have been the only team to have been caught? Also, the league covered up Spygate. There was a lot more to it than what they let out.
Several teams have been caught. Atlanta piping in crowd noise to disrupt the other team. Penalty. Minnesota and Carolina warming up footballs in front of a heater. Warning. 2009 Jets club member tampered with kicking footballs. He was caught red handed. No investigation into the kicker Jay Feely. Even though he's the one who benefits. Odd isn't it? http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/j...ituation-as-tom-brady-and-didnt-get-punished/ The disparity in treatment between Feely and Brady tells you, the league was targeting the Patriots. The effort was spearheaded by the former Jets official now working in the NFL. Once it got too big they just had to move forward to preserve their power, which they ultimately did.
Oh, I don't doubt that one bit. That's kind of my point. I'm sure they're not the only team to have been caught. I just think there is a chance they're the only one that got exposed while getting caught. I'm sure if the NFL could cover up something that would hurt their business they would, and just choose to handle it internally. I read this book a while back... I forget it's actual title now, but it was regarding the "unwritten code" of the game. There was actually a chapter in it about spygate. Most of the guys interviewed from the earlier years of the league basically had the opinion of... What's the big deal? We did that every week, we just didn't have video camera's because they weren't readily available, but we didn't need them. It just wouldn't surprise me if what Deion said is true. Sure, he's a whack job for the most part, but it wouldn't surprise me one bit that if they could cover something up, they would. However, if the cat gets out of the bag because people can't keep their mouths shut, they've got no choice. I just have a hard time believing they're the only team that's done something shady like that. Clearly they took it to another level with spygate though, and it appears jdang just covered some of the other issues that have taken place... I'm still of the opinion there's far more than that, and they just haven't seen the light of day.
That's called taping practice. And other forms of cheating that they have engaged in. Having more info about what the opponent is doing than they have about what you're doing certainly won't hurt his cause.
They definitely taped. The league knew teams were taping, and they sent out two letters league wide. Bill Belichick with his infinite ego figured he found a loophole because of the wording of the letter. Goodell said nope, fined, draft picks lost. But they were not alone. That doesn't absolve them of course. They were told to stop, twice, didn't, and got punished and rightfully so. Guess who else admitted to taping? Our coach, Jimmy Johnson. Now, did he tape while with the Dolphins? It would be funny if he did. He even called out specific names: http://sportsday.dallasnews.com/dallas-cowboys/archives/2008/02/jimmy-fesses-up-again.html
This to me, is a good example, and good insight into why there's a lot of football people, in the media who don't seem to care to make a big deal out of spygate. Deep down, these guys all knew it was going on in their buildings too at some point in time. NE wasn't alone in this. Now, they may have been after letters from the league went out, but it's often why you hear some of the former players who are in the media now (not the shock jock types like Shannon Sharpe etc, but guys like Wilcotts, Gannon, etc) don't make a huge deal of it. It wasn't much of a shock to them. Not because of any specific reputation to NE, but because almost everyone did it. I remember listening to Rich Gannon's rant about deflate-gate on Sirius radio, and him blasting callers about how ridiculous deflate gate was simply based on the fact that in his opinion, it would make no difference on throwing the football, and every QB instructs the equipment staff to inflate or deflate the ball, scuff the ball, and do various other things to the footballs they bring to the field on Sundays. Aaron Rodgers admitted to over inflating as well. I mean, these guys just don't care about it, because they all did something similar, and knew it was likely possible that air pressure could drop even more in the cold. Does it happen to your car tires when summer ends and winter rolls around? Because it sure as hell happens to mine unless someone is deflating my tires every fall in my driveway up here. Again, I'm not defending them here, because for the NFL to get involved, take away draft picks, issue fines, suspend players, clearly they were violating a rule or more somewhere, especially after all teams were notified to stop the practice of filming, so clearly that's a bad thing. However, to think nobody else is doing these things in the league, and likely still doing it today is just burying your head in the sand about it IMO. I'm going to dig out that book I referenced earlier and re-read the "cheating" section of it again tonight if I can find it and share some of those excerpts from the book with you guys if I can, because if I remember correctly from when I read it way back most of them basically had the mindset of... "if you aren't cheating, you aren't trying." Again, the writer of this book interviewed players, and coaches, so it's the opinion of, and first hand accounts of those who have played the game.
The Pats were doing more than just taping. They had a library of cheating that was immediately destroyed by Goodall before anyone could even see it. They were stealing game plans by paying people to look like janitors.
Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!??!?!? OMG, when did this happen????????? Next, you're going to tell me that Brady's headset stays on during in the play so a guy in the booth with a better view can tell him where to throw or when there's pressure on his blindside....
Next up.. We discuss how the Illuminati rules over the entertainment industry, how the US faked the landing on the moon and 2 Pac is still alive. Dooo Dooooo Dooooo Doooooo
Inside a room accessible only to Belichick and a few others, they found a library of scouting material containing videotapes of opponents' signals, with detailed notes matching signals to plays for many teams going back seven seasons. Among them were handwritten diagrams of the defensive signals of the Pittsburgh Steelers, including the notes used in the January 2002 AFC Championship Game won by the Patriots 24-17. Yet almost as quickly as the tapes and notes were found, they were destroyed, on Goodell's orders: League executives stomped the tapes into pieces and shredded the papers inside a Gillette Stadium conference room. It was not just the taping of other teams to learn their signals either, with former Patriots staffers claiming at times a 'low-level Patriots employee would sneak into the visiting locker room and steal the play sheet, listing the first 20 or so scripted calls for the opposing team's offense.' This practice was reportedly used so much by the Patriots that other teams would leave out fake playbooks and sheets. The information would then go to Ernie Adams, a close friend of Belichick who was employed by the team as director of football research. “Goodell didn’t want anybody to know that his gold franchise had won Super Bowls by cheating,” a senior executive whose team lost to the Patriots in a Super Bowl now says. “If that gets out, that hurts your business.” “[Bill] Belichick, almost five years after being fired by the Browns and fully aware that this was his last best shot as a head coach, placed an innovative system of cheating in the hands of his most trusted friend, [Ernie Adams].” As much as the Patriots tried to keep the circle of those who knew about the taping small, sometimes the team would add recently cut players from upcoming opponents and pay them only to help decipher signals, former Patriots staffers say. In 2005, for instance, they signed a defensive player from a team they were going to play in the upcoming season. Before that game, the player was led to a room where Adams was waiting. They closed the door, and Adams played a compilation tape that matched the signals to the plays from the player’s former team, and asked how many were accurate. “He had about 50 percent of them right,” the player says now. Several [former coaches and employees] acknowledge that during pregame warm-ups, a low-level Patriots employee would sneak into the visiting locker room and steal the play sheet, listing the first 20 or so scripted calls for the opposing team’s offense. (The practice became so notorious that some coaches put out fake play sheets for the Patriots to swipe.) … Numerous former employees say the Patriots would have someone rummage through the visiting team hotel for playbooks or scouting reports. Walsh later told investigators that he was once instructed to remove the labels and erase tapes of a Patriots practice because the team had illegally used a player on injured reserve. http://www.espn.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/13533995/split-nfl-new-england-patriots-apart
Unfotunately/gladly I'm not allowed to get political, so I won't come up with examples, but if you really believe there are not some "conspiracies" closer to the truth then certain people want us to believe, we see the world completely differently. But maybe you agree and that's why you came up exactly with these examples. People are lying daily. So every time I question something someone says, especially those who are known for being liars, I'm just negative and a doubter? That's fine, if it's your opinion, but I rather call those who are not doubters naiv.
We aren't even talking conspiracies here. Just stuff that has already been brought to light: Bryan O’Leary, author of the book Spygate: The Untold Story also added more fuel to the fire when his book was released to the public. Former backup quarterback for the Pats, Doug Flutie, claimed in the book that he uncovered something very interesting regarding Brady’s radio helmet during the 2005 season. Via the New York Post: “He was amazed that the coaches kept right on speaking to Brady past the 15-second cutoff, right up until the snap,” according to O’Leary. “The voice in Tom Brady’s helmet was explaining the exact defense he was about to face.” Considering the Patriots dominant home record in the Belichick era, this claim only infuriated people more. Since Gillette Stadium opened in 2002, the Patriots have a ridiculous 101-19 combined record in the regular season and playoffs. Does this indicate mere dominance or something a little more fishy? Also in the O’Leary book was former Patriots linebacker Ted Johnson’s claims of new-found audibles when he had no clue of them during the week of preparation. “He claimed that an hour before game time, a list of the opposing team’s audibles — the signals a QB would use at the line of scrimmage just before a snap to change the play — would sometimes appear in his locker. He had no idea where the lists came from.”
It's all situational. It would be silly to put that size of a blanket on that statement. Many things are Lies, especially in politics. But that also doesn't mean this world is not filled with ridiculous conspiracies every time it pertains to something you (people in general) do not like.
Agreed. And of course anyone can draw the line between legitimate questions and conspiracies the way he likes. Let me just say that calling something an agenda, a conspiracy or whatever is sometims a nice way to get out of an discussion for people who are lacking arguments but are in the majority. Not saying it's the case, but I defnitly would prefer to not read things like this. We disagree and that is fine. But calling it ridiculous and coming up with Iluminati is (imo) a lack of respect to what people are saying here and the way they are arguing. People can disagree but this is not the first time people tell us we are just too jealous to see the greatness of Brady/the Pats and that's why we are coming up with conspiracies, while those who see it are just open-minded enough. Maybe you are right and it's the sad truth about us. But maybe that is not the reason we think differently and in this case it's kind of disrespectful. Probably we should just agree to disagree at this point.
So no proof then. You said it wasn't just taping but also game plans Etc. Your article, which I read, didn't say a thing about their room being filled with all this other stuff.
This Flutie thing. I never really looked into it. Is there any first hand account for the allegation? From my cursory search it looks to be a 4th hand account.
I have no clue your personal stance on this. Although you just basically said anyone who believes the Pats success is due to cheating is keeping an open mind. The whole discussion has holes and lacking of any solid arguments. I guess before we get in to the assumptions that may or may not be accurate, let me explain my stance on this so you dont make the mistake of accusing me otherwise. 1.) I DO NOT think Tom Brady and the Pats 15 years of success is because they cheated. 2.) I do however think taping the Rams walk through aided them in winning the game. 3.) I do not think NE is the only team that has done questionable things to gain an advantage. 4.) I do think it is fair to say cheating has put an asterisk next to their dynasty status. 5.) I do not believe that it is reasonable to assume they are cheating every time they win a game.
I think completely different then you do but that shouldn't matter. Don't know if I said that, wasn't my attention, I probably expressed myself poorly then. It's not about who has an open mind and who doesn't. I just don't want anyone to be accused of not being open-minded just because he has a different opinion (this is no science, it always will be an opinion). And I sometimes get the feeling this is what happens when those who question the Pats success get called out as being jealous people who can't admit their greatness and have to pull conspiracies out of their a$$ to justify their opinion.
Absolutely. I'm not disputing any of it. But if you think these other teams that were doing the same thing didn't keep that stuff on hand either, you're kidding yourself. I will still refer to them as the Cheatriots as well. Again, I'm not doubting they did it. I'm not condoning it. I just don't believe it to be the only reason for their success. I also don't believe we will ever know the full story of what really went on, and what has gone on in the past. I also don't believe they are the only ones who did it. I don't believe they're the only ones still doing something underhanded if they indeed are. I do also think that some of their previous titles should definitely have an asterisk beside them in the official books. I just think if there's guys who played in the league, that don't think SOME of it is a big deal, that's either because it's not, or because everyone else was doing it too. I also believe that if the NFL could have covered it up and prevented it from hitting the media, they absolutely would have IMO. Bottom line really, it sucks that we even have to talk about it, and think about it. I'd assume if it happened the way it did with spygate, and deflategate and that Pats weren't winning, nobody would really care. Just like nobody really cares about the other "cheating" incidents with the JEts, Falcons and Vikes (i think?) as referenced above. I'm telling you though, stuff like that, even some of the things referenced in that espn article you posted, they've been going on for years and years to the 70's and such.
Thats taking one side of the spectrum and in an extreme way. Do we have certain posters who have cried conspiracy on many other topics and are now injecting that same line of thought into the Pats situation? We do. If you believe they are only good because of those incidents and you are discrediting 15 years of success because of that then thats ones opinion. If you think its fair ti assume they always cheat to win then yes, you are a conspiracy theorist to me.
The Patriots are 92-15 at home from 2001-2015. On the road they are 72-35. In the playoffs, at home they are 14-3 and away are 3-3. That means, in 15 years, the Pats lost 18 games at home.
Actually we're acknowledging greatness and showing it respect. Something you clearly are unable to do.
Perhaps the disparity was because the Jets hadn't been let off the hook for a major cheating scandal (Spygate) like the Patriots, and then caught cheating again, and failed to comply with the investigation. Perhaps that's why.
I don't think many people think that their cheating is the ONLY way they can win. I think most people believe that they are a really good team. Possibly one of the best ever. However, how much of that is due to cheating? No one really knows. As I've mentioned before, it's not jealousy. At least not for me. I can see and give credit to greatness. I've done just that in many posts. There are most certainly things that the Pats do that are great.
