1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Here's an accurate Thill article...

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Fin D, Apr 13, 2017.

  1. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,327
    9,874
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    And we're in the rabbit hole.

    Hitman, those things you've just posted have been shown to be wrong so many times, but, again, you trot them out like it's the first time they've ever seen the light of day.

    Have fun boys.
     
  2. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,327
    9,874
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    I guess I don't understand why people post, knowing it will be controversial, then get mad when people disagree.
     
    danmarino likes this.
  3. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

    3,040
    2,485
    113
    Nov 11, 2016
    Exactly what has been shown to be wrong?

    Does tannehill have as good pocket presence as marino? No. Is he as good at avoiding the rush as marino? No. Is he as good at making quick decisions and getting rid of the ball quickly? No. Does he have the lightning fast release that Marino had? No.

    All those things have contributed to tannehill taking more sacks than Marino, it has nothing to do with Marino's o-lines being better than tannehill's which talent wise they were really not.

    Sent from my F3111 using Tapatalk
     
  4. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,327
    9,874
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    The bolded is not you comparing him to Marino, it's you ****ting on Tannehill, and was what my post was referring to.
     
  5. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

    3,040
    2,485
    113
    Nov 11, 2016
    The bolded is all true, and I was comparing him to marino because OP and others are claiming that Dan's olines were so much better than Tannehill's which they really weren't. If tannehill has taken more sacks it has more to do with him not being as good at avoiding them as Dan was, not because Dan's olines were so much better.

    Sent from my F3111 using Tapatalk
     
  6. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,327
    9,874
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    Like I said, it's the rabbit hole. Every one of those things had been debated, and enough evidence has been given that it should at least keep people from repeating then as fact.

    But, you just throw them out again, as fact.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2017
  7. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

    52,652
    25,565
    113
    Nov 13, 2009
    He'd have retired midway through that second year.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    danmarino and resnor like this.
  8. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

    3,696
    3,743
    113
    Nov 29, 2007
    Let' look at the supporting cast in terms of All pro and probowls. Since the move of the probowl to before the superbowl and players becoming less willing to risk injury in the probowl the number of probowl selections per season has roughly doubled since Marino retired. I will therefore look at original pro bowl selections, not alternates.

    In Dan Marino's career his OL had 7 all pro selections and 20 first team pro bowl selection.
    0.4 all pro selections and 1.2 pro bowl selections per season.

    His WRs and TEs had 13 probowl selections and no All pros.
    0.8 pro bowl selections per season.

    Let's look at Tannehill now.
    His OL has had 0.0 all pros and 3 pro bowl selections (plus 3 alternates)
    For 0.6 pro bowl selections per season.
    His WRs and TEs have received 0 selections. In 2015 Landry was selected as a returner, not a WR and in 2016 he was an alternate.
    For 0.0 WRs or TEs selected
     
    cuchulainn and eltos_lightfoot like this.
  9. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

    3,040
    2,485
    113
    Nov 11, 2016
    So you are comparing Marino's entire career to Thills first five season? Good logic there partner. Not relevant whatsoever.

    And pro bowls is not really an accurate measure, marino made the recievers and tight ends around him better.

    Jarvis landry for examole is as good as any reciever Marino ever played with yet he hasn't made any pro bowls, if it had been marino throwing to him I guarantee he would have made a couple by now.

    It's better you look at the quality of the actual players and that is not measured by just pro bowl appearances.

    Sent from my F3111 using Tapatalk
     
  10. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    39,159
    21,798
    113
    Nov 29, 2007
    San Diego
    Fahey. Heheh.

    Cian Fahey also thinks Landry is Tavon 2.0 and we should let him walk and play Carroo.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2017
  11. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    39,159
    21,798
    113
    Nov 29, 2007
    San Diego
    So this data is saying Marino elevated his players and Tannehill hasn't.

    ;)
     
  12. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    Are you really saying Thill had better or equal WRs and OLs? Really? No one agrees with you. No one.
     
    danmarino likes this.
  13. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

    3,696
    3,743
    113
    Nov 29, 2007
    Let's look at Marno's first 5 sasons.
    OL 5 all pro selections and 8 probowls. Dwight Stevenson, Bob Keuchenberg and Ed Newman.
    Once you remove them Dan gets 2 All pro selections, both Richmond Webb and 12 probowls, 7from Richmond Webb.
    Newman and Keuchenberg were going to probowls before Dan ws drafted and Stevenson is generally regarded as one of the top 3 centers to ever play the game.
    Basically once you remove the guys who were stars already before Dan arrived and Richmond Webb who still went to probowls after leaving the Dolphins so we knowhis level of play was probowl worthy without Dan, you're left with Dan 'elevating' 5 OL selections to the probowl over 17 years.

    WRs. 6 pro bowls. Duper and Clayton. Plus former all pro Nat Moore was the 3rd WR for the first 2 or 3 years.
    When you look at later probowlers you have names like Irving Fryar and Keith Jacksom who were probowlers before they came to Miami and Ferrel Edmuds who was more a blocking TE than a star receiver.
    The only other probowls came fom Clayton's 88 and 91 seasons.
    So Marino wasn't 'elevating' receivers to the probowl, other than arguably Clayton and Duper.
     
  14. Puka-head

    Puka-head My2nd Fav team:___vs Jets Club Member

    8,605
    6,743
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    Slightly left of center
    I have taught many many management level customer service classes over the years and this is the number one lesson I try to get across. I think it applies here, to BOTH sides of this discussion. Please enjoy these words of wisdom at no charge, my gift to you.

    "Never argue with an idiot in public. The people watching won't be able to tell who's who!"

    Snap out of it ya idjits!

    You're welcome.
     
  15. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

    3,040
    2,485
    113
    Nov 11, 2016
    Kuechenbergh and newman only played one full season with marino in 84. Stephenson didn't become a pro bowler until Marino's rookie season and only played 4 seasons with Marino.

    Then you have Richmond web and nobody else on the oline making pro bowls for the rest of Danny's career yet he never failed to show his greatness.

    Tannehill had both Mike Pouncey and Brandon Albert making multiple pro bowls during his first four seasons. And he had a line last year with 4 first round picks and 3 former pro bowlers starting. Yet he still couldn't show he is among the elite QBs of the league.

    Marino even in his worst years and playing on bad teams always managed to show how great he was. Which is exactly contradictory to the BS point OP was trying to make which is that Thill hasn't been great because he has been on bad teams.

    Thill hasn't been great because he just isn't great, period. He could get better and I hope he does, he has a QB whisperer as a coach now, a great recieving core, three first rounders on then oline and a great running back to hand off to, which is more than Marino ever had yet I will bet he will not be among the top 5 QBs in the league next season even with everything lined up in his favor.

    I liked how he performed toward the end of last season and hope he continues to improve, but laying all the blame for his previous shortcomings on everybody but himself is just asinine and it is getting very old.





    Sent from my F3111 using Tapatalk
     
    jdang307 likes this.
  16. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

    3,696
    3,743
    113
    Nov 29, 2007
    Hitmon, Keith Sims disagrees with you about Richmond Webb having no one else.

    Yes Pouncey has made multiple pro-bowls. But only one as on original selectiom. Brandon Albert mas made one pro bowl in a Miami uniform, again as an alternate.
    The reason I restricted pro bowl to first choice selections is precisely because there are so many alternate nowadays that you can't compare selections to the probowl for current players with past players. Using original selection to the probowl Tannehill has had
    2012 zero (Incognito was an alternate)
    2013 Mike Pouncey (Brandon Albert made it as a Chief)
    2014 zero (Pouncey was an alternate)
    2015 Mike Pouncey (Albert was an alternate)
    2016 zero and no alternates.

    In my original count I accidentally included Jake Long's 2011 Due to confusion over the season selected and the date the game was played. (Some websites list the 2012 probowl as the probowl for the 2012 season and others list the 2012 probowl as the probowl played in 2012).

    You could have put Ray Lucas behind Dwight Stevenson in 84, 85, 86 and 87 and he would still have made All pro. He wa playing center as well as anyone has ever olayed center in those years.
     
    resnor likes this.
  17. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent Fighter of the Nightman

    8,560
    4,133
    113
    May 9, 2008
    Awesome article. Enjoyed reading it, especially since it's from an unbiased/outside source. I'm still nervous about the offensive line going into this year (it would be nice to finally fix that after watching Tannehill get killed since 2013...), but I'm feeling good that Tannehill is in year 2 of a competent offensive system, with a legit HC and OC scheming it. Not to mention, the skill positions have settled for the most part. Looking forward to seeing DeVante Parker's growth. Thomas is really the only new weapon. Thankfully, he's familiar with Gase's system already. If our O-line ever settles in, we could be looking at a Matt Ryan-esque leap.


    The Marino debate: I've always thought Marino played with sub par talent from 88-99. Marino came into the league playing for the AFC champions. Miami had talent initially and Marino excelled beyond anyone's wildest imagination, revolutionizing the passing game. After a few years, the talent on Miami deteriorated greatly. Clayton and Duper were excellent receivers for the most part, but they still had down years. That's what happens when you're 5'9 180lbs and playing against defenses who were allowed to man handle WR's. But really, after 87? You can name a few really talented players (Clayton, Duper, Webb, Sims, Fryer), but Marino never had an overall great unit, whether it be OL, RB, WR, TE (Keith Jackson for a min, until he got fat and lazy)... I've always been of the opinion that Marino did more with less than any other all-time great.

    Having said that, the Marino - Tannehill comparison's are silly. Marino is a legit top 5 QB all-time. Even if all circumstances were equal, there is no comparison between the two. The good news? Lesser QB's than Marino have won SB's (and that's a lot of QB's...). Tannehill doesn't need to be Marino. He just needs to continue elevate his game year after year as Gase's vision for the offense and team solidify. He's done that with a lesser HC coach/coaching staff than the one we have currently, which is encouraging. After a strong 2016 from RT17, there's no reason to think the arrow isn't still pointing up.
     
  18. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

    11,375
    11,392
    113
    Sep 28, 2015
    Despite the childish reasoning and word twisting by some that wreaks of insecurities on the board and off...this is actually a good article.

    I do however realize this is just another "evaluator" but I think he may have some valid points.

    Where I do get a little skeptical is his own personal evaluation of pressure and if it was avoidable. Too many variables on those plays imo to do anything other than take a good guess.

    I do like the data on wasted completions however. Although I'm not sure how he can truly make the call that a WR ran the wrong route on a given play. Does Gase CC him in the play calls?

    So yea, some holes in some of it. But for the most part I liked the article.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    Gaijin, resnor and danmarino like this.
  19. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

    15,357
    20,976
    113
    Sep 4, 2014
    "reeks"

    :chuckle:
     
    Fin-O and resnor like this.
  20. Ohio Fanatic

    Ohio Fanatic Twuaddle or bust Club Member

    32,070
    22,827
    113
    Nov 26, 2007
    Concord, MA
    Case closed....
     
    Fin D likes this.
  21. Ohio Fanatic

    Ohio Fanatic Twuaddle or bust Club Member

    32,070
    22,827
    113
    Nov 26, 2007
    Concord, MA
    ..and furthermore. No one is saying Tannehill is Marino, so comparing THill to top 3-4 QB of all time is just myopic.
    The argument is Tannehill is hovering to be included in top 10 QBs of the current league - and clearly within that set when he had an intact Oline and Ajayi. That doesn't imply he's Brady.
     
  22. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,327
    9,874
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    1. Who cares that Tannehill is not as good as Marino?
    2. The argument has never been that Tannehill isn't great because of the team around him. This argument was a response to those who claimed that great QBs have winning records and make the playoffs. We have asked, repeatedly, which great QBs had no run game, not allowed to audible, and terrible oline, and still won tons of games and did well in the playoffs. Add in the crappy coaching and the dysfunction of the team around him, and you have one of the worst situations a drafted QB could be in.

    Anyway, this is simply another case of the arguments we've been making being misconstrued.
     
  23. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    Saying we've asked "repeatedly" is an understatement.:up:

    We've asked it so much, people roll their eyes. Some even tell us we're stupid for asking. Of course, those are the people that think being an NFL QB requires the magic clutchiness-it-factor gene, that can only be whispered into the ear of a few chosen few babies by the ghost of Knute Rockne.
     
    Ohio Fanatic, resnor and danmarino like this.
  24. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

    3,040
    2,485
    113
    Nov 11, 2016
    [QUOTE="Dol-Fan Dupree, post: 2927933, member: 623".]

    1997 was not a good year for Marino. He only had 16 touchdowns and 11 interceptions. With a rating of 80, which is lower than Tannehill's lowest when he had Wallace, Hartline, and ????.

    Marion's offensive lines were some of the best of all time when it came to pass blocking.[/QUOTE]

    You actually think a reciever core of Oronde Gadsden, O. J. McDuffie and Lamar Thomas is better than Mike Wallace, Brian Hartline and Rishard Mathews? You must be joking right?

    And no marino did not have some of the best offensive lines in history except for the first couple of seasons of his career. For most of his carreer he had medioce or just above average offensive lines together with zero running game and very bad defenses yet still never failed to play great and put up winning records.


    Sent from my F3111 using Tapatalk
     
  25. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

    3,040
    2,485
    113
    Nov 11, 2016
    And I have said repeatedly that Tannehill is not a bad quarterback, I think he is an above average NFL quarterback. I just dont think he is elite or one of the best as you want to assert by blaiming his shortcomings on everybody but him.

    You think guys like Brady, Rodgers, Ryan, Brees, Manning and Marino never had to put up with recievers missing assignments? The oline not being great or not being able to audible?

    Remember when Jimmy Johnson took the audible away from marino for a while? Did marino all of a sudden become a mediocre QB because of that? No.

    That is where we don't see eye to eye. You think great QBs can't be great unless they have all of the pieces and everything working perfectly around them, and that just is not true. Truly great QBs show their greatness in spit of adverse circumstances. Tannehill has not shown that he is at that level of elite QB up to this point. That is just a fact no matter how many excuses you try to make for him.

    Sent from my F3111 using Tapatalk
     
  26. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    No, I don't think they've had to put up with it on a regular basis and the times they did deal with it, they're numbers showed it. Marino's numbers absolutely went down after JJ took away the audible.

    Thill is a Top 10 QB in the league and played that way when he had....and I repeat...a decent oline, a commitment to the run game and the ability to audible. That is a fact and it's a fact regardless of whether you agree with it, accept it, believe it, understand it, etc.

    Great QBs do not put up great numbers under the circumstances Thill had. You not agreeing with that is also irrelevant to the reality that it is true. If I am wrong, then...and I repeat....list for us the QBs that did produce on a great level with his circumstances. We have literally been asking for YEARS and not one of you has been able to provide an example. The closest was one year with Rivers, except he was allowed to audible, and his team still didn't go anywhere.
     
    resnor likes this.
  27. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,327
    9,874
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    The reality is this: when Tannehill was drafted, many on this board, many Dolphins fans in general, did not like the pick. So, from the very get go, there were people saying, "he's got bad pocket presence," or, "He throws a bad deep ball," or, "He's not a leader," etc etc. As the years have gone by, we've argued these points, yet, still, in the face of any evidence, those things keep being said. It's old, its tired, and it's not true.
     
  28. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

    40,533
    33,035
    113
    Dec 11, 2007
    You actually think a reciever core of Oronde Gadsden, O. J. McDuffie and Lamar Thomas is better than Mike Wallace, Brian Hartline and Rishard Mathews? You must be joking right?

    And no marino did not have some of the best offensive lines in history except for the first couple of seasons of his career. For most of his carreer he had medioce or just above average offensive lines together with zero running game and very bad defenses yet still never failed to play great and put up winning records.


    Sent from my F3111 using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

    Richard Mathews wasn't even used. Mike Wallace was not nearly as good as O.J. McDuffie and Gadsden was a beast that year. He had two of the best catches I have ever seen period.

    Plus, I do not think Tannehill is as good as Marino. I think Marino is one of the rare exceptions and there are only a few in the NFL. Right now the NFL has Brady and Rodgers.

    Basically, I am saying that it is good to make sound investments and work hard to be able to create the life you want and you are saying, "What about people who win the lottery?"
     
    Puka-head and resnor like this.
  29. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    39,159
    21,798
    113
    Nov 29, 2007
    San Diego
    Tannehil is also a QB that has had his two best years after two different coaches and two different OCs pulled back on what they asked Tannehill to do.

    That is a fact.
     
    Rock Sexton likes this.
  30. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    Oh, stop it.

    He was actually included in the game planning under Gase. Gase, on more than one occasion last year said he should have listened to Thill more.

    Lazor was a control freak and Gase just has to learn Thill. You are purposely misrepresenting the facts to suit your BS narrative.
     
    Ohio Fanatic, Mcduffie81 and resnor like this.
  31. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    39,159
    21,798
    113
    Nov 29, 2007
    San Diego
    I'm not misrepresenting anything.

    Philbin/Lazor - pulled back offense. Best year ever.
    Gase - pulled back responsibilities and offense. Best year ever.

    Them's the facts.
     
  32. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    No. Lazor pulled back....kind of.

    Gase had to change to adapt to Thill, it wasn't a pull back, it was a change and as I said and you're ignoring the fact Thill was allowed to be part of the actual game planning.

    You are misrepresenting and you know it. You've been doing it for years. I think you do it because you are clearly biased but also you hope that I'll snap and out some things from Club and get in trouble.
     
    resnor likes this.
  33. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,327
    9,874
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    Yet, pulling back could easily have been because other parts of the team weren't pulling their weight... which is, you know, what Gase actually said last season
     
  34. Rock Sexton

    Rock Sexton Anti-Homer

    2,553
    1,793
    113
    Mar 14, 2015
    Holy Captain Literal.
     
  35. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

    40,533
    33,035
    113
    Dec 11, 2007
    If someone says something like that, they should easily be able to find some proof. Too much hyperbole on this site.
     
  36. Rock Sexton

    Rock Sexton Anti-Homer

    2,553
    1,793
    113
    Mar 14, 2015
    Which is why the ceiling is "good" instead of "elite" right now.
     
  37. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

    11,375
    11,392
    113
    Sep 28, 2015
    So much daddy issues in these things. Accusing others of "hoping you get in trouble" really?

    Honestly, why don't we all just rejoice and stay positive that 17 will continue to thrive, regardless of WHY we all think he has.
     
    smahtaz likes this.
  38. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

    15,357
    20,976
    113
    Sep 4, 2014
    You actually think a reciever core of Oronde Gadsden, O. J. McDuffie and Lamar Thomas is better than Mike Wallace, Brian Hartline and Rishard Mathews? You must be joking right?

    And no marino did not have some of the best offensive lines in history except for the first couple of seasons of his career. For most of his carreer he had medioce or just above average offensive lines together with zero running game and very bad defenses yet still never failed to play great and put up winning records.


    Sent from my F3111 using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

    Again, bringing up Marino is just lazy and counterproductive. Marino was a top 3-5 QB to ever play the game. And again, Marino had some of the greatest pass blocking offensive lines in NFL history. Sure it helped that Marino was just very damn good, but so were they.
     
    resnor likes this.
  39. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

    15,357
    20,976
    113
    Sep 4, 2014
    Speaking of Marino, however.

    If you combined Troy Aikmen and Jim Plunkett's yards and TD's you'd still be behind Marino. And they have 5 Super Bowl wins between them. This is why equating wins and/or championships to one player is asinine.

    Plunket/Aikmen= 58,824 yards and 329 TD passes in 28 total seasons.

    Marino= 61,361 yards and 420 touchdown passes in 17 seasons.

    lol
     
    resnor likes this.
  40. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

    11,375
    11,392
    113
    Sep 28, 2015
    Aikman. HA!
     
    danmarino likes this.

Share This Page