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Went back to give Charles Harris a second look...

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by hitman8, May 1, 2017.

  1. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    As you may know I was not happy with the Charles Harris pick, but reading some of the reviews from so called draftniks praising him I started thinking maybe I missed something and overreacted so I decided to take a second detalied look at his game tape.

    After watching several games, it basically breaks down like this. When Charles Harris faced very weak competition with bad offensive lines and athletically limited tackles like georgia, west virginia or Vanderbilt he looked like a killer with his explosive first step and great spin move along with good short area quickness. However whenever he faced a decent team with a good offensive line and a tackle who was strong at the poa and not a complete stiff athletically, he was completely neutralized and looked bad.

    To me that's what separates the real players from the pretenders is how they perform against good competition.

    I think the most accurate example of how Harris will perform in the pros is his game against LSU. LSU runs a pro style offense and their tackle isnt a complete stiff as some of the other tackles harris has faced. In this game Harris was a complete non factor in his pass rush and was exposed against the run. His lack of pursuit speed and play strength was also readily apparent.

    Harris needs a lot of work if he is going to be a good player in the NFL, he needs to get stronger, he needs to improve his read and react skills and also get a lot better at holding up at the POA, setting the edge and getting off blocks.

    But one thing I think is worrisome and not fixable is his terrible pursuit speed. Everybody is quicker, faster and more athletic at the NFL level.

    Overall Harris has to be one of the most overrated players in this draft. A guy with so many clear flaws is not someone you take in the first round. He should have been a day two or day three pick if people hadn't gotten so enamored with his quick first step and spin move which is basically all he has and won't work against more athletic NFL tackles.






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    Last edited: May 1, 2017
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  2. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    We get it. You think it was a horrible pick and he will be as big a bust as Jordan was.
    Of course I would assume you probably thought Cam Wake was also a bad signing by the Dolphins because he wasn't even drafted when he came out of college and had to play in Canada for a few years before the Dolphins signed him.

    Maybe you are right about Harris but I think I will wait until I see how he develops after a few years in the league before I make a judgement on his ability as an NFL player.

    It should be noted that he didn't play football until he was in the 11th grade. He is only 22 and he is still learning the intricacies of playing the game. He was rated as a first round pick on every pre draft rankings I read. So it certainly wasn't just the Dolphins who thought he was a first round talent.

    You are certainly entitled to your opinion of Harris. I prefer at this time to give the benefit of the doubt to Gase and the coaching staff and hope that they can develop him into a player who will be a productive member of the team for several years.
     
  3. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    I don't care if the consensus view was that harris is a first round pick, your own examples of wake and dion tell you all you need to know about NFL concensus rankings. Wake went undrafted and didn't even get an invite to training camp while Dion was a concensus top 10 pick. Look how they turned out and you will understand why I give very little credit to NFL draft rankings. I am going off of what is readily apparent on tape and taking into account his quality of competition.

    I never complained about the wake signing don't know where you get that from I remember I was actually excited that we were signing this CFL star.

    And don't compare wake to Harris wake is a lot better athlete in terms of speed and power than harris is.

    The guy in this draft class that I would compare to wake is Jordan Willis, both Wake and Willis are about the same size, they both run 4.5 forties, they are both very strong, they have very similar pass rush moves and tendancies using speed and power, and they both have what is perceived to be stiff hips which is a reason why wake went undrafted and Willis fell to the third round.

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  4. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    Wake wasn't nearly as polished or refined as Harris coming out of college.

    Dion didn't fail because of his athletic ability. He had demons that no one saw...drugs
     
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  5. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    No analyst does that well in predicting how players will turn out. It's not just the "consensus" that's not a good predictor. I think what's interesting is how strongly you feel you're any different in the ability to predict success.
     
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  6. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Harris is not "polished" or "refined" in any way. He has a quick first step and a good spin move and that's it. That's not my definition of polished and refined.

    And Dion's problems didn't just have to do with drugs, even when he did play he was not very good. All he had was size and speed and was a non factor when he did play except for being able to run with tight ends.

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  7. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    He's much more polished and refined than Wake was coming out of college.

    Dion was never allowed to develop because he was either hurt or suspended due to drugs. His athletic ability was top 10 grade. His drug problem was his demise and as most drug addicts do, he fooled everybody.
     
  8. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    I hope you end up being wrong, but I can certainly see your complaints.
     
  9. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    I hope I am wrong also.

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  10. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Some argue Dion's athletic ability is the only reason he was drafted so high.
     
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  11. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I give him credit for at least watching the film.
     
  12. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    As I told him in my comment above, he is certainly entitled to his opinion. In fact he could turn out in a few years to be 100% correct in regards to Harris as an NFL player.

    I just think that the Dolphins also watched all the tape on Harris, as well as having scouts attend some of his games and they got input from coaches and other individuals before deciding to take him in the first round.

    Of course every year it appears that half the players taken in the first round never amount to much in the NFL. While this may or may not be the case with Harris, the reality is he is now a member of the Dolphins. So we can only hope for the best, because we have certainly had our share of first round flops over the last 15-20 years.
     
  13. Conuficus

    Conuficus Premium Member Luxury Box

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    So, if I have this right. You went back and found that your original thoughts were correct? Interesting.

    Did you manage to delve into an injury history etc so as to know when he was injured etc and if he was or not when looking at how he fared and different competitors?

    Just asking as that cause serious peaks and valleys in ones performance.
     
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  14. cdz12250

    cdz12250 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Common sense tells you that a front office of NFL professional talent evaluators, aided by a scouting department and many hours of film, drafted Harris for good reasons. There has to be some value to the analysis these office people and scouts do, or they wouldn't be getting paid all that money for doing it. They have to have some kind of job in mind for him using what he can do. They can be wrong, but the odds have to be more than 50-50 that they're right. I'm concerned, but I'll bet on the Crackpipe, the scouts, Gase and Grier.


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  15. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    It would be too much of a coincidence that he would have some sort of injury whenever he faced a decent offensive tackle.

    His production is very clearly a tale of who he competed against. When he played against bad tackles he looked good, when he played against decent tackles and olines he looked bad.

    Don't need secret injury reports to figure out why.

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    Last edited: May 1, 2017
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  16. CitizenSnips

    CitizenSnips hmm.

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    I think you're trying way too hard to find negatives and not taking in the big picture.

    Dismissing his quick burst, as if that's not significant, says it all. For a pass rusher, that is arguably the most important factor. It's something that can't be taught. The best ones have it, the lesser ones don't. Harris appears to have it.

    Focusing on the LSU game is odd. Heavy run team, gameplanned against Harris (they roll away from him and double several times from what I saw), and Mizzou was down early. Easiest way to nullify a pass rusher is gain the lead, run the ball and quick passes. That's what happens in that game.

    Harris was drafted for his ability on 3rd and long. If a video could be made of all of his snaps on 3rd and passing downs, boy I bet that video would be special. That's why he was drafted, it's why he'll make millions, it's why edge rusher is a premium in today's game.

    Problem is Mizzou wasnt good last year (4-8) and often didn't put the opposing offense in a position to be worried about an a premier pass rusher.

    I know it's a broken record, but if you isolate wake during games where we get run over on the ground (like this year's playoff game) he doesn't impress much either.

    But that's not why he's here, same for Harris.
     
  17. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    A good first step is important, but it's not ignore everything else and pick a guy in the first round type of important.

    The positives are he's got a good first step, good short area and lateral quickness, a very good spin move, and a good motor.

    The negatives are he has below average strength, below average size and speed and doesn't convert speed to power very well. He also has terrible recognition skills against redirection and aside from his spin move has no other noteworthy pass rush moves. He can't bullrush effectively, can't anchor or set the edge against the run, has terrible pursuit and closing speed which means even when he initially gets penetration he often lets guys get away or misses the tackle/sack.

    Overall a clearly flawed player who we should have stayed away from unless he fell to the second or third round in my opinion. We should have definitely traded down for more picks at that point rather than take a chance on a risky and flawed DE.

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    Last edited: May 1, 2017
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  18. Dolphin North

    Dolphin North Well-Known Member

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    These are my worries as well, because it is almost word for word what I read from a pretty knowledgeable friend on another board the moment he was drafted. I hope it is not true, but I worry about holding up against good competition and of course the lower body strength to anchor at POA in runs, which is a flaw fairly commonly reported by draft profiles I have read. Maybe they see something in him that they can coach. I'm sure the lack of experience was part of the equation, meaning the Dolphins probably think there is more development ahead than for most draftees.
     
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  19. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    A situational pass rusher (and not a really great one at that) is not worth a 1st round pick in my opinion.

    And comparing him to wake is not really a good comparison imo. Wake while not great against the run is not nearly as bad as Harris, wake is a lot stronger at the poa than him, and wake's pursuit and closing speed is also on another level than that of harris.

    Wake is 6'3 265 with 4.5 speed, great strength and great at converting speed to power.

    Harris is 6'3 255 with 4.8 speed, not very strong and not great at converting speed to power.

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  20. Dolphin North

    Dolphin North Well-Known Member

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    I think you have a lot of good points too and I think that is why he will be a passing downs guy and not a 3 down player in this league. Still not usually smart to go that route in the first IMO, but I think they probably plan to convert one of those DT's drafted later to a DE in order to split time with Harris. Hopefully it works though.
     
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  21. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent Fighter of the Nightman

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    I'm not as down on Harris as you, Hitman, but I definitely share some of your concerns. He is a player with numerous question marks. I would of preferred to trade down with ATL and draft Lamp. Lamp was my guy because I wanted as close to a sure thing at that point in the draft and to finally put the offensive line woes behind us. Get an extra 3rd, maybe draft a different developmental DE prospect (Willis, Rivers) would of been, overall, a bigger win than just Harris himself (at least to me, on paper).

    And in hindsight, that trade for LC last year really looks bad. This was a terrific defensive draft. An extra 3rd and 4th round pick would of been much more valuable this year for us.
     
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  22. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you on all points. It's not that harris doesn't have some nice qualities in terms of his short area quickness and explosiveness, but overall he has too many flaws and question marks to warrant a first round pick.

    Trading down and getting a sure thing like Lamp along with extra picks then getting a guy like Jordan Willis or Derek Rivers in the second or third would have been a much better option imho.

    I really wouldn't be surprised if Willis and Rivers outplay Harris this season.

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    Last edited: May 1, 2017
  23. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You know, I'll admit I watched a different video or two of Harris on Friday and such after he was picked, and I wowed alot at what I was seeing from him. I watched this LSU video yesterday. Upon the first watch, I went... Hmm.. well, that was a bit of a let down. So I watched it another two times. I started to then again see some of the traits I saw in him in the video against the lesser opponent, and I think you can tell looking at the LSU offense in this game, they gameplanned away from him quite a bit. Whether it be runs to the opposite side, I think a rollout or two away from him, and alot of quick passes to beat the rush. However, when you watch him, while I don't think there's a sack in this LSU video, more often than not he's still generating pressure and driving the LT back towards his QB. There's a couple of quick throws he there that he forces by overwhelming his man with his speed.

    That initial burst of his is impressive. I agree with you he needs work on his play recognition, or something to that effect, sometimes it's as if he missed the handoff completely, misread a key or something and he just runs by. Alot of times though when they're running in this LSU video, I think alot of people who have it in their head based on some draft profiles that he struggles against the run are going to watch this video and think wow, he really is awful. Without knowing their run fits and such, its hard to say, but in some of those big runs to the left side, you see him doing what I'd consider a good job of protecting the outside and setting the edge. The problem is there's no help from the DT's and LB's to be found and what's left is a gaping hole.

    Anyways, after watching this one though, it didn't change my opinion of him as a player. I'd expect him to see him look a bit more contained against a better team, but you still see that crazy ability to get off the line, get into the backfield and create pressure. It's not like Wake walks out of every game with several sacks either. Doesn't mean he's not getting the job done though. I still think, time with our workout program, time with Wake, and Suh and even Branch/Hayes is going to help him tremendously. I think playing along side guys with more talent than what was probably around him in college is going to help him as well. Now, I don't think he's ever going to lead the league in sacks or anything like that, but I don't think he's going to be Dion Jordan 2.0 either. Overall, this clip didn't concern me too much, it did make me look a bit harder. If it did move the needle towards the negative, it was by a pretty slim margin. To me, still worth a first round pick/grade. However, maybe I'm wrong, who knows.. Can't want to get him on the field so we all get a better idea.
     
  24. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Yes you do seem some positive things I am not saying he is completely terrible, but the question is do you see a first round pick? I definitely don't.

    In terms of them gameplanning and running away from him I don't really think so. They ran right at him plenty of times and the couple of times they rolled away from him wasn't really significant.

    They did get rid of the ball quickly but that's how their pro style offense usually works don't think it was specifically because they were gameplanning for harris. That type of offense and offensive line talent is more indicative of what he will face in the pros and frankly he failed the test.

    He only got one quarterback hit and that was on a play where he was completely unblocked.

    I really think guys like Jordan Willis and Derek Rivers who got picked in the third round could turn out to be better pros than Harris.


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  25. Den54

    Den54 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Load of Horse crap.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2017
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  26. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    So true. Will never work at this level.
     
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  27. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Charles Harris is no dwight freeney. Dwight Freeney is 265 pounds and ran a sub 4.5 forty comming out of college. He had more sacks in his senior season at Syracuse than Harris had during his entire career at Missou.

    I never said a spin move can't work in the NFL, I just said Harris won't be able to make it work consistently at the NFL level given his other limitations and the fact he couldn't even make it work consistently at the college level whe faced with decent competition.

    For comparison watch tim Williams and T. J. Watt against that same LSU offense and you will see they were much more effective than Harris.





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  28. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    Good response! I'll watch them.
     
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  29. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Just watched TJ Watt. He had one good play and all the rest did worse than Charles Harris. I thought he had another good play at 3:08, however, the quarterback should have just stepped forward and his hit on the helmet would have been a penalty. The rest, TJ Watt did not look any better than Harris.
     
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  30. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    He did a lot better against the run, and marginly better against the pass. Same with tim Williams, did better against both the run and the pass.

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  31. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    TJ watt was pushed around against the run and failed to set the edge twice leading to big gains. He mostly failed to get any pressure, except for the stunt, which was nice and the pass at 3:08, where the quarterback displayed very poor pocket presence. I did not watch the Tim Williams one. TJ Watt looked less effective than Charles Harris in the clips you provided.
     
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  32. Puka-head

    Puka-head My2nd Fav team:___vs Jets Club Member

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    Slightly left of center
    That and new coaching and scheme last year. Go back and watch 2015 tape a little bit. That's more like how he'll be used in Miami.

    http://www.mutigers.com/roster.aspx?rp_id=2771

    "2015 SEASON
    Earned Second Team All-SEC honors after leading the SEC in tackles for loss (18.5) and finishing with seven sacks in his first season as a starter … Started all 12 games at defensive end for one of the nation’s most potent defenses … Tallied 56 total tackles (32 solo) which ranked tops on the team among defensive linemen … Had a breakout game at Arkansas State (Sept. 12) with 4.5 tackles for loss, the most in a single game by a Tiger since DE Stryker Sulak had five in 2008 vs. Illinois … Added two of his seven sacks in that game and posted two more QB hurries and six tackles in that game … Had a career-high nine tackles with a sack at Georgia (Oct. 17) … Totaled multiple tackles-for-loss in nine of 12 Mizzou games in 2015 … Had three tackles-for-loss and a sack to go along with three tackles at Vanderbilt (Oct. 24) … Also forced a fumble in that game, one of two forced fumbles on the season … His other forced fumble came in the season-opener vs. SEMO (Sept. 5) … Had a streak of four consecutive games with a sack beginning with the Florida contest (Oct. 10) … Tallied a career-high four QB hurries in Mizzou’s win over BYU (Nov. 14) at Arrowhead Stadium … Had his second-best tackle outing of the season against Tennessee (Nov. 21) when he posted seven, including 1.5 tackles-for-loss and a pass break-up. "
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2017
  33. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    I only saw him fail to set the edge on one play where he got double teamed, overall his run defense was solid and he held the point of attack and set the edge well except for a couple of plays. He even had a couple of tackles for loss which is better than anything Harris did against the run.

    Against the pass watts pressures and ability to beat the tackle were more impressive than anything Harris did rushing the passer against LSU.

    Tim Williams played even beter than both Harris and Watt against LSU.

    And there were other DEs who we could have taken in the 2nd and third rounds such as Jordan Willis or Derek rivers with more value and less risk than taking Harris in the first.

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    Last edited: May 2, 2017
  34. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    Common sense would say that, but yet why every year, year after year does the process fail about 50% of the time?
     
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  35. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think this kid will be a bust, but I do understand where some would wonder if he should have been a 1st round pick.
     
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  36. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Watt was pushed back multiple times, and a few times the blocker pushed him out of the hole. Watt barely got any pressure. What makes Watts looks even worse is that the video was only 4 minutes. I am not trying to be difficult, I just am not seeing what you are seeing. Harris was more effective than Watts by the video you presented.
     
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  37. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    I agree. I've watched both the Watt and Harris videos multiple times now and I'm just not seeing anything close to what hitman8 is seeing. Harris played so much better against LSU...at least in those videos.
     
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  38. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Dafuq was so terrible about Harris' LSU tape?
     
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  39. invid

    invid Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    If anything, these tapes show how much better teams Wisconsin and Alabama had. Harris was on the field for 11 minutes compared to two 4-5 minute tapes from Williams and Watt. Wisconsin had an 11-3 season. Alabama had a 14-1 season. This tells me they had much better coaching and a much more complete teams. The Mizzou offense wasn't generating anything and that the Mizzou defense was on the field way too much.

    Also, what about the players around Charles Harris? All throughout his tapes I see him crashing inside to allow a play from their linebackers and they routinely miss the tackle. Williams and Watt are playing 3-4 OLB in their systems (which is why they were drafted by 3-4 teams). I'm not discounting anything they did in their tapes, Watt had 2-3 nice rushes and Tim Williams did as well and I think they'll be nice pros. But how many LSU plays (out of what felt like 100) were quick passes or runs away from his end of the LOS? Harris might have been tricked by some misdirection but when Guice is gashing your defense up the right-middle all game it gave the LSU offense some flexibility.

    This just seems like a classic case of the grass is always greener or Battered Dolfan's Syndrome.
     
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  40. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

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    Mmmkay. As someone that was pretty opposed to the pick of Harris. This tape against LSU actually is giving me a little relief. I watched the first 4 minutes of that tape and it was impressive to me. The offense was clearly planned to go away from Harris. Bootleg away, to the flat away, offensive line swinging to Harris side, constant double teams. This tape actually shows good as opposed to what the OP is saying...

    Am I wrong?
     

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