****The Official 2016-2017 NBA Thread****

Kyrie is maybe the 9th best PG. They're not getting a huge haul for him. Did you see what jimmy butler and Paul George got traded for?

 

If you watch the Heat like you say you do, then you'd know that getting to the basket and finishing is Dragic's biggest strength. Over his career, he's has one of the best percentages of scoring at the basket in the NBA.

Kyrie Irving was 16th in PER last season, Dragic was 33rd. Not a huge drop off, and being the 33rd most effective player in the league is hardly "middling". If he is "at best" 15th, then you should easily be able to name 14 PGs better than him. I'd love to see that list. I see 8, maybe 9 guys (Isaiah Thomas's defense is atrocious, so I'm not sure I'd prefer him) I'd definitely take before him, but when you get in to guys like Mike Conley, Eric Bledsoe, I think you're splitting hairs.

EDIT: Some excerpts from different articles about Dragic's ability to finish at the basket

 

Yeah. Dragic has NO problem getting to the rim and has Gorilla sized balls.

 

I'm not saying Dragic is elite, but when it comes to finishing at the rim, he is top 5 at that position and probably top 15 in the league.

 

I love Goran, but Kyrie's just on another level offensively. Let's be real here. He stresses defenses in ways that Dragic doesn't. He kills good defenses in the halfcourt because he's so skilled. I mean just look at his career playoff numbers over 52 games.

23.9ppg | 4.7ast - 2.2tov
.465 fg | .415 3p | .876 FT

Don't know how many players can post that type of production in their first 3 playoff trips.

 

We're well aware that Kyrie is on another level. Just were making the point that Dragic is an elite finisher at the rim.

 

Right. I don't think anyone is debating who the better player is here.

 

Yeah I hear ya fellas. I think I'm still fighting the 'fun chucker' '9th best PG in the NBA' comments.

 

I can't speak as to the size of his balls.

Whatever, man. He's no Jrue Holliday.....I kid, I kid.

 

Now that you made me think it through, here's my top PG's I'd take to put on my Pelicans if I could waive a magic wand and steal one.

1. Steph
2. Westbrook
3. Harden
4. CP3
5. John Wall
6. Kyle Lowry
7. Kyrie
8. Isiah Thomas
9. Lillard
10 Mike Conley
11. Kemba Walker
12.Eric Bledsoe
13. Dragic

 

Personally I'd have Walker and Lillard higher and Lowry and Thomas lower because Thomas is one of the worst defenders in the NBA (he may have graded out as the worst). Harden also isn't really a PG and won't be one with CP3 there. Once you get to Bledsoe, Dragic, and Conley I think the difference is negligible. The point is, he's not "middling". He's a very good player. Had the Heat opted to trade him last season, the return would have been substantial with some reporters suggesting he could fetch multiple lottery picks. He'd be about as good a replacement for Irving as they could realistically get back at PG.

 

I think the #13 pg is still in the middle, thus the middling moniker fits. I disagree with discounting Harden and Isiah Thomas. I also disagree with lumping him in the same boat as Conley. I'll give you Bledsoe.

 

Where would you put him? Gardenhead has him at 7 and some could argue having Lillard ahead of him. That would be 8. That's not light years ahead of 9.

 

I want kyrie for sure, I just don't think Dragic/Winslow is a bad haul. I'd take Paul George and Jimmy Butler over Kyrie and they got traded for much less than expected.

 

How many PGs are in the NBA? If he's 13, I wouldn't call it middling. Plus, it happens to be a golden age of PGs. The guy is a really good player. Of the 12 guys ahead of him, which one has any chance of going to the Cavs in a deal? Bledsoe, maybe? If you're the Cavs and you want to compete for a title next year and also set yourself up for the future just in case LeBron leaves, I think a package of Dragic and some of Miami's young parts would be a decent haul for a team in a tough spot. I'd also imagine they'd look to dump some bad contracts on Miami, and Miami might be receptive to doing that.

I could see something like Kyrie, Jefferson, and Shumpert for Dragic, Winslow, Tyler Johnson, and maybe a Richardson or Bam.

 

I guess I should have said middling "starting" point guard. Whatever. We disagree. It's ok.

 

FWIW, my top PGs would be:

Curry
Westbrook
Paul
Irving/Wall
Lillard
Walker
Lowry
Isaiah Thomas
Bledsoe/Conley/Dragic

 

Nah, I got it:
1. Curry
2. CP3
3. Westbrook
4. Wall
5. Dame
6. Lowry (absolute savage on D)
7. Kyrie
8. Conley
9. Dragic
10. IT (if he played defense at all he would be around 5-6)

 

You bros realize harden runs the point right?

 

He used to. Now CP3 has that job. Besides DWade ran the point for years here.

 

I had no idea this Kyrie to the Heat stuff was anything more than optimistic nonsense but I guess it's a pretty strong possibility.

The price tags everyone throws around on this are just insane to me though. Do we really get away with acquiring Kyrie Irving for Goran Dragic plus Justise Winslow? Or Goran Dragic plus Josh Richardson? Even the proposal I saw of Goran Dragic plus Wayne Ellington and Justise Winslow, that seems cheap.

Yeah I hear the stuff about Justise still being young and not wanting to give up and him and all this stuff but right now he's just a defensive player that presents very little value on offense. It's hard to see Cleveland regarding Justise as the "blue chip young player" they want in return for Kyrie.

I go back to what I originally said, that Miami could think about offering Goran Dragic and Bam Adebayo and just see what Cleveland says to that. I realize there are some rules involved about having to wait a month, but I see that as no great impediment.

Do we WANT to lose Bam Adebayo? Hell to the ****ing no. I don't WANT to lose Goran Dragic either, for that matter.

But you gotta give something if you want to get something, and Kyrie Irving is a damn fine player.

Miami can't trade a 1st round pick until 2023, right? So that's out the window. To get a Kyrie Irving you've probably got to give up a lottery pick. Miami picked #15 overall but the guy they took went out in Summer League and looked damn good.

That gives you exactly the asset you may need to turn around and grab a top level player like Kyrie Irving.

I love Bam and all but right now he's a front court player that will get minutes when Hassan Whiteside, Kelly Olynyk, and James Johnson are not dominating the lineup. And as we've seen with Justise, there's no guarantee that Bam's jump shot will round into shape any time soon.

 

Celtics supposedly talking to the Cavs about Kyrie. Lots of jokes about it on twitter but they do have assets, no?

 

I agree with this. I'd give up Bam. Right now it's all upside with him. He could just as easily turn into a role player as he could turn into a good starter. In fact, as optimistic as I am on him, the odds probably favor the former. Kyrie is a legitimate star. When you get the chance to get a star you do it.

I do wonder if Miami could get it done with Dragic, Winslow, and TJ or Ellington taking back some bad contracts from Cleveland like Shumpert and Frye. On the surface it sounds like it's not enough, but lets look at the last three stars that were traded. Cousins went for just about nothing. Butler went for a fairly meh package. George went for trash. Now, George is a little bit of a different situation because he only has a year left on his deal, but Kyrie only has two. The way the market has been set this past year could mean we see Kyrie go fo less than he's truly worth.

As far as the Celtics go, yeah, they do have the assets, but does Cleveland want to make their biggest threat in the East stronger both in the short term and the long term, and is Boston going to give those assets up for a player that might not want to play there? I think those factors complicate it.

 

Boston would essentially be choosing Kyrie over Isaiah. He's just a better, younger version of IT, right? Problem is Boston's fans/media freaking LOVE Isaiah. Plus he's established in that system/lockerroom. I find it hard to imagine them rolling the dice like that on what is in some ways a lateral basketball move right now.

No question they could make an incredibly appealing offer though. IT + Jaylen or Tatum or Crowder + future 1st. That ain't bad if you're thinking both short and long-term as the Cavs. Who the eff knows how LeBron would feel lol.

 

Not to open old wounds, but apparently Hayward was really impressed with his Heat visit that he texted his agent "Wow, that's really going to be tough to beat."

http://heatzone.blog.palmbeachpost....t-wow-thats-going-to-be-really-tough-to-beat/

 

Brian Windbag was on WFAN and said that their is an incredible amount of animus that has built up between LeBron and Kyrie. He also said there are many people in the NBA who feel he's closer to Stephon Marbury than Kobe Bryant.

 

Half that article is him praising Spo.

 

LeBron or Kyrie? Also, any mention of potential trade destinations?

 

I would think Heat players would be attractive for LeBron if he has to be in Cleveland for one more year trying to make another championship run. He tried to steal a bunch of players when he left for Cleveland, and all the sudden Cleveland was talking to UD this off season about joining. Pretty obvious. So if LeBron's got to replace Kyrie with someone, having a Spo-trained Goran Dragic would have to be appealing. LeBron wouldn't care about Goran's age because LeBron is leaving next year anyway. It's pretty obvious now.

The question is what we could add to the pile that would make it attractive to Dan Gilbert. I think you've got to satisfy the "now" as well as the "later" questions in this deal. Getting a now player like Dragic would satisfy LeBron, but getting a "later" player like Bam Adebayo or Justise Winslow would be more likely to satisfy Gilbert. They may also want to get us to eat a bad contract, too.

I would imagine if we offered them Goran Dragic, Tyler Johnson, and Justise Winslow, this deal gets done. Miami may have to get serious though because if the Celtics are calling then the price could go up.

 

Stephen A Smith said on ESPN radio that a source close to LeBron says if he was in the same room right now with Kyrie he would put an *** whooping on him.

 

Sounds like an abusive boyfriend when the girlfriend tries to leave.

But but Lebron is the best basketball player.

 

I'm assuming that he was referring to Kyrie with the Marbury comment.

 

By the way the Heat went ahead and signed up Matt Williams for one of their two-way roster spots. This is what I wrote about him when I previewed all the Heat summer league signups:

He was exactly who I thought he was in summer league. His stroke from downtown was just too appealing to pass up on, even if an Eric Mika looks a bit more well-rounded and legit.

But the guy they also grabbed that I really like a whole lot is Derrick Walton, Jr.

He's 6'1" and looked a bit skinny in college but in Summer League had a nice, squat build with some muscle and strength to him. Physically he's not a jumper, no springs to speak of and certainly not trying to be an above the rim player. He's got more of an NFL running back's movement skills. Not lengthy at all. Wing span probably only a little bigger than his height.

He's spicy AF though. I wouldn't call him a "playground" player, which is how London Perrantes initially struck me. Walton is NBA, but man does he play with some attitude. He's got some Shady McCoy to him from a movement standpoint. His handle might need a little clean-up at times (can lose the ball) but he breaks ankles and does some fancy dribble work at times. His turnovers in college were nothing to speak of and he had a nice 2.86x assist to turnover ratio.

There are three things that are really attractive about him, and one of the factors fits in real nicely from a thematic standpoint with a Matt Williams signing. That is to say, Derrick Walton can hit the three ball consistently, and from great depth behind the arc. That's what you see on the film, not afraid to shoot the ball from far behind the line, and when you combine that with his corner three work, I think that translates. In a four-year career at Michigan he shot 40.1% from three, which is really impressive. He got to Summer League and hit 6 of 12, so he translated his skills that way on a small sample size. Is his three point jumper the most attractive looking shot in the world? No. But it's quick and consistently replicable, which is why he got to a high percentage in college. He was an 88% free throw shooter in his last year at Michigan, and an 84% career three point shooter over four years there. The guy can shoot. That's natural true shooting ability.

The other two things that are great about him (and the two traits are tied to one another) are, 1) his anticipation level, and 2) what a great passer he is. He's one of those guys that can get on the highlight reel as passers. He has such quick hands. He's like a quarterback that spins a great ball off a quick, three-quarters delivery. He averaged 5 assists per game in college, and 6.1 per 36 minutes in Summer League.

He doesn't have quite as fancy passing highlights as Milos Teodosic over in Europe, but sometimes it's not far off that, either. And when you watch him move and set up in anticipation of things, get out on the run way ahead of people, or make quick decisions on the move, you can tell he is anticipating a lot out there because he's making decisions half a beat faster than other players. He's so SUDDEN. That's a nice quality to have.

So what's the down side? Always have to know the down side. He's 6'1". His wing span is probably only 6'2" or so. He has below average hops for a guard of his stature (Tyler Johnson he is not). He's not even close to the kind of ball thief that a Briante Weber was, though he does have quick hands. He was a 16/5/5 player his final year at Michigan (though more like a 19/7/5 player in the Big Ten and National Championship tournaments...on some very efficient numbers). I have really no idea what he's like defensively, but with his frame it's probably not great.

Why talk about him so much? Overall I really like him; that's plain. But the reason I go in depth on him is the Heat are great at finding diamonds in the rough like him that are a little bit older, have some experience and maturity, and might be a little closer to NBA quality than everyone thinks. You are FORCED to take notice when they acquire a player like this for one of those designated developmental roster spots.

With a Matt Williams I think it's more obvious why he's here. They're looking to see if they can farm a three point specialist. You could argue they're looking for the same out of a Derrick Walton Jr., but watching his highlights, studying his stats, and looking at his Summer League production, I think it's more than that.

Some video of Walton:

Summer League Highlights:

Tournament Highlights:

Draft Xpress Workout (note the 21 of 23 shooting from NBA three range, including 12 in a row):

Path to the Pros Video:

 

My mistake. Matt Williams did not get a two way contract. He's more likely just training camp/preseason fodder.

All the more reason you're forced to take notice that they've made Derrick Walton Jr. a two way player.

 

Really? From the context, I thought he meant LeBron.

 

Nah, Kyrie is a score first PG just like Marbury who was on a bunch of bad teams pre Lebron but put up nice stats.

 

I thought it was more of a personality thing. Both Kobe and Starbury wanted out to be their own star. It worked out for Kobe (even though he was the one who stayed). Marbury not so much.

EDIT: LOL, I just made an argument for him to be talking about Kyrie.

 

i dont think we end up with kyrie, spoelstra loves dragic, he fought for him to get traded here. His contract is very team friendly and although not in the same class he has a more rounded game than Kyrie. Kyrie is a guy that is going to get a supermax someday just like John wall and that would kill our depth. Im not giving up bam, goran, and justise for kyrie... that's insane..

.... and im definitely not in favor of taking a guy like kyrie that would prevent us from future transactions due to a 4 year 160 million contract he will seek soon... as i said before let other teams like the celtics and etc pay 30-40 million to the likes of gordon hayward and kyrie Irving... id only want arison to spend that kind of money to Westbrook, lebron, durant, curry, anthony davis and kawhi... you know, the guys who are in the top tier... after those six there is a dropoff and then it probably starts with Liliard.

My mindset is, would you rather your team spend 30-40 million on a single player like Gordon or Kyrie, or would you rather have three very good players. i just dont think kyrie is worth that, and dont get me started with gordon he definitely isnt worth gutting three of of our players. Maybe one and half but thats about it..

I would stick with our depth, kyrie probably needs a guy like Popovich to scold him and transform him into a true playmaker.

 

Correct.

 

This is a star league and if the Heat ever want to make another run at a title, they'll have to get a star. And if they want a star, they're going to have to pay. That's just the way it goes. I don't think adding Kyrie will in any way prevent this team from adding talent in the future. In fact, I think it's the opposite. Stars attract talent, and the Heat have one of the best cap guys in the business.

Right now Bam and Justise are nothing more than lotto tickets. Neither of those two may end up being long term starters for the Heat. The best case scenario for either of those guys is probably not at the premiere level of Kyrie. I love Dragic, am one of Winslow's biggest supporters, and have faith in Bam. But I'd trade those guys to get a star just entering his prime like Irving. Those opportunities just don't come along very often. Think about what a lineup of Kyrie, Waiters, JJ, Olynyk, and Whiteside could do over the next few years. If/When LeBron leaves, it's a coin flip to see who's better between that lineup and the Celtics'.

It may not come down to that, though. I think it might be either/or with Winslow and Bam, and you could see a guy like TJ or Ellington also in the deal.