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They deserve Fan Mutiny until they fix offensive line.

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by iamtiv, Aug 18, 2017.

  1. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    We had a series of injuries LAST YEAR...that has nothing to do with today though.
     
  2. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Uh, no, Steen is not about average for an NFL Center. He is barely serviceable. Urbik and Brendel are both less bad than Steen.
     
  3. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

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    Off topic but I'm still puzzled as to how Satele never got another shot, even as just a backup. Its not saying much but just the Dolphins have started like 5 or 6 players worse than him. Its like he was blackballed from the league for some reason.
     
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  4. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    Dude you didn't say just last year... you said years, plural, because it's true. Has this team fielded a unit of the same 5 players on OL for even 14 games of a season in the past five years? I'd be shocked.
     
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  5. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Not in the past 5 years. You can check "games started" for different years here:
    https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/mia/2016_roster.htm

    However, looking through many other years it seems like it's a bit unreasonable to ask for all 5 players on OL to start at least 14 games. During Marino's years (1983-1999) there are apparently only 3 years where that happened: 1983, 1989 and 1994. So it's kind of rare regardless of the regime.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2017
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  6. cdz12250

    cdz12250 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't think the present situation calls for a mutiny. Deep frustration and unhappiness, yes. Mutiny, no.

    Have we whiffed repeatedly with the sad sack guards we've drafted for the offensive line? Yes; see e.g. Dallas freaking Thomas et al. Have we passed on outrageously expensive free agents to address the guard position, which is where our real problems are? Absolutely. Do we have any guards that can move and drive block in space with some semblance of arriving at the point of attack when necessary? Not for a very long time. Is our depth bad? Yes.

    Look at our starters. We are fine at tackle. We are fine at center. We can't assume an injury to Pouncey until it happens. Tunsil is quality and is going to a new position, but it also happens to be his natural position that he played in college. James is at least average. Our problem is at guard only.

    Most of you guys didn't experience the feeling of utter futility and despair that rooting against the Dolphins was in '71-'73. But you can watch film. Yes, it was a different era. "Big" offensive linemen were playing at 260-270. They were not the road graders needed today. But watch the interior line play. Watch the center and guards not only drive, but pull and hit different points of attack along the defensive line simultaneously, into the secondary, over and over again. Then you had to deal with a back who was an animal and two who were very quick and had excellent vision. And just when you thought you had the stack figured out so they didn't get five yards or more on just about every attempt, or when you didn't expect it, the pocket stayed together or moved, the ball was over your stack, and the receiver was gone. It was impossible to have every empty space covered every time and still be ready for what could be coming at you on the ground.

    Yes, the game is different today, but the modern equivalent of those two guards is what we do not have. We have the center. We have the tackles. We have an animal back in Ayaji. We have quick young backs with vision who can develop. We have the quarterback and the receivers. But guards who can do the stuff I'm talking about, as well as pick up pass rushers in a zone blocking scheme, don't grow on trees.

    We need exactly two guys and some quality depth. Get them, and the offense comes together. It won't be this season. But I'll bet the front office and coaching staff knows at least that much. Just a question of doing it after addressing other equally important priorities, like the putrid run defense. Yes, I would have loved it if we'd drafted De Castro and Lamp, but we had other needs. Now the powers that be hope that we can get two guys to step up and do what needs to be done at guard instead. Asiata came in fat. They will address that. We need him and one more guy to step up. To me, that doesn't call for a mutiny. Yet.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2017
  7. Redwine4all

    Redwine4all Well-Known Member

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    He was also an UDFA rookie playing hurt.
     
  8. finomenal

    finomenal New Member

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    Grier has been the GM for two years. Were you expecting him to fill all the holes in that time period? Compare his two drafts with the rest of the league. He's no slouch.
     
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  9. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    I have to disagree with this. Pouncey is injured now! We are hoping he comes back from that injury which is really risky business.
     
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  10. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I think he's 100% (or close) unless something happened yesterday/today? From what I read last week, Gase said he could go full contact and he's ready to go. They're just keeping him limited as a precaution but he could play right away.
     
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  11. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I don't think they have- we've always had injury problems at line.....which all teams do. When you have 300+ pounders colliding 50 times a game something is going to eventually give....a knee, a back or whatever. That's why we have 10 DL players as well.

    The problem in the Philbin/Sparano era was that we had a decent starting five and the talent dropped significantly past them. Gase is not as worried about having 5 ultra elite as he is having 8-9 solid football players in that squad. He has also been grabbing guys who grade out well in run blocking since it's the harder discipline to teach (for guards), while he is getting solid pass blockers to go against those fast DE's. It's true that Tunsil fell in our laps BUT we were the team smart enough to take him- 11 others didn't.

    My main point is that we won 9 out of 11 with the exact same line everyone thought was one of the worst in the league. It's tough to grade last year for the Dolphins because the offense was so horrible week's 1-5 (mainly because of the line....but RT, receivers and backs have bad stat lines because of it too). Overall though, I think we were around average by league standards for the last 11 games and that was without Pouncey on the field.

    Now that we have another season of chemistry, Pouncey returning, two rookies looking good and several more journeymen in the mix, I think we are fine at offensive line. No, we won't be a top five squad, but I have a feeling that we will grade out in the 12-16 range by the time the season ends- somewhere slightly above average overall and likely in the top 10 for runs.

    People say they have faith in Gase and we all know the line was by far the biggest problem (or maybe on par with the LB problems). To say we need to mutiny the team before we've even seen the first ballgame AFTER we just had our best season in over a decade- I just can't relate to those people. The offense always looks worse in preseason since defenders are shooting gaps while the O is trying to run a complete system...it's a lot harder to sync up on offense during the opening weeks.

    So for me, this is crazy talk- petition the Fins if you want to, people. Just know that you're doing it over made-up problems that likely don't exist in the first place.
     
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  12. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    So you are saying they are worried he might get hurt? That to be sure doesn't add confidence to the situation. I understand their concern and not saying i disagree with their thinking, but it certainly does not add confidence.
     
  13. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    how do you have chemistry when none of the "starting" 5 have played a single snap together this training camp? And don't you still have 2 new linemen in the mix?

    All i've ever heard is how the OL needs to play together to get chemistry.... that has not happened at all.
     
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  14. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    We need 8-10 solid, everyday linemen that can compete- not 5 awesome starters with a huge void behind them. And again, this is the beginning of year two. It would be the same as saying, "Why don't we have five DE's exactly like Wake?" Or "Why don't we have five DeVante Parker's?" The best of the best doesn't grow on trees and we are well ahead of the curve from where our line was weeks 3-5 last season.

    Suggesting a "mutiny" for that reason is insane- you can't get the quality of 5 Parker's in fantasy football. So why would you expect it in real life across a 12 month gap at a much harder position to fill?
     
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  15. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    so we got 2 maybe 3 out of those 10 you mentioned. I don't think anyone is asking for 5 Parker's, but it would be nice to have 5 guys that play well together the majority of the time. It has been a long long time since that occurred.

    Now it appears another guard was injured today in practice.

    I hope Pouncey holds up, but if he is hurt again I don't think a single person on this board would be surprised by that.
     
  16. invid

    invid Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Take it with a grain of salt:

    http://www.nj.com/eagles/index.ssf/2017/08/eagles_vs_miami_dolphins_winners_and_losers_from_d.html
     
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  17. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    We've won 9 of the last 11 largely due to the OL play. We've also had three 200+ yard games out of the past seven....which you already know is historic. In any case, 9 out of 11 is the majority of the time AND we are in a better position this year.

    That brings up an even more important point though- we drafted/traded for almost entirely defensive players this year out of necessity. The defense was why we lost to NE both times. The D cost us a playoff win. Most of our woes were due to the amount of points we gave up down the stretch and how woefully easy it was to run on us.

    I'd say we have 6 or 7 out of the 10 total linemen we need long term- two are superstars. Four or five more are solid starters or rotational players. Both rookies look good....so we're nowhere near as far off as some people think.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2017
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  18. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Toward the end of last season he had a bum ankle. But early on he was totally healthy and still nothing special. I will say he does have crisp accurate shotgun snaps though, and that counts for something. Urbik was playing ahead of him late in the season, while Steen was active but not in the starting lineup.
    If you want to believe he is an average NFL center, that is your choice. I doubt many will agree though.
     
  19. Redwine4all

    Redwine4all Well-Known Member

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    lol...he was a rookie UDFA. And injured!!
     
  20. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    LOL. He was only injured later in the season. LOL. He was not injured early, when he did not look like an average NFL center!!! LOL.
     
  21. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    What does LOL mean?


    Lots of Love?
     
  22. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    [​IMG]
     
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  23. miamiron

    miamiron There's always next year

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    Larsen was a cheap career backup...nothing more nothing less
    He's started ONLY one 16 game season in his 7 year NFL career
    He's played for 4 teams since 2013...
    Just shows how little value our Coach,GM,and scouting dept place on Guards
     
  24. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but you're skipping over the "undrafted free agent rookie" part. The kid competed and looked better than two veterans that were shown the door in week 5. He was also playing three different positions and holding his own. For a year 5 guy, maybe we'd say he was below average at times. But for a rookie, he did great under the circumstances.
     
  25. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Not defending Larsen, but has been the regular starter, when healthy, for 4 seasons. He started 11 of 12 games played as a rookie, started 13 of 16 in his 3rd season, and 10 of 10 played in 2015. He started half of 16 games played last season. Gase said recently Larsen's skill set fits what they want their guards to do. Hopefully, Gase knows what he is talking about.
    He has not played for the 4th team, Miami, yet.
    In 2016, Larsen appeared in 16 games for the Bears and was rated by Pro Football Focus as the No. 44 guard out of 72 qualifying players. If they are right, he is a middling guard as NFL guards go. That seems to be all our coaches look for in guards. IMO, he and Kraig Urbik are two peas in a pod when it comes to skill set.
     
  26. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    If the over/under bet on how many games Pouncey starts in 2017 and plays in their entirety was 8, would you bet the over or the under? I'd hope I am wrong but I would bet the under.
     
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  27. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Last season, Steen only played Center as a starter. He may have had very limited snaps at LG, but none at his more natural position, RG. Where he played throughout college. Maybe you define holding his own differently. I'd agree in pass pro he usually held his own, but he struggled mightily as a run blocker. Check out Ajayi's avg per carry in games with Pouncey, compared to games without. The difference is very significant..
     
  28. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Of course we would all want to bet on the over, but I don't know if I'd take that bet either. We just don't have enough information to tell whether the hip is fine or if it's going to be hit or miss for most of the year.

    As for Steen, I thought he started 1 or 2 games at LG when Tunsil covered for Albert...maybe he came in as relief though. We had so many injuries that it's almost a moot point- everyone saw significant playing time across that line. I think people are getting caught up in my "held his own" comment though- Steen was obviously not a Bro-Bowl lineman. We were able to move the ball with him on the field though and as a rookie, that's exactly the type of lineman you want backing people up and growing with the system.

    When I said that you want 8-10 solid lineman, I would consider him solid for a 2nd year guy with positive on-field experiences. Don't forget- we won 9 of 11 and our QB's and RB's put up big numbers down the stretch. Maybe it wasn't consistent but compared to weeks 1-5, Steen and company were awesome given their level of experience/chemistry. That should only improve in year 2....that's all I was saying.
     
  29. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    I think when Tunsil covered for Albert, Urbik played LG, and Steen played C.
     
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  30. Redwine4all

    Redwine4all Well-Known Member

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    How much value did the Patriots put on the G position last year?
     
  31. Redwine4all

    Redwine4all Well-Known Member

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    EXACTLY. I was going to ask him..."So was he not an UDFA at the beginning of the season?" I am not sure what the point is of not at least giving him that. Many players struggle their rookie season, even high draft picks. Its not unheard of that a rookie might not be all-world even if he is perfectly healthy. An UDFA? Yeah, you would think he might get that benefit. But alas, no. All some want to talk about is he was healthy when he first started....and then they LOL. Wow.
     
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  32. Redwine4all

    Redwine4all Well-Known Member

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    This is as reasonable an opinion that has been posted on this thread, IMO. No, they weren't great, in any combination after Pouncey got hurt. But they did win about 80% of the games they played. So...
     
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  33. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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  34. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    Actually, in is first start Steen looked like an All-Pro center. I think PFF graded him 5th best center that week. He has shown some really good flashes...he's also showed some really crappy ones too. However, I think that should be expected for a rookie off of the street who was shuffled through all the o-line positions and never played center in college.
     
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  35. invid

    invid Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I'm not sure. Reports yesterday said that Maxwell got beat thrice for touchdowns.. but there were redzone periods. So I'm not really sure the context of him getting beat. Everybody has their off days though. I wouldn't be too concerned, just like I wouldn't be crazy hype that our offensive line had a good joint practice.
     
  36. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    I mean...dont you even want to watch one regular season game before leaping off a cliff?
     
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  37. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    Or all the pre-season games, at least?
     
  38. CashInFist

    CashInFist Well-Known Member

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    When I first started seeing that online a lot, around the year 2000, I thought it meant "Lots of Luck" :marble:
     
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  39. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    He wasn't totally just off the street. He did not shuffle through ALL the OL positions. He has only been an interior guy. Never a OT. He'd spent parts of the 2015 season on the Cards and then our practice squads. He had been with Miami through their entire offseason program. He was not a 2016 UDFA. He was a 2014 UDFA and spent most of that season on the Cards PS too. We did not run the ball well vs Seattle, so if he was ranked 5th, it must have been almost entirely due to his pass blocking. I don't hate the guy and he may make a middling LG this season, but at C, overall, I would not say he was about average overall last season.
    No, he did not look like an All-Pro vs Seattle. That would be a guy like Travis Frederick and Alex Mack, etc.
     

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