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Charles Harris is really stinking it up...

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by hitman8, Aug 28, 2017.

  1. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Your argument seems to be evolving, or my understanding of the argument is. So, you agree that a first round DE could be drafted to be a situational player his first year with the expectation of spending time on the bench?
     
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  2. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    After one preseason he is for sure not the next Cam Wake? The same Cam Wake who had very simular preseason stats this year? The same Cam Wake who wasn't drafted and was cut by his first NFL team in June? The same Cam Wake that had 5.5 sacks and around 30 tackles his first year (4th as a pro) as a Dolphin? One preseason and "that's for sure" huh? Oh, and I don't remember JTs first preseason, but his first season he had 5 sacks. 5.
     
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  3. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    Well yea, if he is a situational pass rusher with 7-8 sacks he was a huge part of the defense.

    Dan the man posted that beyond a few dreamers, very few first rounders are expected to come in and make an immediate impact. I do not think thats the case. He was drafted with the vision of being a situational DE who could play at a high level....thats the expectation.
     
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  4. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    I was using impact in the way that hitman was using it. He expected Harriss to come in and beat out Wake or Branch and since he hasn't he sucks.

    I'm sure he will deny that, but anyone who reads this entire thread, including his refusal to answer my question about Wake and Branch, proves it.
     
  5. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    I never once said he had to beat out branch or wake, but he should at least look like he could assume the role of a starter should branch or wake get injured. He has not looked like that at all so far.

    As far as impact I would consider at least 5 -7 sacks and decent against the run his first year to be a good year. Not necessarily starting but he should be contributing significant snaps and producing as part of the rotation.
     
  6. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Cam wake was not a 1st round pick, neither was JT, they therfore had diminished roles their 1st years but they still had an impact. I remember wake's first camp with us he immediately showed that he was special and got constant pressure on the QB, same with JT.

    The main reason other than lack of any production whatsoever that I see a clear difference between harris and wake/JT is his lack of speed and power.

    In terms of speed/power ratio harris is nl where near them. He could improve his strength in the weight room by adding some more muscle, but that would slow him down some more.

    Speed, power and the ability to convert speed to power is very important for a pass rushing DE. Wake and JT had it in spades, harris is lacking especially in the speed category. Couple that with the fact he doesn't understand the game very well yet and is somewhat clueless against the run and you see why he is a significantly flawed player for a 1st round pick.

    That's why I was so much higher on Jordan Willis, his speed to power ratio is through the roof and comparable to wake and JT. He is also able to anchor and set the edge against the run a lot better than harris.

    Just look at the preseason Willis is having compared to harris and you will clearly see the difference.
     
  7. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Harris has been pressuring QBs, or did you miss that graphic that was posted?
     
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  8. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Cam Wake was cut in June his rookie season. He was in his fourth year as a pro his first camp with us. If that's your standard, Harris has 3 more years. Harris has also gotten pressure on the QB, and has been better against the run than I was lead to believe he could be. He also has demonstrably more than a spin move in his pass rush.

    The main issue I have is that you keep couching your reasonable analysis with absurd declarations, or vice versa. You like Willis more at this point. That's great, hard to argue against that. But, look at the title of this thread, look at the point I called you out on. This kinda troll, kinda interesting analysis posting is frustrating. I wish you would make up your mind so I'd know whether to put you on ignore or not.
     
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  9. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Well, I don't think we have an argument then.
     
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  10. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Cam wake didn't even get to training camp his rookie season. He spent two weeks withe the giants and they cut him before even really evaluating him. His first real camp in the NFL was with the dolphins. I understand you dont like my lanuguage, I can get a little hyperbolic sometimes. By saying harris is stinking it up I mean he is stinking it up in terms of what I would expect from our 1st round pick. If he was a 3rd rounder I would be ok with his performance.

    What especially tics me off is the other players we could have had or the trade down we could have done which we passed on in order to pick a flawed developmental player like harris.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2017
  11. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    lol...

    The Dolphins had around 30 sacks last season. If he doesn't beat out Branch or Wake how is he going to get around 25% of the teams total sacks? Cam Wake had around 35% of the teams sacks from last season and in his best season in terms of total stats (2012) Wake accounted for 40% of the teams sacks. In 2013 he accounted for ~23% of the teams total sacks. Cam Wake, over his entire NFL career, has averaged about 10 sacks per season and you expect Harris to get 7 in his rookie season?

    To me it sounds like you don't think these things through and just as I suspected you're just mad because they didn't pick your guy.
     
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  12. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    More liked ignored it....lol
     
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  13. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    Wrong
     
  14. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    If Harris was expected to get 7-8 sacks in his rookie year, while not starting, he'd have gone in the top 5, maybe top 3.

    People don't think things through.
     
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  15. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    Funny you accuse anyone of not thinking anything through, then totally misquote what I said by inserting your own narrative. I never once said he "was expected". You truly are the prince of pulling things out of your anus. Grats
     
  16. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    The only one pulling anything out their anus is you. I wasn't even referencing you. It was supposed to be 5-7 sacks, and that was from Hitman.

    Relax, dude.
     
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  17. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    Oh. Forgive me. *Kisses*
     
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  18. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    That graphic can be misleading, a pressure can be ambiguous and depending on who is grading it could be more or less. Just him being near the QB when he throws the ball could be counted as a pressure even if he really didn't affect the throw at all.

    In terms of actually getting his hands on the QB he has 0 QB hits and 0 sacks, also has 0 Tackles for loss and only 2 total tackles total only one of those solo.

    And he only has 3 total QB hurries.

    Those numbers are bad. If you add to that fact that he has also been bad against the run and not able to set an edge consistently and its even worse.
     
  19. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    How exactly am I wrong Dan? Harris does NOT have very good speed as shown by his game tape and 40 yard dash time. He almost always comes up short in pursuit. He is quick in a short area, but he is not at all fast. There is a difference between being quick and being fast in case you didn't know.

    Cam wake is fast, JT was fast, harris is not fast.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2017
  20. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    That's not the proper way to analyze it. First of all I said 5 to 7. Not necessarily 7. Second the total sack number for the team is not a set number, if we supposedly have better pass rushers on the team this year then the total sack number should go up, not stay the same or go down. Last year we had Jones and Williams getting snaps and not producing much at all in terms of sacks, if either one of them had been more productive the sack number would have been higher.

    There are enough snaps and sack opportunities to go around for a 4 man DE rotation.

    5 to 7 sacks is not some outrageous number as you try to paint it. It is very doable if harris takes advantage of his opportunities.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2017
  21. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    It's better than what you're giving us.
     
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  22. Colmax

    Colmax Well-Known Member

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    Pass rushers in the first round are tricky. We've had our own eff up in Jordan. Look how long it took Mario Williams. I mean, I think it's easier for other positions like RB and LB to be really solid at the beginning. Other positions, not so much.

    If it's the end of his first contract and he still sucks it up, make the decision then. I like that he seems earnest on wanting to learn the craft. And learning from some good ones. Some guys don't have that mentality. I really like that.
     
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  23. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Not directly at you because I can't remember your position, but When it comes to pressure stats for Tanny from PFF, we don't know because we can't be sure of what type of pressure etc.

    So hitman has every right to question PFF's straight stats, since they've been questioned here before.
     
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  24. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    The difference is, that with regards to Tannehill, we're questioning how many guys were pressuring him at once... in other words, just because two QBs have similar pressure percentages, doesn't mean they're under similar pressure. This is different, they're saying he's pressuring the QB X percent.
     
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  25. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Actually, I reposted some stats CK noted (before PFF started restricting access) about total rushers per play, and it was higher for Wilson than Tanny (during the great Wilson/Tanny wars) and it was still questioned. They offered the number of dropbacks there was pressure, and number of rushers, so you can extrapolate how many rushers per play.

    Since that argument was toast, they resorted to, oh well, the stats doesn't say if they were coming down the middle vs outside.

    You get what I'm saying? Whenever PFF comes up with a stat, the other side of that stat will always marginalize it somehow. This isn't just restricted to the ratings which I get, but also "stats."

    We had debates on what's a dropped pass during the great Chris Chambers wars.
     
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  26. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    I'm not explaining it to you again. Re-read the thread and numerous people have explained it. Just because you ignore/don't understand it doesn't mean it didnt happen.
     
  27. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    I stopped after you said you didn't say 7 but said 5-7. Lol

    Just stop dude. Lol
     
  28. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    I'm typically not a fan of PFF's grading. Hitman, however, has shown that he is a fan.

    However, when a QB is being pressured I don't think there are many subjective ways to look at that. However, when a QB is being pressured and you're trying to compare that pressure with another QB there are.

    For example: Did player X pressure the QB is a yes or no question and when you compare him to player Y there is objective data.

    When PFF says, Wilson was under pressure x amount of time more than RT, well, maybe he was, but was Wilson's pressure one player, two players, more? Was Wilson under pressure after 2 seconds, 3 seconds, etc?
     
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  29. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    This continuing argument over Harris is getting tiresome, especially after a few preseason games. The draft is a craps shoot. Rarely do you roll a 7 or 11 on the come out roll. Sometimes you roll craps, most times you roll a 6 or 8 and have to work to get the payout.

    If you believe in Gase, then enough with the talk about Harris. If you don't believe in Gase, then still...enough about the talk with Harris and start focusing your argument against Gase and not Harris. He's merely a piece on a chess board.
     
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  30. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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  31. RevRick

    RevRick Long Haired Leaping Gnome Club Member

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    Let's see. Today is Sep. 3. The season begins next week. Maybe we could begin --- THAT is, begin, Ah Say! --- then, to evaluate our draft picks from last April. (With apologies to Foghorn Leghorn!)

    Another thing to be considered is that, perhaps, we could get a better evaluation sometime next February... if we are lucky. January, if not!
     
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  32. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    Who are the 12 rookie DE's ranked ahead of him?
     
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  33. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Exactly, harris was the third DE taken in the draft, which means there are at least 10 other DEs who were picked after him who have outperformed him this preseason.

    I dont see how that qualifies as elite.

    Meanwhile Jordan Willis had another sack in the bengals final preseason game, he would have had two were it not for a penalty that negated another one. That's now 4 sacks in as many games for willis.

    He finishes the preseason with 4 sacks, 3 QB hits, 7 tackles (5 solo), 2 TFL, and 1 FF

    Harris finishes with 0 sacks, 0 QB hits, 2 tackles (1 solo), 0 TFL, and 0 FF
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2017
  34. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Sure, lets give him time. But It's not looking good so far. We have a right to evaluate players in the preseason, that's mainly what its for.

    Most of the guys cut or retained yesterday were evaluated based on preseason performance.
     
  35. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    You are not explaining it because you have no valid explanation. You are just avoiding the topic. Charles Harris is NOT fast and all the available evidence shows that. You not agreeing with it doesnt make him run any faster.
     
  36. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I just told you, it said all of that. The year we had the stats he had more rushers per pressure. And time to pressure was there too. It's all there. But this isn't about Wilson. Just about PFF
     
  37. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Sure, you wont respond because you know your argument was flawed.

    You didn't stop reading you just realized what you said makes no logical sense as I pointed out.

    There is no reason why Harris should not be able to get 5 to 7 sacks this year if he is that good. He will have enough opportunities to do so.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2017
  38. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    And what you were told then is what you're being told now, Wilson scrambled a lot and ran a lot, all of that counts as more players applying pressure.

    It is incredibly simple, Thill faced more pressure from multiple sources at once than Wilson did. It is just intellectually dishonest to keep talking over that point by trying to fit other stats to that issue. It is an incredibly different situation avoiding 3 rushers coming at you all at the same time from all three sides than avoiding three rushers coming in a staggered time frame.
     
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  39. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    I do wonder how many of those 12 DE's ranked ahead of Harris have been playing vs 1st String OL. I mean, having a high PFF score playing against third stringers isn't quite the same.

    I would like to know, though, out of the group of rookie DEs who are seeing time with the 1's, where does Harris' score rank?
     
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  40. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    Why.
     

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