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State of The Franchise

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by dirtylandry, Nov 19, 2017.

  1. dirtylandry

    dirtylandry Well-Known Member

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    Let's assume Ross doesn't want this blown up. He wants one more shot and spend some money to maybe not only give Gase a chance, but have a run before dismantling. What if Miami makes enough cuts to sign Cousins or Brees to a 1-2 year contract, with most of the $ guaranteed in the first year? Maybe we still draft a qb this year, in a qb-heavy draft, but maybe we dismantle the heavy contracts in 2019, when the dead cap money is less and cap savings are more. In my opinion, they would have to somehow get personnel in the trenches, around this fix.
     
  2. Rickysabeast

    Rickysabeast Royale With Cheese

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    I would accept a return of Gase ONLY IF we are going to go after it this year in draft and free agency. IF we come out swinging, working trades, grabbing Leveon Bell, etc and add some real talent.
     
  3. dirtylandry

    dirtylandry Well-Known Member

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    as expensive as Bell is, he is the back that Gase needs. we need to cut players and use that money for the trenches. we don't need WRs. we can franchise Landry and our secondary is going to be anchored with our safeties. With McMillon back, I want to repeat that we need to fix the trenches and maybe get a short and long term solution at qb
     
  4. dirtylandry

    dirtylandry Well-Known Member

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    Again,I love the kid....but is history on Phins side? How many qb's after 6-7 seasons, become top 10? Better asked, is 6-7 years the benchmark on the upside on a qb? Let's face it, we can't scout or draft linemen, or a team for that matter, so assuming more of the same, is this franchise in a stalemate with RT?
     
    bigballa2102 likes this.
  5. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    There are analysts who have him around 12th in the league. He was drafted raw, needing a couple years of development, and the development he got initially was not good. In spite of that, he's developed into the cusp of top 10, and has showed top 10 play over the span of multiple games last season. You can question his knee, but imo, that's the only reasonable question in regards to his ability to be top 10.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2017
  6. rackhound

    rackhound Well-Known Member

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    Neither of those things will happen even if the dolphins wanted them too. Brees isn't going anywhere and from what Ive read about cousins he turned down 53 million guaranteed from Washington. I'm not a Cap guy but it seems to me we cant afford him. Id rather see how things go with Tannehill next season and hopefully another good draft.
     
  7. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    I think he’s always going to be a 10-20 level Qb. Never the best, never the worst. Maybe a playoff QB if he has a great team built around him. Too many mental mistakes to carry a team in the playoffs against good teams.
     
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  8. Triggercut

    Triggercut Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
     
  9. dirtylandry

    dirtylandry Well-Known Member

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    Brees will test the market. He has even said that, I believe. The key is he can't be franchised. As for Cousins, you are right I think because Washington starting over at qb would be stupid. But.....I am not sure if the market for Cousins is $100M plus over X years
     
  10. dirtylandry

    dirtylandry Well-Known Member

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    my issue is pocket presence. he has the tools, but the ability to shift, slide and read where pressure will come from distinguishes the elite from the rest.
     
  11. dirtylandry

    dirtylandry Well-Known Member

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    don't forget to start this early:
    a shot for every holding, false start and illegal formation
     
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  12. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

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    Should the site put up a legal disclaimer to cover themselves for any deaths resulting from this?
     
  13. dirtylandry

    dirtylandry Well-Known Member

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    yes
     
  14. dirtylandry

    dirtylandry Well-Known Member

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    illegal block in the back. finally a shot
     
  15. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    add bubble screens to Landry and everyone is dead.
     
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  16. Phins_to_Win

    Phins_to_Win Well-Known Member

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    This is what distinguishes elite from the rest... until it isn't. This isn't so much directed at you Dirty as the general approach to make Tannehill out to be worse then he is. We have been hearing all of the issues that are the "gateway" to becoming elite. Leadership, respect from teammates, deep ball accuracy, becoming a scrambling QB, and the list goes on and on. I'm not saying that each of these don't have merits, I'm just not sure that any one thing keeps a player from being elite, outside of talent itself. And Tannehill does have a lot of talent. More then any other QB I can remember, he honestly seems to erase entire weaknesses each year(assuming they are weaknesses to begin with).

    He is one of the best at scrambling and throwing on the run. His accuracy is actually already elite (25 consecutive pass completions). His deep ball is a thing of beauty now. When he uses his legs he has great speed to hurt defenses. He has grown as a leader on the team. How many times in his career have we gone against a clearly better team and he has miraculously had us in the game till the last minute? I remember the Packers and Denver games a few years ago, when most of this forum was expecting blowouts. Instead we were winning in the 4th. I have said it before, I don't know what we really have with Ryan. Nobody does. He may turn out to be Eli Manning when he hits playoffs, or he might turn out to be Andy Dalton. I know he isn't the reason we haven't been making the playoffs... and that says a lot to me.

    Prescott for Dallas is yet the latest QB that looks lost once you put him behind a horrible O-line. Did he all of a sudden forget how to be elite? If I'm not mistaken this was one of the names thrown around as a meter for why it was time to get rid of Tannehill. Prescott has looked amazing behind one of the top O-lines in the sport. His pocket presence was off the charts, his ability to make a play while being pressured nothing short of amazing, the command of the offense was inspiring. Oops, down goes his left Tackle and he seems pretty human to me.

    Tannehill has managed to put up good games behind a bad O-line. We will probably never have the Cowboy's offensive line, but is it so much to ask to get an above average line to see what we have with Tannehill?
     
  17. Rickysabeast

    Rickysabeast Royale With Cheese

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    I love his ability to throw on the run. Question is, why can't he throw well standing still?

    Tannehill is a lot like the Dolphins have been for the last couple decades....average. Sure, some games he's really good and other games he's not really bad. He might win the game for you and he probably won't lose it for you. Kinda meh.

    If there's a better QB option even if it's a rookie who will have to learn behind him for a year but has potential huge upside we need to go for it. But, keep T-Hill as backup. Start making a solid QB core so that we have a chance to win consistently. NE did it, Eagles just did it, we need to do it. T-Hill by himself and then the warm bodies that populate the rest of the QB roster is not a good answer as we are clearly seeing.
     
  18. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    I think the primary reason Prescott is struggling is because Elliott isn't there. Consider: Prescott was 5-3 with a combined passer rating of 97.9 which put him (barely) in the top 10 with Elliott, but after Elliott he's 0-3 with a combined passer rating of 57 which would put him LAST among starting QB's.

    Now you're right losing Elliott coincided with losing Smith, but Smith started their last game which they lost 28-6. And yes I know that they lost Zack Martin to a concussion during that game, but almost anyone looking at Dallas's OL has to conclude that's a pretty good group even if you lose one starter.

    So I think the primary reason is losing Elliott and that this is a rare example of a RB being highly valuable in today's NFL. Of course we'll be able to test this as time goes along because Martin should be back soon and of course we'll see Elliott again at some point.
     
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  19. dirtylandry

    dirtylandry Well-Known Member

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    damnit I need a qb, that even if he missing the entire line or a RB, he is going to be elite. scout scout scout and draft draft draft till you do. If Miami did that all along the last 20 years, would we be better or worse?
     
  20. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    What QB is elite missing his rb and entire starting oline??

    That quarterback doesn't exist. You're looking for a unicorn.
     
    Tin Indian likes this.
  21. Phins_to_Win

    Phins_to_Win Well-Known Member

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    That's true, Elliott hurt a lot as well, and I didn't mean to minimize the impact Elliott had on the game. My point mainly is that a QB needs help. We should all be able to agree that Tannehill, has not been given all that much help, with our talent pool. Dallas looked like they knocked one out of the park with Dak, but honestly they built up a solid squad and brought a young QB into a position he could win with. That's the model I think we should focus on.

    If we want to bring in competition at QB I'm fine with that. I just wouldn't spend the farm on trying to move up to get one of the expected top tier QBs. If something special drops to us, great, grab it. More likely we find ourselves on the outside looking in. So we continue to strengthen the environment for a QB to succeed in. AND if someone is willing to offer us the farm to take our spot, I would take it and roll with deep talent and Tannehill for next year.

    Of course we need our front office to perform better and at a more consistent rate, or we will continue to struggle no matter who is behind center.
     
  22. gilv13

    gilv13 Well-Known Member

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    I guarantee this won't be the last argument about Tannehill.
     
  23. bigballa2102

    bigballa2102 Well-Known Member

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    HAHAHAH THIS MAKES ME LAUGH, im all up for a challenge but make sure your toilet is clean and ready for a Sparring session prior to game time!!!!
     
  24. bigballa2102

    bigballa2102 Well-Known Member

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    he played no one in those games and the only game he played in that stretch of 5 games was an *** whoopin by the only team .500 or more the ravens, you can simply say it was a beneficial schedule for him as well not all him.
     
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  25. bigballa2102

    bigballa2102 Well-Known Member

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    I understand that but im not arguing im just speaking truth. im just saying if you want to put stats to make your argument good then put the other side of the argument, he had a very favorable schedule that's all.
     
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  26. bigballa2102

    bigballa2102 Well-Known Member

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    RT is on the sideline with a beanie on I haven't seen him take a snap so no hes not lighting teams up this yr. last year we could run the ball and the helped him immensely same as it does for dak, now that we cant run the ball its showing. all observation of the other side of your argument.
     
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  27. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Here's why I HATE, HATE, HATE statistics...our offensive line was deplorable for the first 5 games and Tannehill had very little time in the pocket. Four of those "under" performances took place in this stretch and we fired two linemen because of it. Looking at stats on a page don't tell you that though.

    A more recent example- Matt Moore yesterday. A few folks here made the comment he sucked because of two picks, but that's completely out of context. His receiver never even looked for the ball on the first throw and the 2nd pick was a last-chance heave when the game was already over. I realize Moore's QBR takes the hit regardless but that doesn't tell you who he is as a QB or how he actually played yesterday. It's just a rating/grouping metric where folks should START THEIR RESEARCH...it's not the research itself.

    By the way, I'm not calling you out here....we've just seen a lot of metrics lately and told to accept them as black and white proof. Your eyes are infinitely more valuable than any stat sheet ever created.
     
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  28. bigballa2102

    bigballa2102 Well-Known Member

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    The funniest stats of all time are in the NBA when people talk about rebounds, you know how many rebounds I see LeBron James get flat footed that just fall into his hands and this is a wide issue in the nba no one fights for rebounds anymore, so stats to me in professional games are very very skewed and misleading based off play. I know the NBA and the nfl are two different things, but based off stats RT should come back and win a superbowl or lead us to the afc ship right? That will never happen his skills are below avg with above avg stats IMO and I know everyone will argue about blah blah I don't know what im talking about which is fine. he will just be another name we remember 5 years fro mnow saying remember when we had the "insert name here" vs "insert name here" argument lol
     
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  29. dirtylandry

    dirtylandry Well-Known Member

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    I discussed saving $60M next year by cutting Wake, Tannehill, James, Pouncey, and Thomas. They also have a $16M carryover into 2018. In addition to us drafting a qb in round 1, and Miami being suitors for Brees and Cousins, would you consider trading a 4th or 5th for Manning?
     
  30. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    How can a guy with below average skills, with at best an average surrounding cast, put up above average numbers? News flash, he has really had below average surrounding cast.

    The statements I see on here boggle my mind.
     
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  31. bigballa2102

    bigballa2102 Well-Known Member

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    I mean at this point there is so much wrong with this place a qb qould help but you would have to get a kid in their to learn from whomever you trade for, at this point with coaches doing blow and all the other crap surrounding Miami and having to play the pats twice a yr I don't think Miami is a suitor for any major veteran, I do think you could try for like cousins or maybe Bradford or teddy B (both injury proned) depending on who the vikes let go, but I don't think breese or anyone like that would come to Miami with other strong suitors out there.

    IMO I wouldn't be apposed to it if the core stayed put and we could put a line together
     
  32. bigballa2102

    bigballa2102 Well-Known Member

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    people boggle my mind too, out of 5 years your looking at 3 games 3 games with a high rating same people on here looking at 1 yr of 10 years for cutler, a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile but to think the guy is above avg off 3 games and 1 yr of 5 that's shooting a stretch hes below avg his whole career and had 3 great games, yes they were last year but by any means to peg him above avg is shooting free throws blindfolded behind your back.

    He really needs to show next yr is all im saying. yes he has multiple OC and all the other blah blah, but you have to take the good with the bad and based off stats hes had a handful of games in a lot of games, I merely base it off of percentages if hes good in 49% of his games that means hes bad in 51% of his games and that's not an above avg qb IMO. Like ive told every RT lover here over and over its my opinion and based off not knowing me you have no idea what and how I know about qb's so you can love stats and love all that but when he pans out about as well as every other qb since marino then all you gotta do is come back and say I as well as a lot of other people on here were right about him that's all.

    And if he does prove me wrong (which I hope he does) I will gladly say I'm wrong no shame in it all.
     
    shamegame13 likes this.
  33. dirtylandry

    dirtylandry Well-Known Member

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    well, Ross is going to have to show a vision and entice people to come.
     
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  34. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Again, Tannehill was drafted needing development. Why is anyone drawing any conclusions off the first couple years? Most QBs are given three years before judgement, and those are guys who don't need the extra development that Tannehill did. So, looking at his last two seasons, I find it hard to find to come to the conclusions you guys do.
     
  35. bigballa2102

    bigballa2102 Well-Known Member

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    I mean who wouldn't want to come to south beach, I mean even the coaches love to party hahah jk
     
  36. bigballa2102

    bigballa2102 Well-Known Member

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    how many years is enough? 4.75 years he's had how much longer are you willing to "develop" before you know he's not gonna take you to the promise land? Why do you draft a qb 8th overall if he needs 7 years of development? waiting around to be mediocre is the phins forte and im saying its just a pattern.
     
  37. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    Suit Doughty up and give him some snaps. Lets see what we have. Can't believe backup QB yesterday did not get some snaps. Need to evaluate now in games like this.
     
  38. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Yeah, pretty clearly I said he needs 7 years of development.
     
  39. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Uhh.. the stats show RT is a slightly above average QB, certainly not top 10 except for some stretches of play, which btw I think jibes with what a lot of analysis would say about him anyway.

    Regarding the utility of stats.. keep in mind they show trends, so they're most useful when sample size is large, so in this case over longer time scales. One really shouldn't use stats on a play by play basis. Even for a single game stats can be misleading, but over many many games stuff starts to average out, like how often it's the WR's fault or the QB's fault for a dropped pass, etc.. That's when the utility (over eyes) starts to show itself.
     
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  40. bigballa2102

    bigballa2102 Well-Known Member

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    so I don't mind either getting rid of him or using him next yr, but if he doesn't show much next yr is it time to get rid of him? or is the developmental stage worth another 3 years in your eyes?
     

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