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A Plan for an OL Fix

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Da 'Fins, Dec 2, 2017.

  1. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    The offensive line has been disjointed and ineffective for a long time. The OG position is weak and inconsistent. We need to move on from Pouncey - he has weaknesses handling big DTs and not worth his contract. I also think we need to let James go because he's going to cost $9 Million and he's been average at best, not worth $9 Million. So, that leaves Tunsil as a sure starter. But, there is a way of going that route and fixing things.

    We really already have crap there.

    I would let James go before the cut off date (which is the first day of the league year 2018, March 15th, I believe) and we save $9 M. I wouldn't immediately release Pouncey but see about trying to trade him just prior to or during the draft (I'd take a 4th or 5th - would be nice to be in that round); and if you don't get anything - release him after the draft (saving $7 Million - $9 Million salary but a $2 Million hit on release).

    I hold out promise for Jesse Davis at OG (possibly RT but I think he's better at OG) as a performer than I do for James at RT. That's 2 positions (Davis, Tunsil) with 3 to fill. Several free agent options - some will cost less than the $9 M for James other more on an annual basis. You have Eric Smith who looked very good in pre-season, albeit rough around the edges. He is probably not ready to start at RT but who knows? You also have Jake Brendal at C and honestly I don't think you would get any drop off from Pouncey.

    So, here's this scenario - but I think there are several - say you have this on March 15 (start of the league year/free agency):

    LT - Tunsil
    LG - ?? (Asiata as development)
    C - ?? (Brendal as stop-gap; Pouncey on team but work to trade for a draft pick).
    RG - Davis, with competition - but Davis can also play RT (I would argue, again, as good or better than James)
    RT - ?? (with Eric Smith - or Davis - as potential here or back-up; along with Sam Young)

    Honestly, I would be happier with that situation than any other.

    At the start of free agency you look for a quality OL or two (we were interested in several last year). At any of OG, C, RT. You could go for a high quality player at RT or OG, and another, lesser quality player at another spot (say, a Jonathan Cooper type - who has really performed well for the Cowboys - certainly much better than any of our OGs!). You could easily fill two positions early - which leaves one open - or say, two open but you have some potential fillers in each.

    Then, in the draft, you go after a top level interior OL (OG or C) - Personally, I really like Billy Price but there are others - fairly early (ideally 2nd round; a stretch for 1st). Then come back in the 4th with another OL (we have two picks; we might be fortunate and get more in that area with a Pouncey trade) - say a Braden Smith (who can play RT or RG). You've accumulated three to four new linemen with the ones left and you have good competition as well as a lot of potential. And, you will have saved $16 M with the release/trade of Pouncey & James; perhaps using half or slightly more of that for 1-2 free agents. But, you also have revamped; and started a strong rebuild on the OL without the baggage of another soft year of James on a bad contract. James was never worth a 1st round pick and should not be overpaid as one next year.

    This would be an ideal scenario and I think it should be a way to go.
     
  2. LI phinfan

    LI phinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Great thoughts and write up, Thanks for taking the time and effort. Important question, Do you have any thoughts who should be hired to coach this group? And would that coach bring in something else besides a zone blocking scheme? Or is that essential for what Gase is trying to run? Thanks!
     
  3. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    I dont agree with your assessment of James. He is actually the best performing lineman on the team right now, definitely the best run blocker. PFF rated him top 20 among all tackles this year, he was our highest rated lineman. Getting a top tackle in free agency for less than 9 million is not going to happen unless you pick up a guy who is a downgrade from James.

    The trading pouncey thing I agree with if we can get a 4th rounder for him.

    As for the two guard spots I would sign the best guard available in free agency and then draft the best guard available in the draft.

    Brendel, Smith, Davis, asiata and the rest of the guys on the team right now other than tunsil are not starting material. I let them fight it out for backup spots.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2017
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  4. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Agree, I think this should be the first order of business making sure we have a good and proven oline coach. We have suffered for years because of crappy oline coaches who don't know how to develop players.
     
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  5. Dolphin Dundee

    Dolphin Dundee Well-Known Member

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    We need to think outside the box.How about an all Sumo line? Find Japans 6 best Sumos pay them each 2 million a year and all the egg rolls they can eat...Done
     
  6. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    Thanks, man!

    I don't have a great idea about an OL coach at this point - though you are spot on that we need a new one, with some fresh input and potential. I also think, as you note, that Gase's offense is geared toward a zone blocking scheme - most offenses now have that in some capacity now. But, we also mix it up depending on the play call. I would look for a somewhat experienced assistant coach from a team that has an effective OL but also has similar blocking schemes. In that light, a few of names I'd consider, who've had some successful OLs:

    Mike Sullivan, Titans assistant OL (run inside ZBS). http://www.titansonline.com/team/coaches/Sullivan_Mike/bac7775f-ff95-43b6-99b1-1546e46309b0

    Marc Colombo, Cowboys Assistant OL coach (run inside ZBS) http://www.dallascowboys.com/team/coaches/roster/marc-colombo

    Eugene Chung, Eagles Assistant OL/Tight Ends/Run Game coach (also coached with KC). http://www.philadelphiaeagles.com/team/coaches/eugene-chung/ab7dd46b-6959-4e38-9950-e43a3256591b

    Kyle Flood, Falcons Assistant OL (lots of experience). http://www.atlantafalcons.com/team/coaches/Kyle-Flood/8eef55b9-62d2-4dc8-8e9a-f02277e4cfc1

    Tony Sparano, Jr., Jaguars Assistant OL (ZBS/Hybrid; just one year experience and may not want to return to Miami).
     
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  7. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

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    Witchcraft.
     
  8. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I agree, James was playing very solid football when he got hurt. The last thing you do when you're having line problems is trade/cut someone that's a day 1 starter. The same goes for Pouncey, although he's not as dominant as he once was, he's still a vocal leader in that group and I feel like he's more valuable than people realize. I'd keep him as well.

    So I think we're set at starting center and tackle...although we definitely need better backups at T. That's the big thing so far- someone gets hurt and the dropoff is pretty extreme.

    The challenge I see is at both guard spots. Asiata should work into that rotation eventually and I feel like he's a long-term answer. But when? That brings us to the big problem, the real issue- coaching and discipline. The false start penalties are from not being comfortable out there and that has to change. Most of our sacks come from missed assignments as well, which is both a good and a bad thing. It's good because your guys aren't getting beat (they're beating themselves by being out of position) but it's also bad because they're not getting the playbook down for whatever reason. So I think the biggest possible line upgrade we can make is in the coaching phases.

    Honestly, I don't know if we need to replace anyone at this point since the line all comes down to scheme and execution....its entirely possible that we already have our starting five and our 2-3 main backups in the rotation. I mean, we just went two weeks before the NE contest with 2 total sacks and a fairly good looking run game, so the potential is certainly there. It all comes down to executing and understanding what the defense is doing. We can't keep doubling the C gap only to let a linebacker waltz through the B...stuff like that it what's killing us more than anything. It's mental errors and often at the worst possible times, which usually points to coaching or dumb athletes. But when they do have great games as a unit, that sort of rules the dumb theory out and says that these guys just aren't being led by a competent leader.

    For instance, everyone was amazed at the turnaround last season in offensive line play after week five....that was 100% coaching and much better preparation. We really just need that leader in the room to steer these guys and I think we're going to be okay.
     
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  9. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    I think the PFF rankings can be helpful when you're looking at the top 10 / bottom 10. James being 20th or so, doesn't mean he really is in the top 20 OTs. And, while he is the highest rated OL for Miami this year, that's not saying much. Tunsil has been rough in his 1st year at LT but of course, he has way more potential there and is young. James has been soft in the run game and I think he's been inconsistent even when healthy.

    I'm not insistent on his being moved, for me it's a "lean." He could have a great season given he'll be a free agent. But, still, $9 Million is a bit pricey. I suspect, however, that the team will keep him. They have a propensity to keep their own players - that doesn't mean that's a good thing, however. We way over paid for both Branch and Alonso. They get way too much for what they are worth. Branch has been awful. So, just keeping your own guys at several million per is not always a good thing.
     
  10. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Here's my problem with PFF...and it's a HUGE ONE. Run blocking is almost solely graded on how far a running back carries the football. Yet for the first five games, we had a RB who ignored the holes his team made and tried to run the 29 sweep. That means almost half of our line's total grade is based on Ajayi getting tackled in the backfield 15+ times a game. And I'm sorry, that's complete BS.

    It would be like you getting fired from work because your supervisor got caught in the bathroom watching porn. It has nothing to do with you.
     
  11. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

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    Da Fins,

    I generally agree with your premise that James probably isn't worth what he will cost to keep, and Pouncy should be shopped. I think Pouncy is a ticking time bomb with injuries, and we would be better off getting rid of him one year too early than keeping him one year too late.

    The problem with axing these two players is that our line just got significantly worse.

    However, I do not agree with your solution. I really do not think that our backups serve as realistic solutions. My thoughts are that if they couldn't beat out the players on an already atrocious, they probably aren't the answer. I think the writing is on the wall with Asiata. He has not gotten a sniff of playing time, and I don't even recall him being active. Our line is bad. He is not active.... Hmmmm, he probably isn't very good.

    I absolutely agree that we need to draft, draft, draft again at oline. But this isn't Madden, we can't just stick a whole bunch of young guys at oline and call the problem solved. We probably need to bring in a vet or two to anchor the line. I think we should have overpaid for Leary or Zeitler last year. I think that this problem is affecting the rest of our offense as well as our player development. I don't think cost should deter us from fixing this in the offseason. Trai Turner is a guy that I would target.
     
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  12. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I'd much rather draft high impact players in the top 3 rounds of the draft.....DE, TE, OLB, RB....and attack our line in FA.
     
  13. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Key Pff does not grade based on how far the run went..
     
  14. Dolphin North

    Dolphin North Well-Known Member

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    I like some of the ideas above. I wouldn't mind seeing us without Pouncey making the line calls. I have a theory. But my new plan to fix our o-line is to draft Baker Mayfield.
     
  15. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    It does for run blocking, which makes up half the total OL grades. I'm pretty sure all the sites calculate run blocking based on RB performance- but I could be wrong there. I don't subscribe to PFF anymore.
     
  16. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don’t believe so... the grades for Oline are based on their matchup on the play and their execution, not the result
     
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  17. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    A) And how has that worked out for us (e.g., last year, and every year for the last 25?)? Horribly.

    B) More importantly, OL is every bit as "high impact" as those positions. To say that DE/OLB is "high impact" and the OL is not, is entirely inconsistent. Because if you don't have great blockers to block the DE, OLB, you are not going to be effective offensively.

    The most high impact position in the NFL is QB (and lets throw RB into the mix as you have above). Neither one of those can be high impact players without great OL play - unless you are a scrambler.

    Just, for one of many examples, look at Prescott - also a good runner - in Dallas when Tyrone Smith and another OL went down with injuries. Sacks went up, the running game faltered, and Dallas offense sucked. When their OL got healthy, they smoked the Redskins (even without a "high impact" RB in Elliott). Same with Miami. Until they get a solid OL for the long-term, they will falter as a team.
     
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  18. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    A) How has drafting 1st round talent gone for the line? I mean we had more of them starting then FA pick ups.....Regardless, that doesn't mean the plan was flawed, just the execution.

    B) Semantics. And no, one good olineman will rarely have the impact of a equally good DE, TE, RB, etc. Especially a guard.
     
  19. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    OL generally neutralize 1, maybe 2 people per play. A good DE can neutralize 11. Nobody is saying the line isn't necessary, but you insinuate that every position save maybe QB is equally high impact. That's ... just not the case.
     
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  20. ExplosionsInDaSky

    ExplosionsInDaSky Well-Known Member

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    I just saw the name Colombo while scrolling through this and had a violent flashback about the Marc Colombo tackle that played horrifically while he was here.
    I think Tunsil and James are definitely worth keeping around. Maybe we can get something out of Jesse Davis, but I honestly think we need to once again, try to find a mainstay in the draft.
     
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  21. gilv13

    gilv13 Well-Known Member

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  22. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    Why not? It's not required that you play the game at a HOF level to coach. Does he know scheme and technique, and can he impart that to youngsters? If so, then he's good.
     
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  23. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I don't think his playing ability factors into him being a coach.

    The only thing that makes me question his abilities as an online coach is that the success of the Cowboys oline, should be credited to the fact they are all first round draft picks (basically) and then the actual line coach, before Columbo should get credit.

    Honestly, I don't think it is much of an accomplishment to get that line playing well.
     
  24. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think the focus this off-season has to be on the interior of the line. Miami doesn't feature anybody between the Tackles who can be counted on to play at a high level. Pouncey's getting bullied this season while the Guard-play on both sides has been below-average. While I think the removal of Bushrod will do a lot, both LG and RG are still positions that need improvement. Davis and Larsen are the sorts of names that should be in a conversation about depth. If either is starting next season it's a sign there's still work to do.

    Thankfully, I think the both Tackle positions are adequately filled for 2018. I wouldn't get nervous about Tunsil unless he had some real problems in his 3rd season, which I doubt will be the case. I see him iron out the wrinkles in his game next year (fingers crossed). Meanwhile, James is the kind of player you want at RT. The problem is cost. I suggested in Club that I think this team might have to choose between overpaying for a RT and overpaying for a slot WR. I think keeping James, at least for 2018, gives you solidarity and keeps the performance of both Tackle positions at an acceptable level.

    The question is what's out there in Free Agency and how high do you pick in the draft to start filling spots?

    If Miami has a top-10 pick, they're not taking an interior lineman. That's a given. And with picks at the top of the 2nd, 3rd and 4th rounds I think Miami can pick up at least 1 if not a couple competent prospects. There's even the possibility of trading down into the latter stages of the 1st round and picking maybe the best C/G in the draft while adding an additional mid-round selection. If we're talking about rebuilding the O-line, that's probably the best alternative. It just depends who's on the board. Miami could use defensive help.

    My attitude about drafting O-line highly is that it needs to be worth it. Dallas's situation looks great because they hit on the best LT in football as well as some great interior linemen and one of the best young RBs in the draft. They also have competent QB play and a couple weapons on the outside that keep defenses from stacking the box.

    You could convince me that Miami has the QB-play and that the RB talent is solid and that Stills is someone who DC's have to keep in mind, but I don't think Miami has to start pouring 1st round picks into LG, C and RG anytime soon. What they need are solid players. They don't necessarily need to spend their highest picks on getting the most elite prospects. Besides, I don't think Gase is going to turn this offense into a smash-mouth thing anytime soon.
     
  25. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    Here's a thought. Name the OL coaches in the NFL, and tell us how many of them were great NFL linemen? After you do that, then comment. Until then, "don't even ................................" lol.

    Here's another opportunity. How about providing the name of arguably the top NFL line coach in the last twenty years who virtually revolutionized if not invented the zone blocking scheme on a team out west?

    And, after you name him, tell us how successful he was as a player in the NFL?

    Colombo, btw, is considered a very good coach.
     
  26. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    You mean like Jonathan Cooper? He's been such a beast for so many years, you're right, he doesn't even need good coaching.

    Secondly, O-lines need talent (which undermines your other argument about not drafting one high - especially since several of those were 1st rounders - Smith, Fredrickson, Martin). But, they also need to be able to function well as a unit - which requires good coaching. Every NFL line coach will tell you that you need smart talented players who then need to be well coached to get five individuals to function as one.

    The problem with your first point - the actual line coach - is that you can say that about any assistant at a position. So, basically, you always point to an assistant that a team may want to hire at a promoted position (e.g., OL coach to OC; QB coach to OC; DB coach to DC; etc. - which is the only way to hire an assistant), and argue that it's the guy in front of him that is doing the good job, not the assistant.

    With that logic, you should never higher an assistant to a promoted position. Of course, you have no idea what the contribution Colombo is making.

    But, that also points out another significant problem in your logic. When you hire an assistant (say, a QB coach to be an OC; or an assistant OL coach to be the primary OL coach) you are going to have to interview the coach but the key thing you want to know is whether he learned under the quality coach. Nearly all OCs / DCs were position coaches; and nearly all position coaches were assistant coaches. Your argument here, carried to its logical outcome - means you should never hire an assistant since its the position coach who is making the unit work. But, in reality, your logic is flawed because the point of hiring assistant LB coaches, assistant DB coaches, etc. to become primary positional coaches is that you are hoping they learned under the primary coach (e.g., assistant LB coach learning under a quality LB coach; or a LB / DB coach learning under a quality DC). No one is able to judge how well the assistant LB coach is at his job. You simply put together a list of quality positions on other teams, look at the position coach, and then interview the guy.

    So, that's why you interview. Hopefully spelling this out for you will alleviate some of the internal bias you have in these posts - because you've already made your mind up to be opposed to this, rather than having objectivity.
     
  27. gilv13

    gilv13 Well-Known Member

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    I'm happy for him.
     
  28. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

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    I absolutely agree with this. I fundamentally think that if a team has a top 10 pick, they should try and draft a playmaker.

    Here is the problem with philosophy vs. reality. I have absolutely no confidence that our front office can find mid to late round talent. Simply put, we have tried and failed multiple times. We need to draft the Mel Kiper guy on the offensive line. Essentially, we need to take the guy that is a consensus solid player.

    I definitely think that we will have to sign a vet or two, but it is not fiscally possible to build an entire line via free agency.
     
  29. JPPT1974

    JPPT1974 2022 Mother's Day and May Flowers!

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    Yeah as really Kiper knows what he is doing. And a player that is not just solid but is very or can play hurt no matter what. Unless it is endangering his career and even life. But really a vet would be a great mentor.
     
  30. dirtylandry

    dirtylandry Well-Known Member

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    Miami's an opportunity to shed a bunch of salary with a combination of cuts on both sides of the ball, except for WR, LB and the Secondary. With the money, they need to invest in the line, but instead of splashes, that need tons of transactions and depth. If this team can build their trenches , be able to run and pass block and stop the run and have a decent pass rush, the other pieces are in place
     
  31. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    I think we need a tackle to move Tunsil to G and then need to find another G and C. I’m fine with James. He’s not elite but he’s the best we got right now. No reason to create another hole while we fill others.
     
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  32. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    First of all, I didn't address you with any attitude at all, so I'm not sure why you decided to approach this with douchiness oozing from every paragraph.

    Secondly, you admonish me for not knowing how much Columbo had to do with anything, yet you want him to be our line coach while you yourself also don't know how much he had to do with the line's success. I merely questioned if he was the right move, you think he should be a target. One of us is making assumptions.

    Third, again, I was merely questioning his abilities as a coach, not picking him or blasting him. So yes, YOU DAMN WELL should question any assistant coach of a successful unit. Why wouldn't you?

    Fourth, at no point did I say you don't interview. One last time, all I did was question how much he had to do with Dallas' line success. Nothing more. You decided to take that simple and logical question, and turn it into a paragraphs long clinic on passive aggressive ridiculousness. Gratz I guess.
     

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