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Charles Harris

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by danmarino, Dec 7, 2017.

  1. slickj101

    slickj101 Is Water

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    Probably closer to the bluest glass.
     
  2. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    That was darn poetic...I wouldn't have come up with that. =)
     
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  3. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    It's not excuses. You just simply cannot compare the two since they are not getting a comparable amount of snaps. Cincy does have a lot more depth at DE than we do. Carl Lawson who was a fourth rounder is tearing it up and getting most of the pass rush opportunities.

    Fact is Charles Harris has gotten a ton more pass rush opportunities than Willis and still produced less.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
  4. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    What are his pressure numbers per snap vs the other rookies
     
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  5. Dolphin North

    Dolphin North Well-Known Member

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    I disagree with the part about stats. I find there are almost too many stats used here. Seems like people bring out stats at the drop of a hat and expect everyone to ignore what they see as it cannot stand up statistically. You and I both know a very knowledgeable former QB who will use some stats at times, but will also say first and foremost, what? "Trust your eyes." I think there's room for both. You can often find stats to say what you need them to say and I think it is often done by accident as people look for statistical backup for what they want to believe. Conversely, you can also see what you want to see and may ignore the plays or games that disprove what you are hoping to see over time. Have to have a balance between stats and empirical evidence IMO.
    But I agree with your second paragraph. Too much arguing that seems more caused by who is making a post rather than what they said. Clearly a lot of water under some bridges here and a handful of people need a change, because it will never be resolved. But they all seem to want to win arguments so badly that they probably all feel like the first one who leaves would be the loser, not the winner. Although I have no stats to back that up, it's just an opinion based on what I have witnessed here for the past few months.:)
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
  6. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    We talked about Harris a good bit last year on the other forum and we kind of laughed at how much a few people there reacted to the Harris pick. I'm still not in love with him and I believe it's way too early to pass judgement either way, HOWEVER I will always root hard for high character players who try to make themselves and their team better. To me, Dion Jordan is a good comparison to Harris....both elite agility, elite physical characteristics with very big motors. Jordan set himself up for failure though almost from day one, while Harris has done exactly the opposite.

    I personally can't say whether Harris was a great pick or a horrible one, but I do see a kid that's playing hard and trying to learn as much as possible to be even better. His field time is based on production as well so it's not like the Fins are just handing him minutes- he's competing out there and trying to make plays. And for me, that's enough 12 games into his career....I don't necessarily need to see stats at all. You know me well enough to know that I trust my eyes over everything else anyway.
     
  7. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    So what? Michael Strahan only had one sack his rookie year as a top ten pick...how’d that work out? Jason Taylor only had 5 sacks year one and regressed to 2.5 in year 3...that worked out well. It’s a silly premise to base future predictions based on not even a full season. You’re also basing it entirely on sacks and Harris in fact has a pretty good rate for pressures, so he’s struggling with something many rookies struggle with and that is getting home that split second earlier. It’s like you’re more concerned with being right then you are the Dolphins success or giving a rookie any time to develop.
     
  8. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    You are right I can't say for sure whether he will be a disappointment or not in the long term. All I can say is as of right now he has been disappointing for a first round pick and has been the worst performer out of all of the top edge defenders coming out of this year's draft. I didn't like us picking him in the first round. He has too many flaws to have been our first pick. His mediocre college production came exclusively against scrub tackles and subpar competition. All he has is a quick first step off the snap and a nice spin move which does not work against good tackles. He is quick in a short area but slow in pursuit as evidenced by his 4.82 40 which is pedestrian. He is also undersized and not very strong or powerful. These are the reasons why he is not getting there for the sack.

    I like that he has a good work ethic and is eager to learn, however I think his ceiling is limited by his paltry strength to speed ratio. The SS ratio is what makes guys like Jason Taylor and cam wake great. Harris is just not on the same level with them physically and I don't think he ever will be. He could become a decent producer in the league as he learns more techniques and gets stronger, but I don't think he will ever be a dominant pass rusher like wake or taylor.
     
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  9. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I agree with a lot of this..ftr, I didnt think he would be a bust I just had other players I wanted to target, but One thing that gives him a chance to prove us wrong is this very mature demeanor, work ethic, and true desire to be the best..
     
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  10. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

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    This is so true.I really have zero to desire to even post anymore because of this.
     
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  11. dirtylandry

    dirtylandry Well-Known Member

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    It all depends I guess on what Miami wanted in year 1. There were clearly more needs for an impact player on the line, but they chose patience and the future with Harris. And Harris could become special in years to come, but it was decisions like this, combined with others on the offense this offseason, that didn't allow us to keep up the momentum from last season
     
  12. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    The line had nothing to do with us losing offensive momentum. Like 90% of the teams out there through time, we lost momentum when we lost our starting QB.

    The teams that don't lose momentum when they lose their starter are few and far between.
     
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  13. dirtylandry

    dirtylandry Well-Known Member

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    you didn't read my post (again). I clearly said other decisions on the offense that didn't allow us to keep up the momentum. Why they didn't choose surgery or have a qb in house earlier, is beyond belief. Even if it was Cutler, it would have been better if he was here in March than in Aug
     
  14. Phins_to_Win

    Phins_to_Win Well-Known Member

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    Not taking a side on the debate, but I want more then this from a 1st rd pick. Honestly, if he has this exact season next year are we okay with that? I'm not saying he is a bust, just that he needs to be more then a nameless contributor.

    He was brought in as a pass rushing specialist. He needs to have stronger individual stats. At this point I would say he is not playing up to his draft position. However, he was also not a top 10 pick so there really shouldn't be expectation for him to be a world beater at this stage of his career.

    I would rank him as a mild disappointment for this season. I'm hoping for a nice jump in his skill sets next year.
     
  15. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    This is the key. (Pun intended) I have yet to see anyone proclaim Harris as an all-pro or future HoF'er. I have, however, seen people call him a bust or no good.

    You have to be able to be objective even when a player wasn't "your guy". You're able to do that. Harris wasn't my first pick. I wanted Peppers, Takk, Hooker, Howard, or Watt. I figured some of those guys would be out of our reach, but I was hoping. When Harris' name was called I was really surprised. Not because I hated the pick, but because I had not done much research on the guy. I had heard of him and saw some of his highlight reels, but nothing in-depth. (Not that my in-depth work is any good mind you, but it's something other than "because I said so")

    Anyhow, once I heard his name I immediately started reading about him and watching him play. He's an extremely athletic DE. He reminded me a lot of JT, and who wouldn't be happy to have another JT? Now to top it off he seems bright, motivated, hard working, and tenacious. He's a high character guy with the tools to succeed. I like his chances on being a long time, pro bowl caliber player.

    The facts are, Harris is living up to his draft position. He's not blowing up the NFL, but please point out which rookie DE is? Garrett and Thomas, the 1st and 3rd overall picks in the draft, have something like 2-3 more sacks, but they've actually started more games and both play on teams with a combined record of 2wins and 22 losses. Even that "stat" can make a difference in how each player is utilized. A "nothing to lose" mentality can sometimes benefit individual stats. (I just looked Garrett has 5 sacks and 13 tackles. Solomon has 2 sacks and 25 tackles, Harris has 1 sack and 10 tackles. But again, we're talking 1st and 3rd vs 22nd overall.) And look at Jonathan Allen, who was picked 17th overall. 1 sack and 3 tackles. Having some perspective and objectivity can go a long way in grading a player. Declaring "bust" based upon hurt feelings because "he wasn't your guy" is obtuse and counterproductive.
     
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  16. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    I think everyone wished he had come in and had 10 sacks at this point. That's not realistic. I read an article the other day talking about how it usually takes a DE one or two seasons to break out due to the complexity of the NFL. The stats aren't current from this article from Nov 17th, but look at this:

    • 3rd pick, Solomon Thomas (86th edge): 8 games, 2 sacks, 22 tackles
    • 14th pick, Derek Barnett (48th edge): 9 games, 2.5 sacks, 13 tackles
    • 17th pick, Jonathan Allen (38th inside): 5 games, 1 sack, 3 tackles
    • 22nd pick, Charles Harris (62nd edge): 9 games, 1 sack, 8 tackles
    • 26th pick, Takk McKinley (36th edge): 9 games, 2 sacks, 9 tackles
    • 28th pick, Taco Charlton (91st edge): 9 games, 1 sack, 5 tackles

    Also from the article:

    "J.J. Watt had 5.5 sacks as a rookie; then 20.5 as a sophomore. Two of Harris’ mentors are former Dolphins great and Hall of Famer Jason Taylor, and current Dolphins rush end Cameron Wake.
    Taylor had 5.0 sacks as a rookie, followed by 9.0, 2.5 and then — boom! — 14.5 and Taylor’s career took off.
    Wake had a career-low 5.5 sacks as a rookie and then — boom! — 14.0 and Wake’s career took off.
    Harris hasn’t boomed yet, but it’s way too early to say he won’t."

    http://dailydolphin.blog.palmbeachp...u-shouldnt-panic-about-charles-harris-1-sack/


    Some will look at these numbers and scream, "Those guys had 5 sacks in their rookie season and Harris has one". Well, "those guys" are current and future HoF'ers (at least IMMO Wake should get in)
     
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  17. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    40 time has little to do with pass rush skills which are more about the 10 yard split, hand usage and leverage. Derek Barnett ran a 4.88 and plays a wide 9 like Harris. Based on your premise he shouldnt be having success but he is. Even his 10 yard split is slower then Harris (1.68 to 1.65 for Harris). The 10 yard split Harris ran was on par with Myles Garrett and .02 slower then Soloman Thomas. Only Carl Lawson (1.60) and Jordan Willis (1.57) really stood out there early for me. Harris though had some intrigue as i liked him more then guys like Fish Taco Charlton but i didnt quite like him as much as Barnett or Willis who i thought would go in the same area. The production and level of competition (youre spot on regarding the production vs weaker players) worried me.

    The biggest thing imo to keep in mind with Harris is that hes still relatively new to the game. He didnt start playing til late in high school and came out as a JR. Hes only been playing for 4 or 5 years. I think theres upside there but it may take a year or two. I also think hes better suited for a 34 edge rusher position like a Carl Lawson if you want immediate results. His size/first step lend itself to that. Another thing though is that he was labled as a weak run defender coming out and i think hes been cognizant of that label because he seems to work hard at it.

    Long term i have a wait and see approach there. He was neither a prospect i loved or hated coming out and sometimes pass rushers take time. Typically, yes i like better measureables from my DEs but guys with a high motor and slower times can still be successful if they have good moves, technique and drive
     
  18. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    No I read it.

    You attributed the lack of momentum, in part, to the line.

    I replied the line had no part in it.

    For future reference, any poster is allowed to object to the whole or just a part of post.

    You're welcome.
     
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  19. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    The part I emphasized is 100% false... lol
     
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  20. dirtylandry

    dirtylandry Well-Known Member

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    I was very clear by addressing the line first, then other parts of the offense, that I was done with the line. Your issue is you want to interpret others' posts for what you want it to be, vs what their intent is.

    you are very welcome
     
  21. dirtylandry

    dirtylandry Well-Known Member

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    how was he at setting the edge against the run? Or does he mostly play passing downs? To me a first rd DE plays all three downs
     
  22. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    Yeah...no.

    Charles Harris has enough strength at 22 years old to throw 34 year old Donald Penn to the ground. When he starts using his length more, he's going to be a force pic.twitter.com/Ho9KuLebWV
    — Ian Wharton (@NFLFilmStudy) November 7, 2017

    Now, I'm sure you'll just come back with "Ian Wharton" is wrong, but tell me why he's wrong.
     
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  23. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    He's comparable, as a rookie, to Wake in regards to defending the run.
     
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  24. dirtylandry

    dirtylandry Well-Known Member

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    Wake is horrible. And now you know why we are horrible at the run.
     
  25. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    If you weren't saying the line played a part in losing momentum, then no, you weren't clear about it.
     
  26. dirtylandry

    dirtylandry Well-Known Member

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    oh I was clear. We all know your issues at reading posts
     
  27. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    Wake isn't "horrible", but he is below average according to PFF.

    In the eye test Wake is about average in regards to run defense. So is Harris. Harris does lock on to the QB and overrun the play too much, but he's not being fooled, he's trusting his speed too much because he's used to making those types of plays when he was much better than college tackles. Once he settles in I think he'll be fine.
     
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  28. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Well, the week was good while it lasted.
     
  29. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    That is an overstatement.
     
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  30. Phins_to_Win

    Phins_to_Win Well-Known Member

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    I agree it will take a few years to know what we have. But when you look at snap counts I think he is struggling to have an impact this year.

    Defensive snaps:
    Harris has 390 avg a tackle every 49 snaps

    Solomon has 502 avg a tackle every 23 snaps
    Derek Barnett has 346 avg a tacke every 27 snaps
    Jonathan Allen has 159 avg a tackle every 53 snaps
    Takkarist has 322 avg a tackle every 36 snaps
    Taco has 283 average a tackle every 57 snaps

    All of them have a better snap to sack ratio then Harris, however with such a low number of sacks I don't put a lot of stock into that right now.

    He isn't way below the norm, but I wouldn't say statistically he has had a good rookie season.
     
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  31. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    It is a fact he has been the worst performer out of all the top edge rushers in this year's draft. Only Taco who I also didnt like could arguably be declared worse so far. Jonathan Allen (who I also thought was overrated) and Solomon Thomas are not edge rushers so I would not include them in this comparison. Danmarino included them probably to try and make Harris look a little better. They are 3-4 de or 4-3 DT types not edge guys. You should instead include guys like TJ watt (5 sacks) and Carl Lawson (7.5 sacks) in the comparison who are true edge rushers and are outperforming harris by a mile despite being picked well after him.
     
  32. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    PFF grades because I know some here use them as gospel.

    Carl Lawson: Against the run 44, Against the pass 85

    TJ Watt: Against the run 76, Against the pass 55

    Charles Harris: Against the run 47, Against the pass 73


    So, Harris is better against the run than Lawson and better against the pass than Watt.

    "Worst performer"...... puhleese.....
     
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  33. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    Cherry picking stats to make a point is not going to lead to any great conclusions.

    Last year Tannehill had a 67% comp rate. Carson Wentz is at 62%... ergo: RT>Wentz....."It is a fact"...
     
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  34. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    Oh, and Harris has more tackles than Lawson. Harris is better. It is a fact!

    TJ Watt has more INT's than Von Miller. TJ is better. It is a fact!
     
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  35. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Lol, you love pff when you can pick and choose their ratings when it fits your agenda. Why don't you give the overall ratings and stats?

    TJ watt: overall PFF rating of 73.1, 38 tackles, 5 sacks and 1 int so far this season. He was picked 30th overall, 8 picks after we chose harris and is outproducing him by a lot.

    Carl Lawson: overall PFF rating of 82.3, 12 tackles, 7.5 sacks so far this season. He was a 4th round pick and is outproducing harris by a mile.

    Charles Harris: Overall pff rating of 71.2, 13 tackles, just 1 sack so far this season. He was picked 22nd overall.

    So as you can see Charles Harris is in fact one of the worst performing edge rushers of this year's draft. Getting outplayed by 4th rounders. Only Taco charlton could arguably be declared worse so far.
     
  36. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    No way man....good=sacks and sacks=good...there can be no other way to determine how good a DE is...Well, that and PFF....lol
     
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  37. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Oh so now we are going to pretend like actual tackles and sacks dont matter? Even in that one game JT, had multiple TFLs, harris has only two for the whole season despite gitting tons of snaps.
     
  38. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    BTW:

    Snap %

    Watt as been in 76% of all the Steelers defensive snaps.

    Harris 49%
     
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  39. dirtylandry

    dirtylandry Well-Known Member

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    I think the bigger picture here is we needed more impact players this year. who could we have gotten that would have helped us win more games? I understand the investment based on Wake's age, but then why sign Branch?
     
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  40. dirtylandry

    dirtylandry Well-Known Member

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    in the offseason, we have to learn to generate pressure, w/o blitzing. We may have to add someone, but the crew is set based on un-cuttable contracts, with Kiko, Branch, Suh and Harris. You do have some cap savings with Suh, but you also have like a $20M dead cap hit. The only real savings is Wake at $9M. I don't believe in Burke long-term. We need a guy that knows how to dial them up and be creative. Get Sexy Rexy on the phone
     
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