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***Official All Things Tannehill Thread***

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Fin D, Dec 28, 2017.

  1. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    This is just silly. I don't want to turn this into a Mike Wallace thread but this is just a poor explanation.

    You are also citing the Panthers game? Really? Just watch THAT game and you will see that on that day, Wallace was forced to make very good play's adjusting to the ball because the throws were off target.



    Goto the 1:10 mark and you will see 2 play's. I will tell you what I see and you tell me what you see.

    Play #1 - Wallace behind the defense (where we paid him to be) Ryan rolls out and all things considered doesn't make a BAD throw, but Mike does a good job at slowing his route and adjusting (wait thought he couldn't do that)

    Play #2 - This time Wallace is a full 5 yards behind the defender, Ryan has a clean pocket, sets his feet and frankly makes a bad pass that Wallace bails him out on, by doing????? Wait......ADJUSTING. That should be 7 points and it would've been 7 points with the Tannehill of today, but back then? Not so much.

    This is just the game YOU wanted to bring up by the way. On the 2nd to last play I have always said Ryan did about as well as he could getting the ball in the vicinity, but to ask a WR to turn his head away from the ball to go form right to left is not some easy task. IF he would've caught it? It would've been a great catch, but I think he was all out of those on that day.

    Would like to hear your opinion on the above.
     
  2. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    This is spot on. But some members have said as recently as a week ago that the deep balls were almost ALL on Wallace. Now I get that extremists gonna extreme, but don't misinterpret my posts as relieving Wallace, or the OL for that matter as having their name in that hat also.

    Their issues were evident in year 1, but both deserve a ton of credit for the strides they made in 2014. Mike had DD Td's and Ryan had like a 121 rating when throwing to him, so something was certainly working that year.
     
  3. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

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    In 4 seasons with the steelers Wallace had 27 passes over 40yds.With the phins he had 7 in 3 seasons.
    The difference was the qb.I will admit his long ball was much better last year but this Wallace argument is wrong.
     
  4. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    1. No one said he "couldn't do that." Aren't you always complaining about people misrepresenting what you say? Further, YOU said he was poor at it...now you want to argue he's not poor at it?

    2. My issue with Wallace and his adjustments is that, unlike receivers who are good at adjusting, Wallace just runs as fast as he can, and only adjusts at the end of the route. Those two throws aren't great...HOWEVER, devil's advocate, do you know where Wallace was supposed to be? Maybe he was maybe he wasn't. Secondly, Wallace SHOULD HAVE adjusted his speed earlier so as to not have to come to a stop. That's what I refer to often in regards to Wallace not being good at adjusting.
     
  5. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    Ummm. How football works is you beat your man.

    Are you saying he beat him too fast?

    And you just harped on Wallace for like 3 things and you think tossing in “those throws weren’t great” is a disclaimer that you aren’t bias.
     
    djphinfan likes this.
  6. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I'm not harping. You portray it as such, since you have defended him for years. I AGREED with YOUR assessments that he has a small catch radius and is poor at adjusting. YOU said those two things. I further clarified my position on his adjustments being that he doesn't adjust during his route.

    So, yes, he ran too fast. He should have found the ball sooner, and slowed up. He didn't. Tannehill underthrew him, but Wallace, while making a good play at the end, did not do a good job at adjusting to the play as it unfolded.
     
  7. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Here we go.

    You struggle around here too, Sport. You aren't beloved you know. I have a problem with a very specific set of posters with a very specific approach to things and you, your problems extend far beyond that. You telling me how to behave is like Dirty Landry teaching people how to make intelligent posts. Extreme.

    World class speed has NOTHING to do with catching the football. The fact that you can't wrap your mind around that very simple and common sense thing calls into question not just your football acumen but.....let's just say, many other things....Extreme.

    Numerous people from no ones like myself to actual former scouts to gurus of this site have explained, in detail, the problem with Wallace and you ignore it all and act like I'm the only one telling you something different. Extreme.

    So, once again, we have you saying others are extreme when you yourself have taken an extreme stance, backed by nothing, all while telling others how to act even though you piss a wide variety of people off.....and you're doing all of that without a single stitch of self realization. Extreme.
     
  8. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    The simple fact of the matter is that Wallace sucks in timing based offenses because of his small catch radius and trouble tracking the ball. It is why his last year in Pitt was exactly on par with his first year in Miami...Pitt switched to a timing based offense that year. The problem s with the deep ball and Wallace were not 100% on Thill, but the argument has been that it is mostly on Thill because after all, Wallace runs fast. It is stupid and EXTREME.

    The problem broke down more like this:

    Wallace 50%
    Oline not giving Thill time: 20%
    Poor play design and calling: 15%
    Thill: 15%

    That isn't extreme.
     
  9. seekerone

    seekerone Member

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    Good point. I like Ryan, and want to see him explode back on the scene in 2018. That said, the thing that bothers me is he loses the eye of the tiger when the cards are down sometimes. He gets the eye of the lost soul at times, sooner than he should. I get that it feels hopeless sometimes and then the coach calls a run up the middle on a 3rd and 2 and your gut tells you, and you can see they are gonna cram the box. You can sense it. Heck the fans can sense it. You know it's time to do something. Take the reigns and be the leader in THOSE situations. It's risky, but do you think Ben Roethlisberger got to be Big Ben by not taking risks? Coaches may yell, especially if you eff it up. But that's where you need to have the right relationship. Ryan seems to have that with Gase. And if Gase's patience with other players (Ajayi) is any indication, there's a bit of rope to use. Just don't hang yourself with it.
     
  10. DHitchens

    DHitchens Active Member

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    Wallace thrives when the quarterback sheds pass-rushers and buys time for him to break coverage with his speed, which eliminates his problems with route-running and focus. Wallace and a timing-based offense are like oil and water.
     
    Fin D likes this.
  11. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Exactly. He was great with Big Rape (or would have been with a Marino or a Favre, etc.). Those are more sandlot type offenses were you throw to where your man WILL be. In a timing based offense you're throwing to where the man SHOULD be. That's why poor route running and small catch radius caused problems:

    [​IMG]

    The left side illustrates what happened with Wallace, the right bottom illustrates what happens with Stills.
     
    seekerone likes this.
  12. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/miami-dolphins/84185733-132.html

    Ryan knew it was an issue, we know a coach came in and I quote "finally taught him how to throw deep" you can see the noticeable change in release point on these types of passes from then to now.

    I'm just glad Ryan doesn't think like some of the people here and have a victim mentality.

    Props to 17 for recognizing and working on a flaw.
     
    shamegame13 likes this.
  13. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    When a person resorts to "victim mentality" or "reasons = excuses" it is because their point is terrible an they are beat and know it.

    There was time when you wouldn't admit Wallace was poor at route running or had a small catch radius. Then you'd admit he had those things, but it didn't affect anything. No doubt, if Ryan lights up the league, you'll change your tune again and swear you never said Thill was to blame for the Wallace stuff. Count it.
     
  14. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    Timing based offenses have nothing to do with being able to lead or anticipate an open WR. They worked fine together on timing routes, but go look at those throws vs CAR....those had nothing to do with timing.
     
  15. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Of course timing based offense had nothing to do with it....that's why there was no drop off in 2012 with Big Rape....oh wait....I guess Rape forgot how to throw deep with the proper arc for one year.
     
  16. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    What Ryan does or has done has nothing to do with anything regarding Mike Wallace.

    And yes, if Ryan had the "woe is me" mentality then he wouldn't of put in the work and improve that part of his game.

    It's a huge part of why he has began to breakout, he's accountable.

    People who sit around and blame everyone else generally fail in life, Ryan is not failing because he busts his *** to get better and not wait around until the new popular thing to cry about pops up.
     
  17. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Yawn.

    You call reasons, discussions and debates on a forum: blame, excuses, crying. And you do it whilst blaming, making excuses and crying.

    Extreme.
     
  18. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    The difference was the offense went away from vertical to more of a WC offense and with the emergence of a young Antonio Brown its not hard to figure out why his deep targets decreased.

    Its not like Ben started under throwing the hell out of him on deep balls because of timing?

    This is a comical argument.

    So switching or running to a WC offense means your QB NO LONGER anticiaptes a guy blowing by a defender and leads him.....yea, funniest thing I've heard in a while.
     
  19. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

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    I guess his catch radius was larger in pitt!
    Just admitt if you can tannehills long ball sucked when we had Wallace and it improved since and then move on.
    27 passes over 40yds at pitt in 4 years compared to 7 in 3 years Don't lie no matter how you spin it.I watched numerous over throws and underthrows almost every game in those years.Tannehill left a lot of tds off the board.Last year the long ball was one of his strengths
     
    shamegame13 likes this.
  20. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    If i tell you I overslept by an hour, but the REASON was i forgot to set my alarm clock is that a reason or an excuse?
     
  21. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    It is a reason. If you want different treatment from your boss over it then you're an idiot. That's where you don't understand the difference.
     
  22. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I completely agree- it was very foolish to trade him UNLESS they have a young prospect that they expect to be even better. Garoppolo looks to be the next generation QB all of us are looking for...I would be shocked if he's not a perennial top 10. I mean, you take a winless team on a 4 game win streak within days of being signed? That just doesn't happen in this league.
     
  23. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Yeah, ok. WC offense isn't a timing based offense....sigh.
     
  24. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    You don't understand the discussion so that makes your post look silly.
     
  25. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    Exactly.

    And one thing they do by sticking with these weird excuses is actually take away credit to a QB who has put in the work to elevate his game.

    So he struggled anticipating deep throws to a guy with world class speed....so what, it is forgivable especially for a QB who had Zac Taylor trying to help him mechanically.

    So to me, while frustrating I'm willing to give him a pass for those struggles, but that doesn't mean he didn't struggle.
     
    pumpdogs likes this.
  26. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    Are you telling me versions of the WC offense aren't timing based?
     
  27. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    What? I'm saying all WC ARE timing based. You're the one saying timing based offense wasn't the problem.
     
  28. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

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    You know what's really silly?Your inability to ever admitt you are wrong.
    It's not people like the ones that got banned that are the problem.It's people like u and ur little click of friends that push people to their limits of patience.I wI'll not.let.that happen.
     
    Fin-O likes this.
  29. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    You are not understanding what I said.

    Yes, it was a timing based offense, but that didn't mean Big Ben stopped anticipating his getting open deep. The key difference in offenses were one guy loved to get vertical the other guy preferred methodical.

    IDC what offense you are in the goal is always to throw deep to a guy like Wallace with anticipation and lotsa air.

    You do not throw those routes based on "timing". Remember when Phiblin publicly said Tannehill needs to "just let it rip"? Is that a comment he would make if the basis around the issue was timing, because that wouldn't make any sense.

    It was an anticipation and mechanical issue on his end that he fixed.

    Alen1 was one of the best posters this site has ever seen, he didn't hate Ryan but he evaluated fairly and w/o bias, he broke down numerous anticipation issues that plagued Ryan early in his career. Those were real problem's not made up.

    The issues were what they were, but everyone should be excited that we are saying were and not are.
     
  30. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I've admitted when I was wrong numerous times actually.

    You haven't.
     
  31. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Earlier you said it had nothing to do with a timing based offense, yet Wallace in a timing based offense had similar stats in Pitt that he did with Thill in Miami.

    Let's look at those stats.....

    2011 in Pitt (pre WC timing based offense):
    72 catches/113 attempts for a catch rate of 63.7%
    18-20+yard receptions

    2012 in Pitt (post WC timing based offense):
    64 catches/119 attempts for a catch rate of 53.8%
    9-20+yard receptions

    2013 in Miami:
    73 catches/142 attempts for a catch rate of 51.4%
    11-20+yard receptions

    So it looks like, to me (and anyone else being honest) that a timing based offense severely affected Wallace's catch rate. The QB change barely registered a blip, yet the offense type caused a 10 point drop.

    None of that is affected by Brown btw, because Brown's targets shouldn't affect if Wallace catches the balls thrown his way.

    Now, if you want to say Big Rape was 2.4 percentage points better than Thill throwing the deep to Wallace in a timing based offense, ok, no problem.

    But these numbers clearly show the problem is Wallace is hard to throw to in timing based offense...regardless of the QB.
     
  32. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

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    Fin DDerp SherpaClub Member
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    You are correct!I must be going senile because I was convinced I was right.
    The reason Branden Albert is not an option for linemen-needy Miami Dolphins
    BY ADAM H. BEASLEY

    LINKEDIN
    AUGUST 27, 2017 01:05 PM

    UPDATED AUGUST 27, 2017 01:13 PM

    It seems like a perfect fit, right?

    Dolphins linemen are falling like leaves.

    Branden Albert is a free agent.

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    So why hasn’t there been a reunion in Miami?

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    Because Albert, the former Pro Bowl left tackle, truly is retired.

    A league source tells the Miami Herald that Albert has no desire to play anymore.

    That explains his behavior in Jacksonville, who traded for Albert in the spring, only to see him announce his retirement at the start of training camp.
    Click to expand...
    Much respect for admitting that.

    Wow I guess you don't remember much.
     
  33. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Ok, I didn't remember that. I was wrong saying you never do that.
     
  34. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    It takes away personal accountability.

    Tell someone in your workplace THAT isnt an excuse it is a reason?? And you likely will be on the way out.
     
  35. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough.
     
  36. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    I have news for ya, he wasn't going to have too many years with 18 catches over 20 yards with a 64% ratio regardless of the switch. Those are insane numbers.

    And this still is not a timing issue. Why else would they ask him to "let it rip"? They asked that because he was trying to throw passes on a line to a guy that blows by defenders and you have to lead.
     
  37. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Think about this- Wallace is taller than Stills, faster than Stills, longer arms than Stills yet we're saying Stills has a big catch radius and Wallace has a small one? That doesn't make any sense. Stills works hard on every play while Wallace does whatever he feels like doing.

    Where you say "timing based offense" or "small catch radius", I just see a guy who wasn't going to give it a bit of effort if the ball wasn't thrown perfectly. I think his stats were better in 2011 because 63.7% of the passes landed naturally in his hands, where only 53.8% made it there the next season.

    Wallace is a bum...why are you guys debating a bum? It has no reflection on Tannehill other than to say that RT didn't hit the guy perfectly in stride. That problem has been fixed by receivers who actually want to catch the ball and help their team win.
     
    Fin D likes this.
  38. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    What is your interpretation of the plays vs Carolina in the youtube video posted earlier??
     
  39. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    No it doesn't. I mean WTF?

    You, as a person, didn't set your alarm. You did that. No one else. By saying you didn't set your alarm you are saying you personally screwed up.
     
  40. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Jesus.

    Talk about extreme.

    Believe what you want, i don't care. Just stop going around and acting like you're this enlightened person whose perfectly down the middle and never causes problems and is always on the side of facts.
     

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