1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

***Official All Things Tannehill Thread***

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Fin D, Dec 28, 2017.

  1. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    Go back to that graphic I posted. It illustrates why timing based offense changes the catch rates if a WR has a small catch radius.
     
    KeyFin likes this.
  2. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

    11,375
    11,392
    113
    Sep 28, 2015
    Your defense mechanism is poor. You realized what I said makes sense so now you are struggling again?
     
  3. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

    10,488
    12,821
    113
    Nov 1, 2009
    The TD pass was slightly underthrown- that's a very good example. Wallace slows down and let's the ball come to him instead of jumping and making a two-handed grab. It worked....only because the CB didn't do his job. The same thing happened on the 2nd pass; Wallace was wide open, the ball is short and he stands flat-footed making no effort except to hold his arms out in front of him. Of course it was picked off...both passes should have been picked off since Wallace allowed them to be 50/50 balls.

    Compare that to the catch Parker had last week against the Chiefs- Parker went airborne over two defenders and made a beautiful catch. That's what Mike Wallace could be if he gave a crap. Heck, Kenny Stills isn't even in the same league as Mike Wallace....but the effort Kenny gives more than makes up for it.

    Now, some would argue that the fault there was on Tannehill- the passes certainly weren't perfect by any means. But were they catchable? I don't see how anyone can say they weren't (especially since one was caught for a TD). What that one video doesn't show though was the number of times Tannehill aired it out to hit Wallace in stride and he gave up on the play....only to jog within 3-4 yards of where the ball hits the turf. That's an effort thing- it always has been. And you simply don't need a guy on your team that acts that way with a young QB.

    I remember my favorite stat from that season was that Mike Wallace dropped more passes in the endzone than any other receiver in the league. I stick to my previous statement- the guy is a bum and he's not worth arguing over. You certainly can't evaluate a QB with him as the example unless you're talking about pinpoint accuracy to a no-effort athlete.
     
  4. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

    11,375
    11,392
    113
    Sep 28, 2015
    Free advice.

    If you enjoy arguing as much as you obviously do (proof is evident) then for the love of Jesus take some time to understand how things work in the sport.

    Until then keep fighting the good fight and thinking everyone else is crazy and you are a logical man. (Remember our accountability chat)

    I’ve tried with you, you are who you are and it is what it is.

    But out of respect for Matt who is likely about to break his computer over other things, I will go back to just laughing at your approach to message boards and in all likelihood life in general.

    Get them NYE resolutions in!

    Goodbye sir. And Godspeed
     
    shamegame13 likes this.
  5. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

    10,488
    12,821
    113
    Nov 1, 2009
    I agree with you....I was just adding that Wallace had a small catch radius by choice. I mean, when we see 5' 7" Grant high-ponting a ball you know you're getting maximum effort from a tiny radius guy. But when you see a tall, lengthy receiver standing flat footed, that's a wide radius guy wasting his potential. Wallace always was scared of being hit though.
     
    Fin D likes this.
  6. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

    11,375
    11,392
    113
    Sep 28, 2015
    Umm

    I just showed you two easy to find plays where Tannehill DIDNT throw the ball with pinpoint accuracy, yet it was Wallace’s effort that creates two big plays in one game.

    Calling Wallace “low effort” is fair sometimes, but to use that as an EXCUSE for Ryan not doing his part is strange.
     
  7. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

    10,488
    12,821
    113
    Nov 1, 2009
    Did he catch that 2nd pass? I couldn't tell by the clip and I don't remember that game's fine details. It looked like it was intercepted.

    It really doesn't matter either way though- Stills, Parker, Landry or even Grant would have elevated on both those passes and ensured that they were completions. Wallace just stood there and hoped the passes fell into his hands. Just because it's a catch doesn't mean it wasn't low effort though.
     
  8. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

    11,375
    11,392
    113
    Sep 28, 2015
    He did catch it, they reviewed it and it stood.

    You are right about one thing however, it really is pointless to argue, it is just a good example of the same group of people pretending Ryan has been a victim his whole life uses to help support that claim.

    He struggled with it, he changed his mechanics and got better, kind of end of story really.
     
    KeyFin likes this.
  9. smahtaz

    smahtaz Pimpin Ain't Easy

    I thought RT was playing some pretty good ball when he went down. I expect he'll be back and do well.
     
    miami365, KeyFin and Fin-O like this.
  10. shamegame13

    shamegame13 Madison & Surtain

    3,451
    903
    113
    Dec 15, 2014
    I expect a surgically repaired knee to line up under center and who knows from there. Hopefully he lights it up, but hopefully we have a replacement ready to go/future franchise QB if he gets injured again but even moreso, for when the mediocrity continues.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2017
  11. shamegame13

    shamegame13 Madison & Surtain

    3,451
    903
    113
    Dec 15, 2014
    Well played.
     
  12. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    Once again you've been given evidence showing you how wrong you are and you still close your eyes cover your ears and scream lalalala I can't hear you.

    I mean you've been given tape, stats, diagrams, detailed explanations by people who have forgotten more football then we'll ever know....and still you act like you know more than all of them and provide precisely nothing in your favor.

    Except insults.

    Extreme.
     
  13. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    111,652
    67,546
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    I understand there is a amount of improvement that is relative to surrounding variables..I get how to evaluate personnel while putting that into context..I don’t evaluate players based on surrounding variables, I isolate them in a box, figure out how good they are at their individual responsibilities, draw that line as their ceiling then project their game with good surrounding variables..

    Ryan has not approached top 10 qb status imo.... yet
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2017
  14. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    111,652
    67,546
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    True, which is the hope here..
     
  15. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    111,652
    67,546
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    I was a huge Theilen fan and projected him to be the next Jordy Nelson..he didn’t disappoint..not sure why the kid got roasted..
     
  16. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    111,652
    67,546
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    How do you read the quote above yours and continue this...
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2017
    Fin-O and shamegame13 like this.
  17. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    111,652
    67,546
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    Rothlesberger didn’t have a problem

    Can you explain the stark discrepancy in production?
     
    Dolphin North and shamegame13 like this.
  18. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

    37,392
    14,745
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    new york ciity
    Wallace sucked here. My biggest gripe with him is how he hugged the sideline on his flies. A receiver should be two or three feet inside the sideline to give the QB both sides to throw too. Hitting the outside shoulder is a throw that can't be intercepted. But Wallace would hug the sideline basically taking away the outside shoulder throw and helping the cornerback
     
    resnor likes this.
  19. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    111,652
    67,546
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    Qb needs to adapt
     
    shamegame13 likes this.
  20. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    111,652
    67,546
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    Rothlesberger to Wallace success was not based on scramble plays
     
    shamegame13 likes this.
  21. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

    37,392
    14,745
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    new york ciity
    He didn' change his mechanics. He changed reveivers. Stills is much better than Wallace. Wallace was the problem not tannehill
     
  22. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    111,652
    67,546
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    I’ve never tweeted or followed a tweeter:)
     
  23. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    For the millionth time, Big Rape had the EXACT same production with Wallace the year before. The difference? That was the year they switched to a timing based offense.
     
    DHitchens and resnor like this.
  24. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,329
    9,874
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    He did when they switched to a timing based offense. Wallace's numbers fell off the season before coming to Miami. We discussed this ad nauseum years ago.
     
  25. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,329
    9,874
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    Yeah, how dare I point out that Wallace sucked at making adjustments during his route, requiring instead for him to find the ball at the end of the route, and then stop? He should have found the ball far earlier, slowed up, and then did up at the end to get away from the defender and make the catch.
     
  26. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,329
    9,874
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    Sidenote, this thread is exactly why the Tannehill debates have continued for years. The same arguments that have been debunked continue to be used, despite the information being presented that refutes the position. Such as, Big Ben not having this problem with Wallace. That is false, and was disproved years ago, but it gets pulled out in this thread.
     
    miami365 and Fin D like this.
  27. RGF

    RGF THE FINSTER Club Member

    6,066
    3,436
    113
    Nov 24, 2007
    NY
    Dont know if this was mentioned at all but I was under the assumption RT's ACL injury during pre-season was the result of the original injury not healing properly. I never knew the team reported the injury was NOT the same ACL problem but an entirely different situation that required surgery.
     
    KeyFin likes this.
  28. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

    10,488
    12,821
    113
    Nov 1, 2009
    I didn't know that either. How did we not know that?
     
  29. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

    19,127
    11,058
    113
    Apr 22, 2014
    RGF likes this.
  30. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

    19,127
    11,058
    113
    Apr 22, 2014
    See my post above for what info was around.

    With regards the original ACL tear - those don't heal, ever. The idea was that even with the partial tear as it was Tannehill's knee would be stable and usable.

    The second injury wasn't, apparently a further tear of the ACL or anything else. It was a demonstration that his knee, as it was, wasn't stable. Surgery was therefore needed to reinforce his knee since the original structure wasn't going to get the job done.

    That's my understanding.

    As such it wasn't a reinjury, per se. It was a consequential injury resulting from an unstable knee. Reports were the second injury created no further structural damage. The surgery was an effort to avoid any further issues in the future like the one that happened in preseason.
     
    RGF likes this.
  31. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

    10,488
    12,821
    113
    Nov 1, 2009
    Aren't all QB's the victim of the offense around them? Name one team that has 10 perfect players on the field surrounding the QB; I don't think you have that even in an All-Star game. I agree with Fin D...the line, the receivers and the offensive scheme played heavily in Tannehill's early struggles. I also agree with you...none of that is really a valid excuse. But if Fin D is right, Tannehill should be sensational in 2018 since all those excuses are gone. Why on Earth would we not want him to be right about that?

    My personal point in all of this is that it doesn't matter though- whether RT was great or horrible in 2012, 2013, 2014, etc, he's our starting QB for 2018. I thought he looked great in 2016 and I thought he looked even better this year in training camp, so I've seen all I really need to see for now.

    I'm also willing to bet that this 16 months on the bench for Tannehill has been a great learning experience in itself. Cutler's a bum, sure, but he's great at sliding away from pressure and RT has spent a year in the locker room learning a completely different style. You can see him on the sidelines talking to Moore, Gase and Cutler after virtually every play, and that's something he's never been able to do in the NFL before. If anything, it should make him even more in tune with Gase and the offense and that's a very, very good thing.
     
    DHitchens likes this.
  32. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

    11,375
    11,392
    113
    Sep 28, 2015
    Or a crappy one.

    It's a reminder of how many idiots there are in the world.

    However you can find some solid football content in there at times.
     
  33. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

    11,375
    11,392
    113
    Sep 28, 2015
    Nobody is discounting he had unideal conditions early in his career, nobody wants to see Ryan fail. In those years, Ryan was nor great nor horrible.

    The being on the sidelines would be huge plus for him, I agree.

    Im not arguing against any if this.
     
    KeyFin likes this.
  34. DHitchens

    DHitchens Active Member

    193
    123
    43
    Aug 12, 2017
    I don't disagree with any of the above (some of it I don't know enough about to agree or disagree), but what if it were the case that under the conditions you mentioned (the boldfaced part), the top QBs in the league would've also played slightly more poorly than their customary level, but also significantly higher than the level at which Tannehill played?

    For example, what if under ideal conditions Aaron Rodgers's passer rating is (theoretically) 120, and under the conditions Tannehill experienced early in his career, Rodgers's passer rating drops to 100. Tannehill on the other hand (theoretically) has a passer rating of 85 under those poor conditions, while his passer rating elevates to 105 under ideal conditions.

    Can you see what I'm getting at here? If all that's true, then Tannehill's ceiling is 105, and his floor is 85, while Rodgers's ceiling is 120, and his floor is 100.

    This matters because there isn't a significant difference in terms of helping a team win until you get into that upper echelon of QBs, the top six or seven in the league. From there on down everyone is average, until about QB number 22 or so in the league.

    If Tannehill plays at the average level under all but the most ideal conditions, then it becomes exceedingly difficult to surround him with those conditions and maintain them. And that's to say nothing about pass defense, which has a very small correlation with pass offense, and which becomes of paramount importance when working with an average-level QB. The probability of amassing that kind of talent on both sides of the ball has to be very low.

    So, unless people believe there is some way Tannehill can vault into that upper echelon of QBs, the point about where he's functioning is really moot. Almost all who agree he isn't functioning in the upper echelon would also agree that he's functioning at the average level (which is the next lowest level).

    If almost everyone would agree that he's functioning at the average level, the point-counterpoint is now over, and the matter now becomes how likely it is that he can be surrounded with the talent necessary to get an average-level QB to win a Super Bowl.
     
  35. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

    10,488
    12,821
    113
    Nov 1, 2009
    It feels like you're overthinking this...let's talk actual on-field things that make up a QBR. Total yards, TD passes, picks, completion percentage. But how do you get that stuff? Receivers gaining yards after the catch, great blocking, a complimentary run game, etc. Because we had a weak line and no run game, teams just stacked 8 in the box and sent them all day long- sort of how we just dominated New England. Brady had a 50's QBR that day, so it's not as simple as add 20 QBR points on a good day vs a bad day and you get a fair average.

    But when you can run the ball effectively, defenses can't double-stack gaps on blitzes and crash the ends like we saw earlier in RT's career. Just that one simple change could give a QB an extra second to throw the ball...which is the only way you can complete longer passes if you're sitting in the pocket (remember, Philbin told him to NEVER leave the pocket). The same is true for Landry breaking tackles...stats don't care where a receiver catches the ball, it only cares about where the play ends. So supporting cast certainly plays a big factor on any team.

    I don't 100% agree with Fin D here...I'm just playing devil's advocate and arguing both sides at once. The conclusion is the same either way though- we now have an excellent supporting cast. Tannehill's QBR for 2018 should be an accurate reflection of what we'll see the rest of his career.
     
  36. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    The thing I'd argue is that you're making an assumption that the amount these QB rating drop or rise based on circumstances beyond the QB's control is a constant among all QBs. There's no reason to believe that X conditions affects both QB Jones & QB Doe 20 rating points. Jones could be a better QB but struggle with X worse than QB Doe does.
     
    Sceeto likes this.
  37. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

    15,361
    20,989
    113
    Sep 4, 2014
    Arizona Cardinals quarterback Drew Stanton reportedly played the 2017 season with a torn ACL in his knee.

    Per NFL Network's Ian Rapoport, Stanton had been playing with "a thread" of an ACL before it finally gave out.

    Rapoport added Stanton is not planning to have surgery because he's learned how to manage the situation.

    Cardinals wide receiver Larry Fitzgerald said after the team's Week 17 win over the Seattle Seahawks that Stanton played the final two weeks of the season with a torn ACL:

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...om&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=editorial
     
    resnor likes this.
  38. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

    19,127
    11,058
    113
    Apr 22, 2014
    Pardon me while I dump a few updates...hope no one minds.




     
    The Finest and danmarino like this.
  39. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

    19,127
    11,058
    113
    Apr 22, 2014


     
    Fin D likes this.
  40. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,329
    9,874
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    I hate when people say that Tannehill needs "ideal circumstances," or some similar statement, as if saying he can't have zero run game, maybe the worst oline in football, and bad coaches means he needs a pristine environment. Maybe we could see how he looks with average players around him before we say he needs superstars everywhere.
     
    miami365, The Finest, Fin D and 2 others like this.

Share This Page