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***Official All Things Tannehill Thread***

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Fin D, Dec 28, 2017.

  1. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    I’m actually very capable.

    Anytime you want to put up some $$ just get ahold of me.
     
  2. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    My statement had zero to do with pre snap reads.

    He is taking to different levels to try and sound like the smartest guy in the room.

    Just pretend he is coming at someone with his dumb **** on a play that was promoting Tannehill.

    I he wants to disagree that’s fine.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 7, 2018
  3. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

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    It was just a way to get you to answer multiple questions. First was, what are the read progressions vs the coverages given in the scenarios regardless of pre or post snap phases. Second was, how the hell can you determine if an NFL QB struggles within his read progressions if you don't understand the schemes and concepts he's operating under.
     
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  4. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Actually, if someone with more knowledge told me, with actual film breakdown, that Tannehill could not read a defense, I, personally, wouldn't argue with them, as I have no experience watching and breaking down film.

    This is actually interesting to me, because all too often on here, people make critical statements about Tannehill, with nothing substantive to back them up. For instance, guys like Travis, or Raphael, or other guys in the world who do film study, almost universally have a way higher opinion of Tannehill. That tells me that average watcher of football doesn't know what to look for.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2018
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  5. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

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    I am not.the biggest Tannehill fan but I am watching.this jags bills game and was thinking if.the jags had Tannehill they would be legit superbowl contenders.Bortles is terrible.The jags have way more.talent than the bills but Taylor is the better Qb.
     
  6. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    One other thing...if a poster is criticizing Tannehill for say, the pick six in the Browns game, then you better be sure you understand scheme and route concepts. Otherwise, you could be blaming the QB for what is really a receiver mistake. Which was why I mentioned it could have been a wrong route. Now, I don't understand those things, so I wouldn't (and didn't) make a dogmatic statement that it was the receivers fault, but it's worth looking at to see.
     
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  7. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    You don't have to google these things to realize when a QB is forced to goto his second read.

    They normally have about 3 seconds post snap.

    You also do not need to know the assignments of each WR to realize who was his first read or not. It isn't hard to do.

    In the future if you want to disagree with someone, maybe try to find a better way of going about it then highlighting a post and saying "It's obvious you don't know what you are talking about" or some jackass comment like "You couldn't breakdown film if I paid you". Those are ******* comments, and you don't know me from Adam to make any claims like that.
     
  8. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    The scheme is common knowledge.

    If you are buying that this guy can tell you the Dolphin's offensive philosophy by watching a few play's then I don't know what to tell you.

    If it were that easy to recognize an offenses intentions on every play then it would be easy to defend.

    All teams have route concepts, but they are certainly not ALL the same based on a given look.
     
  9. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I'm not buying anything. However, I will say this...the guy who's giving information is usually more believable than the guy making fun of the information but giving none in return.

    Also, the defense doesn't know which play the offense is running, so that part of your argument is meaningless. The concepts do run the same team to team, although terminology might change. So, yes, defenders certainly understand leverages, route trees, etc, but knowing that doesn't help defend as much as understanding defense scheme helps the offense.
     
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  10. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    Precisely.

    Now what information did he give relative to my comments?

    And if you are a defender and it is some universal knowledge that when you shift into X defense that the AUTOMATIC concept becomes Y, then yes, you become very easy to defend. But that's not the case, so it is a moot point.
     
  11. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

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    You do need an understanding of at least basic X&O's.

    Although this is an odd statement, it was never a claim. It's odd b/c it goes philosophy>scheme>concepts>playdesign. So a team's philosophic intentions are rather evident. These aren't secrets. It's in their personnel groupings, game planning, and situational playcalling. A lot of the time, coaches will flat out talk about their football philosophies and how they approach the game.

    This doesn't make any sense. In fact it's a stupid statement. Breaking down film is 20/20 hindsight work. It has nothing to do with how the players react to the moment/play and how the play unfolds in those few seconds.

    Yes, there might be slight nuances depending on the coach, but they are relatively the same. Even the newer triangle reads are decades old.

    So what are looking for?

    Why is this relevent?

    Yes, you do. You absolutely need to know the concept or purpose behind the play design.

    OK then, pick a damn play or two. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201311240mia.htm#all_pbp
     
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  12. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Again, the defense doesn't know if receiver X is running a hook, receiver Y running a post, and receiver Z running a slant. The read order may change for the offense, when they see what the defense is in, but the defense doesn't know what the offense is running.

    Fin, you've given no evidence that Tannehill struggles if his first read isn't there, but you claimed that as fact.
     
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  13. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    Answers above...


    You pick the play? You took the trouble to copy paste that and yet are refusing to just go ahead and make the attempt to prove how smart you are??

    You came at me with accusations, back them up or GTFO.

     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2018
  14. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

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    Honestly, I wanted you to pick it and attempt to explain it, so I could get a good laugh. I'll get to a few in a few.
     
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  15. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    I didn't claim anything as a fact. i told you knuckleheads like 5x I was giving you my opinion.

    And i think you are misunderstanding something because the first part of your paragraph is obvious and that is not what I'm saying. What HE is saying is HE can look at a play and tell you what the QB/WR were "supposed to do". And he can't w/o knowing the playbook beyond just "oh he ran a hook".

    Furthermore, it also has ZERO to do with being able to tell if a QB is on his first read or not, which is the entire basis of his claims.
     
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  16. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    Be sure and take your plates upstairs so momma don't have to come all the way downstairs and get them for you. :chuckle:
     
  17. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Who's @fino? I'm just curious who you think it is.

    As far to the pre-snap having nothing to do with it, it often determines the first read all all levels of football. For instance, when Parker splits out wide and there's no safety over the top, the route changes by design and the ball SHOULD go to Parker deep 100% of the time. That's why on 4-5 plays this season, you see Parker waving his arms pre-snap...he's signaling the route change and the opportunity in case Cutler missed it. And a few times, Cutler did miss it...he never even glanced Parker's way as the dude sprinted along the sidelines wide open. That's usually on the QB making the wrong pre-snap read.

    We do run some plays where, by design, we throw a short pass to Landry and everyone else is a blocker/decoy. Or maybe we take an intermediate stab at the TE on 3rd and 9...it was the specified throw/route the entire time. But more often than not, the QB's progression is based on what he sees pre-snap and what the defense is showing.
     
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  18. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    You are correct. How is it coming off that I'm disputing that?

    My OPINION (for the goofs who need to hear that again) is that when that 1st read is not there it interrupts his rhythm which in turn becomes a challenge for him.

    This guy is telling me I do not know if he is throwing to his first read or not based on route concepts, I still haven't been able to make sense of why, but he's the expert.
     
  19. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I might have quoted the wrong post, but you said earlier that the pre-snap read has nothing to do with a QB's post-snap progression. I was just illustrating that sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't.

    This isn't my argument though- just adding my 2 cents.
     
  20. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    That isn't what I said, because that is false.

    The pre snap read has nothing to do with recognizing IF he was on read#1 or read#2....
     
  21. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    What are you basing your opinion off? I think that's what's being asked of you. Provide actual plays that demonstrate this.
     
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  22. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    LOL, Im basing it off what I saw!

    Funny I'm not being trolled to "show proof" of a good play I said he made.

    Wonder why?
     
  23. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Who's trolling? I'm not trolling. How come it's such a big deal to post a couple plays to show where you drew this conclusion? This is exactly, though, why your ability to breakdown film was questioned, because you're claiming to see this...but are unwilling to post actual plays.
     
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  24. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    For one, I have no clue how to do that, for 2 I don't remember which play's in 6 games. for 3, I don't need the approval nor do I need to prove to a bunch of trolling extremists what in my opinion I saw.

    You guy's have shown ZERO ability to accept ANY critiques of RT.

    The fact nobody is questioning anything positive is proof enough to back this claim up. And now Ive wasted hours of my Sunday, dealing with extremists who talk about the poster and not the topic.

    Cya.
     
  25. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    That's rich.

    More insults. I will accept any HONEST critiques of Tannehill. I will not accept made up critiques with no substance.
     
  26. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

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    '13 Miami vs Carolina. 1st qtr, 3:14, 3&4. (I'll categorize different answers in spoiler tags)



    Offensive formation:
    11 personnel, 1x3, Trips, TE split, HB strong.

    Defensive Formation:
    4-2-5

    I. Presnap:
    Cover 2 man

    II. Postnsap:
    Man Free nickel blitz, FS replace, SS roll

    Play:
    The fielidside Trips is a wrinkle in one of Patrino's passing concepts. It's the backside of a shallow cross concept with some additional options. Typically it's a Post/Wheel/Dig route package with the primary target actually being a shallow crosser cutting back across underneath after they clear out space.

    #1 runs the Post, but he see's the FS rock underneath and takes the vertical option after an inside move to fake the Post b/c now he knows no one is over top.

    #2 runs the Wheel, but this being Hartline - veteran smarts - he recognizes the blitz, knows he's is not the Hot, pivots underneath instead of completing the Wheel (which would draw the DB further upfield).

    #3 is where the other mistake happens, and it's a young Rishard Matthews. #3 is the Hot (tags himself w/ arm motion after IDing his DB is blitzing). Presnap - He is originally supposed to run the Dig within the concept. M2M coverage the DB algns with inside leverage to avoid giving up the MOF and beyond. So upon his release, #3 will give an inside jab step as if he is going challenge that leverage, but will run his stem to the outside and then break back inside for the Dig.

    Well that's presnap thought process, now onto after it's snapped.



    Postsnap, there's now a blitz coming, and it's coming unblocked off the edge. The reason it's coming unblocked is that the Center missed to ID the blitz, and call a protection slide. A QB will ID the Mike for the Center, so he can make the protection call to the lineman. But, the Center is also responsible for the 5 most dangerous men to be blocked should there be a blitz. There should have been a slide called to the left so the 5 lineman can block the 5 most dangerous men, or the 5 defenders with the quickest path to the QB. This is the four DL (note the "Larry" call which is a line stunt left which draws the o-lineman away from the blitz) and the Nickel DB off the edge here. Although the Mike does reduce his alignment for a semi-bluff, he's the responsibility (if he would have blitzed) of the RB because he would be the least dangerous man. RB's, b/c they are typically the least skilled pass blocker, so most often designated as so.

    Back to the passing play. #3 is the Hot and the sight adjustment is a slant or an immediate crosser that provides the QB with a quick, short pass; especially in this particular when facing edge pressure and the MOF is open w/ the blitzers man replacement coming from 13 yards downfield. Matthews ran the wrong hot vs the coverage. Matthews' error comes into play when he reaches his stem, reads the inside leverage of the FS coming down, and cuts out. This is a receiver error for two reasons. One, there is no reason in that situation to elongate the pass by cutting outside to the sideline when the MOF is wide open underneath with pressure coming off the edge and the replacement coming from the 3rd level. Two, IF you're going to make that mistake, at least pivot towards the QB, and not turn your back to him as the Hot read when he has an unblocked blitzer in his face.

    Tannehill simply does his best attempt to get rid of it and throws an unsuspected pass in Matthew's direction to avoid the sack.

    Feel free for comments, and questions. I'll answer what I can based on that play.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2018
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  27. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    It wasn't made up.

    It's MY OPINION, that you didn't want to hear. That's why you are crying and embracing a dude who is trying to make a point that does not exist.
     
  28. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Stop being dramatic and throwing insults around. It's an opinion, which you're being asked to back up with fact. Opinions can be, and often are, wrong. It's actually pretty silly that we're even having this discussion. It's clear you're not interested in giving any proof of your opinion, so I'll just consider it wrong at this point.
     
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  29. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    It's great that you took time to do this (8 hours and lots of googling later)

    However, again.

    This has ZERO to do with any of my comments. ZERO.

    I don't know why I have to keep repeating myself.


    But where you win is having the backing of some pretty bad posters who are blindly following you because it hurts there feelings if RT has an ounce of criticism. Congrats, "ELITE" cult you are now the leader of.

    If you or anyone thinks that any of us here who watch games and give RT raving reviews is taking the time to break down every play they see like you just did?? You are high on drugs. But yet, if someone blows sunshine up his ***, nobody cares if their is "substance" and only care if it brightens their mentally weak minds.

    And THAT is the difference around here. And THAT is why a certain group has dragged this non paid forum into a circling drain.

    We had a poster repeat the words of another poster that say's "All this 2017 team needed was RT and nothing else" he was chastised for "proof" even by well respected mod's. And as I expected?? They have not been consistent with setting that precedent. And now we have 3 pages of whack *** arguments all based around........some dude trying to insult me personally then debunk a comment I made by using facts that do not even pertain to what I actually said!? And the other guy's simply do not have the aptitude to see that, they are just tools who see Random Guy vs FinO.

    It is unfortunate the way things have become around here, it went from myself answering a question from Cbrad, to this crap.
     
  30. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Step 1: Deny claims previously made.
    Step 2: Insult.
    Step 3: Deny rebuttal has anything to do with claims that were denied in step 1.
    Step 4: Insult.
    Step 5: Complain about posters who liked rebuttal.
    Step 6: Insult.
    Step 7: Claim to be a truth teller/neutral.
    Step 8: Insult.
    Step 9: Repeat any or all steps.
     
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  31. richard mcintyre

    richard mcintyre New Member

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  32. richard mcintyre

    richard mcintyre New Member

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    Not a new member .Just about totally computer eliterate.Great read!Looks like the qbs fault not very accurate throw.Is this a coaching problem?Do you have more recent exaples of bad receiver run routes?Is our qbs. problem not getting this ironed out in practice like a "manning,brees,brady" would?Or is this a coaching problem or both?really slow at typing sorry!! Really great read .Hope all you guys keep posting your opinions its just a message board.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     
  33. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Which throw are you talking about?
     
  34. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

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    Post #277 is also an example where statistical analysis fall on it's face. There were two major mistakes that caused the play to fail, and neither happened to be the fault of the QB. Ironically, it gets logged in statistically as simply an errant throw and an incompletion on 3rd down.
     
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  35. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    This is a public health announcement.

    Prolonged exposure to Ryan Tannehill debates can be hazardous to your health.
    Problems suffered may include irritability, high blood pressure, and murderous intent.

    You may be suffering from 'Ryanitis' If you show any signs of the following:

    Sore throat.*
    Red swelling on your forehead.**
    Lack of sleep.***
    Repeating the same things over and over.****


    Caused by:
    *Screaming at your computer.
    **Banging your head against a wall (or your computer).
    ***Staying up way too late discussing Tannehill.
    ****All of the above.

    If you may be suffering from Ryanitis, or think you may be susceptible to do so, we recommend you read and remember the following:
    [​IMG]

    Life if bigger and more important. :)

    Take a walk.
    Take up an instrument.
    Play with the kids.
    Buy a pet.
    Take up a hobby.
    Learn a language.
    Learn to dance.
    Watch paint dry.
    Whatever it takes... :)
     
  36. richard mcintyre

    richard mcintyre New Member

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    Sorry site not posting replys .Is this qb fault for not getting this down in practice or coaching?
     
  37. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    There's no a priori assumption that passer rating (for example) is a QB-only stat, so all you're pointing out here is that there's some unknown distribution of credit/blame that should go towards all possible factors that influence such team stats. And despite what you claimed in the other thread, there is NO known method (including film study) that can determine what percentage of the blame should be on every possible factor that could influence the outcome.

    For example, in the play you chose, how do you observe what percentage of the blame is on the coach? It's impossible.


    Also, some things you should know:

    1) It's impossible to do statistical analysis on a single data point because a single data point has no defined variance. That's why you'll never see me use statistics from a single play to make a point. So you're arguing against a strawman here.

    2) The real question isn't whether there are cases where the QB is being blamed for something a receiver did. The real question is whether erroneously assigned blame "balances out" as sample size increases. That is, are there similar number of cases where the QB got bailed out by the WR? If so, then there's no systematic bias here.

    Point is.. you can't attack statistical analysis by looking at a single data point. You have to show that assumptions made in statistics over large sample sizes (i.e. assumptions about the distribution of "random variation") are inaccurate.
     
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  38. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I was just waiting to get to the solution part-

    TREATMENT- Two dollar hooker of the crack-whore variety. Teeth optional.

    1) Find said crack-whore and have meaningless relations.
    2) Pay $2. Tip optional. Do not shake hands afterwards.
    3) Remove condom. Wait...oops. Proceed to shower immediately.
    4) Drive home, sleep until 6:30 AM, proceed directly to health clinic.
    5) Get worst "BJ" of your life from nurse with big needle. Crying optional.
    6) Try posting on forum about Ryan Tannehill. If anger ensues, repeat steps 1-5.
     
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  39. The Goat

    The Goat Junior Member

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    Wow. And I thought the Tannehill threads on the OTHER forum went off the rails.
     
  40. shamegame13

    shamegame13 Madison & Surtain

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    Question:

    When Tannehill isn’t the QB beyond 2018, do the Tannehill threads end? Or... we can do Tannehill Top 10 threads in Other NFL I suppose...
     

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