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Finding our next 'genius'

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by tirty8, Oct 27, 2017.

  1. Rock Sexton

    Rock Sexton Anti-Homer

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    Gettin' waaaaay too metaphysical on me.
     
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  2. Walter

    Walter Well-Known Member

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    Harbaugh --- Gase hmmmm love to have that decision

    Saw what happened with Andy Reid and see that this kind of stuff happens. I know odds against it, but just saying we should make an effort to upgrade with someone with proven quality experience and not people who never were there (and its another crap shot)....

    I want to see basic levels of quality and real football not this one step forward and 3 steps back high schoolish football, that Gases is putting out there. Win or lose... We haven't won much without the opposition handing it over going back to last year....

    I'll never see again what I've been used to with those 17 years of watching Marino... never even be close to... and I am thankful to have had that experience. Now just consistent mediocrity without all the side shows would be an improvement. This friggin team isn't that exciting and is hard to watch even when they win (never seen anything like it)...... combined 2 1/2 minutes of being in the lead for the last several games. But yes we came away with the Win, which in our case is more a problems making people believe that they are something they are not....
     
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  3. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    I definitely need to see how the season plays out. Certain things Gase does I have confidence in, more than say a Sparano or a Cameron. I really do feel that Gase has the intelligence quotient to be a top end HC. I never felt that way with ... really anyone. There really are only 2 dudes that would give me pause - Harbaugh and Payton.

    Everyone else either has 0 chance of being canned, or I don't have any confidence in.

    Just look at the Raiders. The "proven" DelRio had a great year. This year? He's back down to earth. The reality is that NO coach save maybe BB is without serious flaws. Even Andy Reid, your poster boy ... well known for bad management in tough, close, high pressure games. He will win you games in the regular season and get you in, but has yet to go all the way. This year will be interesting.

    As far as Harbs and Payton, you have question burnout at this point if they are dropped, and question how fortuitous they were with chance that may or may never happen again.

    It's easy to wish for upgrades, but reality shows that even with proven guys, or can't miss guys (Saban syndrome) you can still fall on your face. I'd hate to see Gase go elsewhere and succeed while we dig up some retread and take another step back.
     
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  4. Dolphin North

    Dolphin North Well-Known Member

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    A friend told me a couple of years ago when we let Bowles walk that we had our chance. I believed him then and I believe him now. That team is playing hard for him and doing the best anyone can expect with what they have.
    He said the same thing about Dan Campbell although to a lesser extent. He said he will resurface one day as a very good coach if someone gives him a shot. The problem goes to the top. They simply cannot see worthy candidates even when they have them in the building already and that is far more troubling than whether or not Gase turns out to be the guy we can roll with for a decade.
     
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  5. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    Bowles was almost fired after last season. I was a fan of his and wanted him hired, but let's be honest, the dude has not lit the world on fire.

    As for Dan Campbell ... well I'll believe that when it happens.
     
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  6. Dolphin North

    Dolphin North Well-Known Member

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    How was he almost fired? How did that go down? I know they only won 5 last year but I also know they are not loaded with talent and started out with an incident that caused them to lose their starting QB. Now they have recovered from that and are playing good ball. I do not follow the Jets, but year 3 means they have now had time to turn over the roster and get his imprint on the team. I have watched 2 of their games this season plus a good portion of another and I think they look like they lack talent in many areas but play hard and look well coached.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2017
  7. dirtylandry

    dirtylandry Well-Known Member

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    if it hasn't been said, Gase needs to give up play calling duties
     
  8. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

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    This post has aged well....
     
  9. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    This post is still a good reply.
     
  10. Fame

    Fame Well-Known Member

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    Never has there been a post so undeserving of a bump.
     
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  11. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

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    What coach has a .609 winning percentage?Gase has .500.10-6,6-10.
     
  12. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    At the time the post was written, Gase did.
     
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  13. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    The post you're responding to was last year.
     
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  14. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

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    Got ya.
     
  15. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

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    I say give him 1 more year playoffs or bust.Hopefully he can learn from his mistakes.
     
  16. Vertical Limit

    Vertical Limit Senior Member

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    Philbin was a terrible choice from the getgo after being rejected by our other bad candidate Jeff Fisher. Philbin never called any plays for green bay, and hes OC again in green bay which means mccarthy is going to call plays again.
     
  17. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    someone must've been utterly bored...and overly impressed with himself.
     
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  18. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

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    Aint gonna lie, my post was supahawt fire.
     
  19. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    I think your initial post was way premature.

    Much like your "bump".

    I do agree, however, that it should be set on fire.
     
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  20. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    You mean when are we going to find our next unproven coordinator with no HC experience. Probably in another two seasons when gase proves his ineptness beyond a shadow of a doubt.

    Don't know how anybody can have faith in this guy anymre when his one specialty of being an offensive "genius" resulted in one of the worst offenses in the league last year.
     
  21. The Finest

    The Finest Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    guess nobody saw him outcoach belicheck this year
     
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  22. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Is that native American for "hot take"?
     
  23. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I guess the fact that we played Jay Cutler at QB, because our starter went down with an injury, and we didn't have another competent player at the QB position on the roster has nothing to do with it, right? Lets not forget here that part of what's plagued this team the last few years is a poorly built and stocked roster.
     
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  24. mooseguts

    mooseguts Well-Known Member

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    Isn't Cutler 100% on Gase? Isn't Gase the one who reached out to Cutler and convinced him unretire because he believed in him? He picked the wrong QB thats how coaches get fired it happens.
     
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  25. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    No coach is infallible. Yes, he was wrong about Cutler, the reasoning for going after Cutler made sense, given that he knew the system. Even though I myself believe Colin Kaepernick would've been a better option, I say that through the lens of hindsight.
     
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  26. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    Also, let me add one more thing to this discussion.

    Gase has only coached the Dolphins for two years. Don't get me wrong - this past season was a crap show, but if we're going to judge Gase this past season, then we should judge Gase for the year before. And as it stands, Gase deserves one more year before being discarded.
     
  27. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Uh... who else did you want him to pick at that point in time? Please don't say Kaepernick either, theres pretty glaring reasons why he wasn't the choice, and I'm sure you know exactly what they are, and I'm not even talking about the off field stuff.

    Fact of the matter is, our backup QB situation stinks. Starter goes down. You dont trust the backup, when you turn to the scrap heap, it's a scrap heap for a reason. We aren't in the luxury position of trading for one from somewhere, the roster needs all the draft picks we can get/keep. So, throw out that idea too while we're at it. The roster is bare behind Tannehill. It's that simple. Did he pick Cutler? Sure, yeah. I suppose he did, but what other choice was there if you don't think your backup is capable, when you're trying to maintain playoff momentum from the year before. It's a roster management problem, and it's been here long before Adam Gase. I'm not trying to absolve Gase for anything, he made alot of mistakes himself this year, but Cutler was likely the lesser of all evils, especially considering there really wasn't a choice.
     
  28. mooseguts

    mooseguts Well-Known Member

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    Fortunately for me it's not my job to figure out who should be the starter for the Dolphins when Tannehill goes down. That's Gases's job and he chose wrong. Thats the nature of the beast, you make decisions that can cost you your job as a coach. Right or wrong a lot of coaches have been fired for rolling the dice on the wrong QB/player. A lot of coaches have also remained a coach because of who their QB is (Mike Tomlin, Mike McCarthy).

    I dont know who would have been better but I know we don't need hindsight to figure out that Cutler was a bad choice you just need good old fashion eye sight. 11 years worth of crap play and inconsistent play should have been enough for an NFL coach to see what millions of fans already knew. You can't depend on Jay Cutler.

    Maybe you role with Matt Moore and let the chips fall where they may, at least out draft slot would have been better.
     
  29. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Well that's a convenient cop out; it's not your job. So, you're content to complain about it, but not offer a solution? Ok.

    It's not Gase's job actually. He's the head coach. Sure. I'm pretty sure he doesn't have final say though. So, it's on Greir and Tannenbaum too. It's on all of them. However, if you think about this logically, they were a team, coming off heightened expectations of a solid playoff year, they were all in on the season with Tannehill because of his upward trajectory prior to his first knee injury. Then... down he goes again. So, with those lofty expectations you lost your QB, you don't have the luxury to have another solid option on the roster because of the holes we've had to fill on that roster, so you pick the next best guy leftover on the scrap pile in Cutler. A guy he had success with before. It's a viable option at the time, given the circumstances because there was no other real option. It's obvious Matt Moore wasn't that option. There really wasn't a choice. So, it's pretty hard to pin this decision on the coach here. He's not the GM. He likely provided his input as youd expect, and he suggested Jay, because of prior work and success. It's not a bad plan in theory. It just didn't execute well. Sure, we could have seen that coming, but again... What was the alternative? Going 6-10 or worse with Moore? Rolling the dice on Kap and being a circus with an equally bad QB? Doughty? A different free agent? I know, it's not your job, but if we're going to talk about it, and criticize it, you should have a plan.

    Matt Moore clearly wasn't that plan. Let the chips fall where they may? Ok, as a coach, good luck walking into that locker room and saying.. hey guys... Ryans out. We're ****ed. Matt's up. There's someone who could be better, but yeah, we're gonna roll with Matt, even though we don't really think he's a good option, but that's ok.... we'll get a better draft pick next year so we can find some one in round one early to replace someone in this room. How does that sound boys! Lets go get em!

    I mean... come on. The name of the game here is winning. They collectively, not just Gase, all of them made a decision that what they had, wasn't good enough to try and get them where they wanted to go. Had the injury happened earlier than it did, had we had more draft picks and resources to potentially try and trade for one, I'm sure we'd have gone that way. It was terrible timing, and all we could do is roll with what we had, or look to someone they had experience with. That's what they did. You can hardly fault them for that, it was the best decision at the time, that kept their plans in mind which was returning to the playoffs. If you, as a fan, seriously think these guys would ever sit around the table at team offices and go... "well... Damn... Ryan's gone. We dont believe in Matt. We're just going to pack it in for the year before it's even started, and maybe we'll get a better pick." I've got news for you, that's not reality. Reality is they made a move, likely the best move at the time that would give them the best chance to win, and try and carry that momentum they gained the previous year.

    It's easy to sit back now and say it sucked. Sure, it did. Sure we could have expected that given Jay's career. But, their job is to win games. Not to... let the chips fall where they may and maybe get a better draft pick. I mean... come on..
     
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  30. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

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    Colin Kaepernick. And the fans could either enjoy competent QB play and the wins, or go pout in a corner. CK was the best choice at the point in time rather than trying to coax a washed-up, retired QB who was coming off a season ending shoulder injury on his throwing arm.
     
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  31. mooseguts

    mooseguts Well-Known Member

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    Seeing as how Cutler has history with Gases's in Chicago I think its fair to say this was Gases's idea that he pitched to the GM/higher ups, sure they gave it the thumbs up but Gase is the one who got the ball rolling. If you really want my opinion, I think you either sign Kaepernick who at the bare minimum gives you some legs for this horrid line. Or maybe you go with the backup since he is the guy you designated to be 2nd in line to the starter.

    When Brady got injured in 2008 did the Patriots go and sign Testaverde or Rohan Davey? No, they went with Matt Cassel the back up a guy who wasn't even a starter in college. When Trent Green got hurt did the Rams try and sign a new guy to replace him? No, they went with Kurt Warner the back up. If Gase didn't think Matt was a good option than why is he the backup?

    No, you don't walk into the locker room and talk crap about Matt Moore or call it a season you do what Dick Vermeil did and say you will rally the troops and you will play good football. Did Dick Vermeil really think Warner was going to play good football probably not but these are the things you say as a coach.

    It's extremely easy to sit back and say it sucked because everybody saw this coming except the Dolphins brain trust which includes Gase. Cutler sucks and is inconsistent, there is no reality where he all of a sudden transforms into a quality QB in his 12th season.
    In his one season with Cutler the bears went 6-10...in those 9 losses with Cutler at QB he throws 10td and 9ints in the 49ers 10 losses with Kaepernicks he throws for 14tds and 3 ints. In 2016 games decided by 7 points or less Kaepernick 66% comp%-8td 2int-97.3 qb rating. 2015 Cutler 64% comp%-14td 8int-89.9 qb rating. I'd take the chance on the guy who may not win you games but is far less likely to throw int's and lose you games. As a Hispanic who lived in Hialeah for 16 years I don't give a damn what Kaepernick said, the elderly Hispanic population are some of the most racist people and they don't go to football games. NFL players have done far worse things than what Kaepernick has done, Leonard Little killed someone while driving drunk and than about a year later got a DUI. Adam Pacman Jones has been arrested about 9 times. These are the despicable players I would stay away from.

    If Adam Gase really thought enough of Cutler that he would lure him out of retirement because he thought he gave him the best chance at a playoff run than I seriously question Adam Gases's ability to judge good QB play. If you are deciding to go with Cutler you are basically letting the chips fall where they may. Every snap you're rolling the dice on int's, bad mechanics, throwing off the back foot, issues he's had for 12 years. If the alternative is 6-10 with Matt Moore or worse as oppose to 6-8 with Cutler, I take Moore at least im not giving free money to a guy who doesn't give a damn about football.
     
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  32. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
     
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  33. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    It's gase's job to make sure we have a good backup. Especially knowing that Thill was coming off a knee injury and was an injury risk. Also the decision to not do surgery on Thill is also partly on gase. Remember the eagles won the super bowl this year with a backup QB. Losing tannehill is not an excuse for us having one of the worst offenses in the league, the offense is specifically gase's responsibility and it was the worst performing unit on the team.

    Not having thill is not an excuse for performing so poorly, sure you expect some drop off, but not worst in the league kind of bad. It was a combination of losing Thill and very bad coaching as well, that's the truth stop making excuses.
     
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  34. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    The problem is... Matt Moore wasn't much better than Jay Cutler, if at all. Hindsight, I know. But we weren't playing in an offensive system that make back-up QB's look like Hall of Famers. And Matt Moore isn't Kurt Warner by any stretch of the imagination.
     
  35. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    He did make sure they had a good back-up. Moore was very capable of coming in for a game here and there. He's not, however, going to start a 16 game season. No team in the league "plans" their starting QB getting hurt in the pre-season and being out the entire year. It's just not feasible. They do, however, have a back-up that can come in and play a few games here and there is their starter gets injured.

    Gase had success with Cutler in the past. No one knew that Cutler was going to come in and play the way he played. I mean, there were other mitigating factors in his play, but I think it was obvious he was playing to not get hurt, too.
     
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  36. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    No Dan, you are just coming up with more excuses like you usually do. Best you could credibly say is that gase is a young coach and will learn from his mistakes and get better. But the fact of the matter is he did a very bad job of coaching this team last year.

    I repeat, the eagles won the super bowl this year with their backup QB playing for a significant part of the season including the playoffs and superbowl. Backup QBs are there to start when the starter can't go for as long as needed. If he didn't have the faith in Moore for that then that's his mistake for not being ready. Trying to bring a retired Cutler back from the broadcast booth coming off shoulder surgery and with his history of bad play and not giving a **** was a bad decision. That is completely on gase. He knew coming into the season that Thill was a high injury risk, he did not prepare for it. That is on gase. He opted to not have thill get surgery, that is partly on gase. The offense was the worst performing unit on the team, that is mostly in gase since he is responsible for the offense.

    Gase sucked at coaching last year. That is a fact. I hope he learns from his mistakes and gets better, but don't try to deny that he did a very bad job last season.
     
  37. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    The defense was equally bad both in absolute terms as well as in how far they dropped from 2016. The defense ranked 29th by points allowed (from 18th in 2016) while the offense was 28th by points scored (from 17th in 2016). And by standard deviations (the best way to measure this) they were both at almost exactly 1 standard deviation below the mean.

    Actually, the drop in defensive performance was worse in some sense because you can't point to losing the starting QB as the primary reason. But yeah.. I agree that Gase underperformed last year. 2018 will be the deciding year for me: produce a winning team or we need a new coach.
     
  38. The Finest

    The Finest Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    he should get 2 more years

    i think most underestimate how poorly this team is constructed due to the ineptitude of the FO.

    he's worked wonders with what he's been given
     
  39. mooseguts

    mooseguts Well-Known Member

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    While theres no denying the short comings of the defense I think part of that was the offense. We were dead last in 3rd down conversions, 15.3% of our drives ended in a TO which is 29th in the NFL, we averaged 5.4 plays per drive which is 27th, and our avg time per drive was 2:29 which is 26th. Thats a lot of extra time for our defense to be on the field.
     
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  40. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    Funily enough cbrad and I went through this point in another thread in the last 2 days. See posts #9 and #10 in particular in this thread https://thephins.com/threads/what-the-return-of-tannehill-means-for-2018.92712/

    There is a slight negative correlation between offensive output and what was allowed by the defense. Or a good offense willl give a little help to the D, or a bad O will hurt the D a little, and/or vice versa. We didn’t look into causality only the correlation.
    But output on one side of the ball accounts for, at most 5-10% of performance of the other side of the ball.
    So ‘The O is hurting the D’ or ‘The D is hurting the O’ may be true, but it is only true to a very limited and small degree. Worrying about the effect of one side of the ball has on the other is worrying about rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. There are other more serious problems that need to be addressed than what the other side of the ball is doing.
     
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