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Roquan Smith

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Redwine4all, Mar 12, 2018.

  1. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

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    I haven't seen a ton of full games. But when I watch him on tape, he is the reincarnation of Wilfork. I began to watching his tape with the hopes I would dislike because I dont want to spend another massive resource on defensive line. But WOW. Fell in love with him. I would not say an upgrade to Suh. I think that is a little crazy. Two different players. Maybe a better fit for what we need, yea.

    What it comes down to for Vea for me. Is how much do they like Phillips and DG. I know they liked DG early and Phillips was really good to end the year. Did they feel like they could let Suh go because he was too much and they were fine without him? Or do they feel like they let him go strictly for money and there is need there. Because this draft is too rich in linebackers, which we all know is a massive need for us, to pass on one for absolute BPA if you don't feel there is a need there.
     
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  2. Puka-head

    Puka-head My2nd Fav team:___vs Jets Club Member

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    I would take either Smith or Vea.Don't think Smith will be there. Vea would honestly be #2 BPA on my big board after Barkley. But I just base that on who looks to my eyes to be the best FOOTBALL PLAYER on the field that day. I don't think any of the top five QBs should be higher than 40. I would go so far as to say the top five LBs and the top five RBs and the top 5 DBs are all going to have better NFL careers than the top five QBs this year. Next years QB crop looks much more promising. The second and third tier QBs this year bear more consideration than the first rounders, especially for us.
     
  3. Redwine4all

    Redwine4all Well-Known Member

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    I rewatched Vea vs PSU bowl game and DaRon Payne vs UGA in the championship...and in just those two games, Payne was much better. It wasn't close. Payne was a difference maker even when he didn't make the T or get the sack. He changed the RBs angle and he made the QB step up and in one case throw a horrible INT. Vea made some plays, but wasn't a huge difference maker. I realize its only one game and there are a lot of factors...but based on those two clips, I'd take Payne clearly over Vea.

    Also, you can't watch PSU without seeing what a special player Saquan Barkley is. He's a top 5 running back his first day in the league, right there with Bell, Fournette, Elliott, and Gurley. Not that he'll even come close to 11, but whichever team gets him is going to have a crazy special player.
     
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  4. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you, I like payne more than vea. He is more disruptive and consistent in his play.
     
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  5. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    nobody made more money during the college football playoff and post season draft process than daron payne. isiah wynn the other postseason process big winner

    if we miss or pass on lb at 11 and I'm really thinking boomer is on to something with the vita vea thing as the pick I'm skipping lb til pick 73 and either plucking darrius leonard for the nickel and eventual wolb starter role (should they decide to move on from kiko after this year) or josey jewell which ive already gone into at length.

    leonard has a bit of a hiccup in his cod but shows good quick acceleration and while a project could start in 2019 as the every down weak..he'd also add length speed and cover at lb for the nickel to pair with kiko for 2018. would just mean that we have to find a 2 down strong which maybe stephone Anthony or chase allen can give us.

    I'm also looking at mark Andrews at 73 if he gets there...be a tough call...doesn't really check the athlete box off for pick 42...hmmm

    going into the offseason process I saw it as speed and range at lb as the primary need of the team followed by flex tight end but with suh gone I think 3 tech dt may jump to the top of the list
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2018
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  6. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Im just not the biggest Vea fan so id be out on him at 11..
     
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  7. Surfs Up 99

    Surfs Up 99 Team Flores & Team Tua

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    Vea is intriguing because of his sheer size. Imagine pairing him next to Phillips. That's some real beef there. I like him as much as any, but I am thinking if they can scheme for Suh, they probably could do it for any DT. Wouldn't another guy who is primarily a run stuffer be just as effective here especially if we can get him later and use our 1st rounder on another position of need?
     
  8. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    While it's true that Vea is a great run stuffer, the man can MOVE. He's so agile for someone his size and he can definitely get to the QB. He's probably just as quick as Suh but around 50 lbs heavier at the same height.
     
  9. Redwine4all

    Redwine4all Well-Known Member

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    I just haven't seen Vea dominate in any game. If there is film I need to watch, can someone link me in the direction...not highlights, but a game where he's winning his matchups repeatedly. I know he makes tackles if they run at him. I get that.

    Now, we need a DT that can give us 400 quality snaps a game. Vea can surely do that. But, I do think Payne will probably be in better condition to give us more snaps. Suh played nearly 800 snaps. You don't want anyone playing that much, but he did, and we need someone else to step up.
     
  10. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    Watch him against Alabama in the 2016 Peach Bowl.

    Here are a few plays.

    http://www.cfbfilmroom.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/vea-pass-rush.mp4?_=4

    Here is the entire game:

     
  11. Redwine4all

    Redwine4all Well-Known Member

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  12. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    That's the thing, Suh didn't create a lane...he created a pileup with multiple guys crashing down on him. And you can't fault Suh for commanding 2-3 blockers, but you can certainly fault our linebackers for not taking advantage. I'm not defensive guy so I can't tell you if it was more the players or the scheme, but it really didn't seem to be working out on passing downs and we haven't been dominant against the run for a long time.

    I will definitely miss Suh's destruction and I'm definitely not looking forward to playing against him. The longer he goes unsigned though, the more likely it is he ends up in New England at a steep discount. He canceled today's visit with the Raiders...which could be a bad sign that he's going to sit back and wait it out. That turns my stomach to think about!
     
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  13. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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  14. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    To take vea at 11 as a 3 tech you have to project significant impact vs the passing game

    There’s a reason miamis avoiding the dt market in free agency and its either waiting it out til the market drops on someone for a one year deal or they got eyes on something in the draft.

    Possible they just leaving their options open in case they miss/the values not there in the draft when we pick.

    We gonna add something though. Need that 4 man rotation and need to replace a bunch of snaps
     
  15. FinNasty

    FinNasty Alabama don’t want this... Staff Member Club Member

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    Add the best available talent and then adjust your scheme to fit your talent...

    I personally hate the concept of pre-determining “this is what we run” with hard lines in the sand. You obviously have to have some direction in how your build your roster... but overall they should be loose guidelines.

    Who knows if Burke will even be our DC in 2019? He could get fired if unsuccessful or hired as a HC after 1 year like Vance Joseph.

    Add the best available talent... then figure out how to best maximize it.
     
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  16. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    Awful lot of mocks now with Vita Vea to Miami at 11
     
  17. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    This, plus exploiting market inefficiency and setting rather than following the trend. As much as I hate NE and think they absolutely did/are cheaters, BB is really good at this. Look at the offensive evolutions - going from power running with guys like Corey Dillon, to the Moss era, to the Twin TE, then to quick slot guys like Welker/Edelmen once Hernandez got busted.
     
  18. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    Nah I’m drafting to fit my scheme

    Not miscasting guys out the gate

    Did that once already with dion jordan
     
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  19. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

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    DJ was a fine fit for the scheme. They just placed him in the wrong position within it.
     
  20. FinNasty

    FinNasty Alabama don’t want this... Staff Member Club Member

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    That was a failure to adjust our scheme. The idea is to not miscast guys... b/c you adjust your scheme based on your talent... not try to make your talent fit a scheme.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2018
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  21. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    they played a 43 and they drafted a 34 olb with no pass rush arsenal...he was 6 foot what 6 and 245 lbs...that has no business in a 43

    that's like drafting arden key in a 43 as anything other than a situational rusher. when a 34 olb is the ideal fit and where the grade comes from in the first place. and the most bang for your buck.

    and then to try and salvage it to play every down in a 43 they asked him to gain a bunch of weight for poa play as a 43 de and scraped the athlete in the process

    that wasn't a scheme fit at all grade wise as a prospect coming out

    anyways it's over now but it was a massive misevaluation
     
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  22. Surfs Up 99

    Surfs Up 99 Team Flores & Team Tua

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    Glad you guys are talking about this. What type of DT do we need now for our scheme, a 3 tech who has some pass rush ability, or a guy who plays the run and commands double teams? If we trade down and one of the top 2 DT's aren't there, I think Maurice Hurst might be a good fit for a 3 tech. He has a great 1st step.
     
  23. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    Ideally I think Burke would like a good pair of 3 tech DT's. Vea would, IMO, do a splendid job. But Hurst would be good too.
     
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  24. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    We miss in the draft I’d look at Bennie Logan on a one year deal

    I thought Tom Johnson and miami would make a match but I haven’t heard a peep about him since free agency opened
     
  25. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

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    I disagree. Arden Key has shown to be a very good pass rusher. Jordan never showed that in college. He showed insane athleticism. He showed the ability to cover as well. I think DJ would have failed regardless, because he cared about other things he shouldn't have. But I think he could of had a very successful career as a 4-3 SOLB.
     
  26. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    Key has more pass rush polish but the same light in the pants frame that poa wise doesn’t fit the 43 as a de

    2 point stance player...probably a wolb in a 34...has a nice burst and great length which is why I’d put him at weakside

    I’d be worried about scraping the athlete on that frame if you asked him to add much more weight. Carry it poorly

    The only true 43 de I see in the class that’s worth a top 50 pick is chubb and he’s worth a top 5 pick in pretty much any class
     
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  27. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    I give this current staff credit for identifying correct personnel fits for scheme as adds.

    Outside of Asiata last year which was an odd fit for our scheme Miami nailed correct scheme fit for every draftee

    They’ve done a better job of that of late and they did a good job to id that this 43 de class is seriously lacking so they will wait til 2019 for it when the class looks to be much better in terms of top graded talents

    This is a 34 class on the edge after chubb
     
  28. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

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    I understand what you're saying and even agree, but it's not going to happen and if it does that player will be left by the wayside and misused regardless of talent.

    That's just not how this defense works, unfortunately. There's really no wiggle room to make adjustments for non scheme fits and I don't see them straying from that.
     
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  29. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I cant fall in love with the guy..id take Payne first
     
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  30. FinNasty

    FinNasty Alabama don’t want this... Staff Member Club Member

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    Then they are bad coaches. Period.

    Bill Belichick doesn’t have a scheme he runs. His scheme has varied all over the place since he’s been in place... and that’s b/c he runs the schemes that best fit his talent, instead of pre-determining a scheme and making everything fit it b/c “that’s what he likes to run”.
     
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  31. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I’m really happy your here on this board Hoops..respect your work, Carmen as well...welcome man.
     
  32. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    Thanks man
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2018
  33. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I've read a lot about him this morning- did you know the dude had 11 rushing TD's as a senior in high school? He's a beast of a man that has all the potential in the world. At the same time though, most scouts feel that he's not ready to be a four-down starter because he's still so raw and undeveloped- he falls down a lot. He can't shed double teams because he never sees that 2nd blocker coming. He has heavy feet and prefers to just run people over....often neglecting technique for sheer strength.

    Another thing that got me was that he was academically ineligible for college due to grades, so he essentially dropped out of high school and finished the year online to bring up his GPA. He was a backup for most of his college career, with good stats but high inconsistency. Some scouts say he looks like a pro-bowler one series, then someone not worth even looking at the next. The key phrase used to describe him over and over again is "Inconsistent with huge potential."

    If we could sign him in the 4th round I'd be thrilled with this pick, but I just don't see him as #11 material. All the potential is there to be a top 5 DT in the next 3-5 years, yet I just can't see drafting in the first round on a maybe.
     
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  34. Redwine4all

    Redwine4all Well-Known Member

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    This is what I saw when I looked at the Penn State game. He was completely marginalized by a blocker and a chip. No real game planning needed. I think Da'Ron Payne is a much complete and dominant tackle.
     
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  35. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    Well I know Daniel Jeremiah asked a team picking in the low 20s if they spent time with vea and they said “why? To wish him good luck?” As in he’s gonna be long gone by then.

    The special teams open field on the returner tackle alone in the penn state game will get guys that size that can move that well drafted top 20. That play was rediculous. I do agree the penn state bowl game tape is not his best. May have been saving himself a little bit too for the pros. It happens.

    Derwin james has some tape like that too. Ie i know I’m damn good I’m not getting hurt out here.

    Kinda thing that usually cleans itself up once a guys getting paid. Not that I think veas tape shows a lack of effort. Motor looks damn good to me. 6 foot 4 347 too so this dudes not lacking anything measurables wise.

    I think Daron Payne and Atlanta type scheme are gonna make a match. Game looks like a falcon fit to me
     
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  36. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don’t see enough range and or pass rush ability to drop an 11 banger on him..
     
  37. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I see Payne doing what Saban wants him to do in that scheme and he doesn’t it beautiful, every rep he’s like a robot, perfect technique, pops off the snap, establishe skeverage, extends the arms to engage the tackle, then basically keep the tackle at bay while he reads the ball, Rios and finishes so consistently, the time I see him get unleashed to rush the qb I see more moves more range then Vea.

    So to me it comes down to this question..

    What can Vea do that Payne cant.? Because just because he’s bigger doesn’t mean much, Payne is quicker faster, better agility..

    I think some get enamored with that movement relative to his size and that buys them in..
     
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  38. PHINANALYST

    PHINANALYST Well-Known Member

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    Boom, I REALLY do hope you are right on Vea! He is who i’d Like to see .... think he will be an anchor here for a DECADE! And offers us flexibility to switch to 3-4 and back ....

    I fear we go with Smith, because of McMillan ... a bit of a question coming back from injury, and we have not made any changes/effort to offset. And dam sure Alonso isn’t an answer ....

    I do ask though, what are your thoughts on Allen? What can we look to see in year 2 from him? He showed positively at times last year ....
     
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  39. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Here are the relative pass-rushing productivity of potential first round defensive tackles for comparison sake:
    Da'Ron Payne performed like you expect from a run-down specialist. Vea performed like an every-down DT. I'm not sure you can write it off on scheme, either.
     
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  40. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

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    I just don't see it with Payne. Just not a fan. Maybe some of you are seeing what I am not. I don't think these two are close in comparison honestly.
     

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