Oh I’m looking forward to checking this out on Edmunds thanks. I was wondering why kolliman said miami was a fit for Roquan Smith schematically off his tape during his smith player analysis Didn’t add up for me. Although he did a great job of showing how poor at the poa Roquan is in the run game. Just how he’s scheme specific.
I like this kinda party. tell me what his celing is going to be as a pro..solid player, pro bowl player, all pro player?
the reps are littered with late recognition and poor spatial awareness on the field, your going to see him thinking one thing and the play being somewhere else, and its not a rare sight when you see it, its fairly often..also if you watch his combine drills, and you know what to look for your going to see some clunky footwork and wasted steps from point a to point b..He's got really long legs, hi cut player, not easy to stop and start laterally.
Care to share the numerous available examples you claim to see? Shouldn't be hard considering you claim it happens frequently in every game. And curious why your tone has changed since this post in a reply to me.
I agree with the :45 second take you presented. Looks to me like Edmunds has backside cutback/flats responsibility and I see what you mean with the backside safety not pursuing ball and dropping vertically down the hash. I assume given the boundary side corner once the motion starts does not follow the motion player indicating zone that db has the boundary vertical responsibility. Well played sir.
lol..don't call me a liar dude. I have nothing to prove to you. it's not my style of posting to hold your hand. If you think his lack of awareness on a field, and his poor footwork and recognition is scheme related then ok, I respect that opinion, I don't agree with it..My style is to let it play out and we will see, let the record of our words be the judge.
Where the hell is this stiffness and slow feet on tape? I sure as hell don’t see it. That cat is gifted. He covers that wheel absolutely effortlessly in terms of his transition and uses his outside arm text book to feel the cover man and take away the inside shoulder while running the route basically for him. Yeah I will be dumbfounded if that kid makes it to 11 Way too damn much talent upside and physical abilities.
7 names put them in order of preference think scheme and offense ask also...or don’t up to you lol It’s gonna be one of them if we stick at 11 Derwin james Roquan Smith Tremaine Edmunds Baker mayfield Josh rosen Vita Vea Minkah fitzpatrick
I'm not calling you a liar, I just simply believe you don't understand what you're watching in terms of scheme and player assignments. I also don't think he has a lack of awareness on the field nor poor footwork as he is frequently sound within his required duties if you are familiar with the Foster's scheme.
and this is where I don't feel the need to have to show someone what exactly I'm talking about..this is where I don't feel the need to go any deeper on the debate, this is where I like to say, you see what you see and I see something different.. trust your eyes,put it on the record, cause I trust my eyes as to what to look for, I see some nuances, tendencies and some innate things in this player that is gonna be hard to overcome. cant risk it at 11. as far as your scheme comment..my ways of evaluating players don't have to coincide with whatever scheme they are playing..sorry if you cannot conceptualize that. you think he's ''Sound in his responsibilites''..aimlessly throwing himself in his gap responsibility while the play is happening elsewhere is like an artist following a paint by numbers sketch. I think he's a very inconsistent player at the college level..
My hope is they find a player (at each pick) that has an innate love for the game, and drive to be the best they can be. Seems to me that is the spark that turns all of these excellent athletes into stars and carries the team with them. Every year these college kids come to the NFL with their 10 percentile measurements and combine heroics but just fail at the NFL level due to a lack of desire. They make it to the NFL because they were born to, they succeed in the NFL because they want to. I do wish that was something that was a column on these prospect sheets. Not sure how to quantify it. I'm just a dude on the couch that loves the Dolphins and I know they need a LB and a DB. Smith, James or Minkah seem to have that desire from what I've read.
It’s not It necessarily slow feet, it’s feet that takes small extra steps to stop and start, unless he guesses right or his actual responsibility on the play puts him into position, he’s very slow to diagnose..Instincts are not a plus.. You are willing to take that risk on that size and those flashes of big time physical ability, I see too many weaknesses to be confident about that pick, a few things I just don’t trust about his game that it will translate.. Do you believe that a linebacker can be great without having great instincts and awareness?
To answer your question I do not. Instincts trump all for me that’s why I’m so high on josey jewell despite the average athlete. But I do think that what Carmen has presented with regards to va techs scheme ask of Edmunds offsets some of that. And I don’t think he’s a finished product by any means in terms of play recognition. I also think miamis scheme prefers or at least seems to prefer gap fill and poa over instincts anyways. I don’t think Edmunds recognition is poor. I also think he’s by far the best tackle to tackle sift thru trash lb in the class. It’s probably not gonna matter all indicators I’m getting is top 8 for edmunds
the one I'm kind of wondering about is denzel ward...all indicators im getting is top 10 but I just got to wonder because of the size...183 lbs 5 foot 10... I know one thing. it will be good for Miami to hear that name called in the top 10. indicators on quenton nelson seem to be gone by pick 8. I buy it. who thinks buffalo sits still at 12 should they still be there on draft day if rosen gets to say 8? I sure don't. I'd plan on them jumping Miami if a qb falls into their wheelhouse. assuming they don't trade up into the top 3 with the giants which I believe is on the table
It isn’t like Edmunds is great at the things your mentioning either.. Any Gm who would take a high draft pick and ignore instincts and awareness because they want him to fill a gap well shouldn’t be a gm.. I’ll take a guy who can get to point b with his instincts and play recognition faster than a guy who is big and fast..
if Miami whiffs at lb in the first 2 days go get micah kizer as a 2 down base thumper with one of those 4th rounders... it's possible he hears his name called on day 2. timed speed faster than play speed. teams like to think timed speed means range I don't see it that way. lacks range. tackle to tackle box type
You would think you have learned lessons by now.. Just because you don’t agree with me, or maybe can’t see what I see, doesn’t mean you should be hurling insults. But I can dig it if is the way you want to communicate..
That’s not what I’m arguing. I too think he will go top 10 and would be ecstatic to have him at 11. What I’m saying is that scouts agree with what Deej is saying about Edmunds. Lacks instincts etc. Carmen said Edmunds has no such deficits and it’s all in VA Tech’s defensive scheme. Well, those who get paid to actually grade players say that Edmunds lacks instincts. Most would still pick him in the top 10, however, because they think he will get better. Deej doesn’t think he will.
Yeah I’m in the minority’s when it comes to me saying I wouldn’t take him at 11, most folks think that the lack of awareness and instincts can be overcome, and attribute it a lot to youth.. I just can’t see the light at the end of the tunnel when it comes to his awareness on the field. I appreciate your ability to disagree with me with class and respect.
That’s the thing though...some people may think Edmunds is the best player in the draft and some may think he’s a 2nd day pick. The truth is, no one knows for sure and all a person can do is be confident in their pick. You’re confident, I’m confident, but both of us could be wrong. However, I’m not going to ridicule you for your opinion. That would make me a reall *** hat. Lol
Evaluating talent is a sensitive subject.. some folks, even coaches, think just because they know the game they can evaluate talent, it’s a different skill..I have my own proven methods when breaking down a player.. some can’t understand that because it’s not how they do it..
I never knew it was so sensitive. lol...And from what I remember you seem to be right more often than wrong on the things you say about players.
Just imagine all the divide coaches and front office people have about who selected who, players that the front office acquire that the coaches don’t believe in.. I mean think about our own situation, here you have gase bringing in his guys who have all failed, Bushrod, Thomas, Cutler. I’m sure there are some rolling of the eyes..
If Rosen is at 6 I think Miami or the Bills could pull the trigger there. If I was a betting man that is where I would think this would happen. I'm not so sure the Giants will trade out and miss out on Barkley. Now if the Browns happen to take their chances on QB and grab Barkley 1st, I can see the Giants trading out. This might not belong in this thread but Hoops started it.
My man, Deej. I think you're trippin' a bit on Edmunds. You're making it sound like he should be like a 6th round or UDFA type guy. People have to remember when evaluating him, it's important to watch his tape from last season in '17. He improved so much in his last year. I mean, before that, he was pretty much an effin' high school player. High school!! . Yes, he did have issues with cramming up on the line and getting lost in the pile, but that improved a lot. His instincts and play recognition were strong last year. Just think in 3 years, he'll only be 22. Ha! Talk about the potential on top of that cake. I just don't see the same dominance and potential in Smith. Can you see him taking on NFL linemen for that long? I do like Smith and I think he will be a solid player, but what's the max for him? If Edmunds can continue to learn and grow, he could be scary good. IMO, a lot of this comes down to the mental make up/personality/attitude, etc, etc, etc. Yes, I know this is just a highlight video on YouTube, but it is from his last year and there are some amazing plays here. Just commenting on the first nine plays. 1. Good recognition, pursuit and a good, fundamental tackle. 2. Great read and another solid proper, textbook, wrap up tackle. You see a lot of those. 3. Solid, speedy pursuit for such a big guy. 4. Another solid read and solid tackle. 5. Speedy, solid wrap up. 6. Talk about a good read and pursuit. 7. Good read and pursuit cutting through the line and making the tackle for a loss. Plays fast for a big guy. 8. Just bad asrse 9. Doesn't bite and makes a great play.
There's no doubt in my mind that Edmunds has the ability to be a top player in the NFL. He has his flaws, however. And Smith is currently everything we think Edmunds can be some day even though he has his own flaws.
With his build and size and athletic ability that's certainly a possibility. Will he though, that's why some (most from what I can tell) have Smith rated higher right now. And all the scheme talk is just fluff, IMO. You can either play and learn or you can't. I've said it before...if the Dolphins are lucky enough to have a choice between either guy I'll be one happy mo-fo.
I actually see most having Edmunds rated higher, but whatever. In this case, I think the scheme stuff isn't just fluff simply because of his size and style. You need solid DTs and probably a bigger. thumper like Lb to help eat up blockers and let Smith roam free. Having a solid and healthy McMillan would be huge for Smith to thrive, but that's still a big unknown. This is a pretty good breakdown:
someone's got to try to drive some discussion around here I'm bored to tears... in terms of upside and ceiling Edmunds and smith is no contest...Edmunds all day every day...that doesn't mean he will be the better pro but one is much more scheme specific in terms of fit and maximizing return I've found through the years that what people seem to struggle the most with is scheme ask and scheme fit...doesn't matter if it's nfl offense defense qb or draft prospect
If I had a nickel for every time someone emphatically told me that Player "A" was "hands down the best" I'd be rich. I'd also be rich if I received a nickel for every time Player "A" failed to live up to their pre-draft hype. I would agree that I think Edmunds has the higher ceiling. I wouldn't agree that he will for sure to hit that ceiling. I wouldn't agree that he is better than Smith right now. I also don't agree that Smith is not a fit for Miami. Those who think Smith would only work as a WILL for Miami tend to also believe that Kiko sucks....so...where's the problem? I get that Kiko can't be let go and is getting too much money to not be a starter, but what's wrong with bringing along a player like Smith more slowly than normal? I mean, even if Edmunds comes in and starts day one at SAM he's not going to be much of a factor due to his inexperience and inability to read plays right now. Pick Smith, rotate him in at SAM and WILL and see what he can do. If he in fact can only be successful at WILL (which I don't believe would be the case) kick Kiko to the curb next year and make Smith your full time, 3 down WILL backer. Saying that...again, I'd absolutely love to see Edmunds wearing Aqua and Orange.
A general question: Would you 'all classify these guys as blue chip, or does someone on this list fall below that standard? Just curious. I am hearing Vita Vea is dropping.
My opinion is we have to be willing to live with that. The reality is, if we were lucky enough to draft Edmunds, we'd have two starting LBs that have never played a down in the NFL. That unit, this year, is not going to be all world. But...next season, I think they will be dynamite. Esp if we can get a DT like BJ Hill and/or Tim Settle to work in that rotation.
i didn't say "hands down the best" so you can keep your nickel I said upside wise "it's no contest" I stand behind it. miamis scheme doesn't protect the lbs it exposes the mike and outside backers...Edmonds for that aspect is as good a option as you will ever find...you aren't gonna wash that dude out at the 2nd level or the poa...roquan smith you are going to take for a ride if you get your hands on him...he's gonna try to elude you not take you on stack and shed you...big difference...we aren't run and chase smith in this scheme I see only as a weak...unless you put some serious take on thump in front of him and Miami doesn't have that...we are upfield gap penetrating...the closest option we have to a take on and eat up type dt is godchaux...and while he's a bull it's still not the correct ask you'd waste smiths range and speed at strong anyways and ask him to do what he's worst at thump at the poa and take on...this scheme would have to change for me to consider anything other than weak with roquan smith kiko was moved cause Miami in 2016 lacked anything around him frankly more than anything else...hell we ended up with mike hull who was and will always be awful at the poa, goalline, and take on...he gets moved 3 yards off the ball on the goalline...and that's separate from wearing a target in coverage every snap...kikos weakness is carry coverage at weak and poa take on at mike...and the carry coverage thing is highly too much air space driven...that's why I want a carry coverage offset option like a derwin james or even Edmunds. 6 foot 4 and fluid like that he can turn and run with the best of them...doesn't matter anyways he gone before Miami the league knows Edmunds type talent and play now while the rest of the game develops comes around once every decade maybe...someone's sprinting that card up and I completely disagree with that assessment of Edmonds at strong..but for Miami he has to also play in the nickel...in 2018 that would mean likely paired with kiko... basically Edmonds ask to me looks like it would be Lawrence Timmons...base strong nickel mike...but in a whole hell of a lot more upside and ceiling player with ridiculous size and physical abilities to boot and tackle to tackle he's gonna punish you and do it also while running like a gazelle to the perimeter
"It's no contest" and "hands down the best" are synonymous phrases. You said it yourself "IF" you get your hands on him. All this protection talk is nonsense. If you can get a big body on any LB, including Edmunds, you can block them, but Smith is so good at slipping blocks it’s very difficult to do. And if Miami starts playing more Dime/Nickel/Hybrid (like Burke has hinted at) Smith would be an even better fit. The Dolphins signed Anthony and Allen (and even Timmons to an extent) because they hoped they could play SAM and man on TE's and Smith would be a better alternative IMO than those 2.
Allen can’t carry coverage teams aren’t gonna just let you get away with stuff like that. Allen at the poa can play a 2 down strong he’s lost at mike. But he’s probably the 2 deep mike right now Anthony athletically can carry coverage but he’s lost at lb on anything not primary assignment. And teams know it. The saints knew it that’s why they dumped him to us. Anyways those are in house options albeit poor ones. Where are you playing Roquan ideal fit wise in base, nickel, dime, hybrid? I don’t really get the hybrid aspect of that cause it’s not like you’d ever put him at safety.
