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Roquan Smith

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Redwine4all, Mar 12, 2018.

  1. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    I think vea and Washington at 13 if he gets there make too much sense

    So to me that’s where the buck stops.
     
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  2. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    I guess I'm not seeing this huge deficiency in Smith's poa or block and shed abilities. Yes, I think he could be better, but he doesn't suck nor is he terrible at either. If you watch all of his games you'll see plenty of times where he knocked a lineman on his azz.
     
  3. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    I know you didn't ask me, but I'm really liking Josey Jewell. Not at 42, but if he can be had in a later round I'd be happy with him. He's not the biggest or fastest, but the guy is extremely smart and no one has better instincts than this kid. And, for not being fast, he can cover very well.

    If Smith, Esch, and Edmunds are gone by 11, at 42 I'd love to see Evans there. I doubt he will be, however. The problem is, after the top LB's are taken I'm not sure any left will be worth the 42 pick. Of course there are always surprises. One thing I know, I'd love to be able to get a guy like Griffin on the Dolphins and I might even pick him at 73. I'm not sure how he could/would be utilized, but I think he could play anywhere from LB to S to CB. He's a phenomenal athlete, but his drive and mental make-up really make me like him. I mean, the guy came in and pushed up 20 reps at 225 with one hand. Mind boggling...
     
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  4. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    Like anything else, the SPARQ score has it's faults and misses. However, it's a really good way to look at players and those who have good scores typically end up being really good in the NFL.
     
  5. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

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    I see the deficiency and see it being bigger at the next level. Doesn't stop me from agreeing with you. I think its an overblown topic....Does he have some struggles there? Yes. I can pick struggles of EVERY draft pick. From Barkley on down.
     
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  6. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    I see the deficiency I just don't see it as being a reason not to pick a talent like him. As you wrote, all players have them, but not all players are as talented or smart as Smith.
     
  7. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

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    I agree. Hes on my short list for 11. But I wouldn't play him at sam. Maybe some sets line up at sam.
     
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  8. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    I don't think his drop off in play would be very noticeable at SAM so I'd have no problems putting him there. I think he's talented enough and smart enough to be an All-Pro no matter where he's placed.
     
  9. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    The closer we get the more likely I would be to give up 42 to get to say 8 for Rosen
     
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  10. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Ive not thought ''hi level instincts'' either when looking at Roquon, I think their pretty good..Better than Edmunds by a good amount imo.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2018
  11. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I would think Dallas would be interested in Vea, having Lawrence on the outside, having Lee and Smith at linebacker, seems like there is a fit there, can't remember them having a big strong presence in the middle for a long time.
     
  12. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

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    I agree. Pretty good instincts. He isn't Zach Thomas. However, good instincts, high level first step and speed, driving through the tackle. That is a high level linebacker. I see Lawrence Timmons in Roquon. And I know we saw the back end of Timmons, but he was very good for a long time.
     
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  13. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I was very high and wanted us to draft Deion Jones, regardless of the fit the year he came out..I see similarities in the way they track the ball, Deion is exceptional at tracking with proper angles, explosive athleticism to arrive quickly..Roquon the same..we all know Roquon is the best tackler in the draft..

    I really like him when it comes to defending the dual threat qbs in this league as well.something that should be considered.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2018
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  14. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    I'd rather have Allen or Mayfield, but I'd give that up for Rosen, too.
     
  15. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    I want one of rosen Edmonds James chubb

    And I know I can’t get chubb. If derwin goes at pick 7 I’m on the horn offering 42 and 11 to 8 and 9 as long as rosen is on the board

    Id give up 42 and 11 for rosen or chubb
     
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  16. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Where the heck are you getting that edmunds doesnt move well laterally? He actually moves better laterally than smith who just turns and runs in a straight line from a to b most of the time. Did you see Edmunds running the LB drills at the combines, he showed better lateral agilty than just about anybody. It its actually amazing to watch a guy his size move like that. About him bulking up and slowing down in the future you might have a point there but that will mostly depend on his diet and training regimen.

    I feel you have a negative bias against bigger physically gifted players and always seem to root for the smaller underdog types.
     
  17. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    He can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Deej was meaning he can't move laterally on his own. I think he was talking aboyt Edmunds in terms of him getting caught up on blocks when moving laterally. And he's right. The more I watch Edmunds the more I see him getting caught up in traffic. A player his size shouldn't have this problem, but he does.

    Look at about the 5:00 mark:



    And at about the 3:45 mark:



    And he still look lost a lot. Check him out here at about the 5:55 mark:




    Right from the start of this video he looks like he's never played before..lol:

     
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  18. Surfs Up 99

    Surfs Up 99 Team Flores & Team Tua

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    Just finished listening to the latest 3 yards per carry podcast and - providing my listening comprehension is in order - I think Boomer said he is very high on Evans and even thought Evans might eventually end up being the best Alabama LB taken this year. CK thinks Smith can be a star and Boomer added that Smith did not miss one tackle last year. Not one! I think either can help us. I suppose if Smith is there at 11 we should go with him. If not, maybe a small trade back for Evans as he might not be there at 42. Damn, this is frustrating. I wish we had more picks. I think a lot of guys can really help us!
     
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  19. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    I haven't listened to their latest podcast yet (It's on my to do list) so I can't confirm or deny what their opinions are, but I do know CK has mentioned Smith a few times in Club and he seems to think Smith would be a good fit for Miami.
     
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  20. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    Rashaan Evans looks like a patriot to me with a pick in the 20s
     
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  21. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    I agree, but I really hope not.
     
  22. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Not the case about smaller prospects, I base a lot on movement skills relative to position needs, not size, this is why I love the combine, I did not like Edmunds footwork..

    There are times where I’m out on a player because of his frame and lack of impact at impact..

    See the jessie Bates from wake forest..
     
  23. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    Those Edmonds videos look pretty good to me. Pretty assignment sound. In terms of being where he should be.

    I just don’t get these evaluations. I’d like to see him not let the ball outflank him at times but again I think that’s recognition and will come in time. And he’s still getting in on the tackle.

    He’s dealing with a whole lot more trash than Roquan Smith is on tape but I think the difference there is Edmonds has to flow slower at times horizontally to maintain assignment and is not free to just run and chase as the backside lb. when he’s play side he attacks.

    The ask of the lb schematically looks a lot different to me between ga and va tech.

    Exactly like Carmen has said.

    I’m not sure what people could want more though in terms of when he is reached by linemen. No one washes him out he goes where he wants to go. And that will only get better with more understanding of using his length to press guys and leave an arm free etc.

    Guys that size with that level poa and take on don’t move like that as off the ball lbs. it just doesn’t happen

    He can be 260 finished product and still run sub 4.6 and be granite at the poa. And no that doesn’t mean he has to play on the edge as a primary pass rusher. That cat can carry it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2018
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  24. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    Evans does a lot of north south stuff which is very patriots like at the lb level.

    I’m thinking pick 23 if they stay.

    Lve either goes before him or after him but that pick is highly upside driven in terms of 2 years from now. Lacks consistency with the take on and thump as already noted. For me pick 11 and vander is too rich.

    There’s some talk he has a neck issue too. Might just be smoke
     
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  25. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    I dont know what you are watching but I looked at the clips at the time stamps indicated and I see absolutely no issue moving laterally. I see him taking on linemen and stacking them, holding up at the POA which forces the RB to take a different route and then edmunds shedding his block and chasing.

    In terms of him being lost I also think you are exagerating, he does take some false steps and sometime misdiagnoses where the ball is going, but he is generally sound in his responsibilities regarding what the VT defense is asking him to do. I think you need to understand a bit more how the VT defense works and what his actual responsibilites are.
     
  26. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    We will just have to agree to disagree. IMO, Edmunds was lost in a number of those plays and washed out in others.

    Now, I'm not saying that this always happened to him. And I'm not saying that he can't learn the position, but it seems I've been able to find Edmunds getting hung up on blocks as much as I have Smith.
     
  27. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    It’s too bad there won’t be a Zach Cunningham sitting there at pick 42.

    I’d take him over any of these lbs in our scheme not named edmonds
     
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  28. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I was talking about his drills at the combine
     
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  29. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think your exaggerating how good his instincts and awareness are..
     
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  30. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Lorenzo Carter looks even more like a Patriot in the 20's.
     
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  31. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Agreed on Cunningham, he’s a player I lobbied hard for last year, interesting enough most folks told me I was crazy then.. only a couple were (fin nasty) myself were willing to take him at 18..I wrote this the other day



    “I don’t know about anyone else but I had higher grades on Myles Jack, Deion Jones and Zach Cunningham over this years linebacker crop.

    “Haven’t found my Joe Schobert either in the later rounds.”

    “Roquon is very close to Deion for me..”


    Just to let you know we can agree on players, not sure where you had Jack but he was a player I wanted to take regardless of the rumors, so we missed on him altogether which sucked.. he’s now a beast of a player.. pro bowler all day.

    Deion Jones was someone I wanted us to draft in the 2nd round the year he came out, called him incredibly underrated at the time with pro bowl potential... he made the pro bowl..

    Joe schobert is a player I was higher than anyone else I heard read or talked to that year, I said he would be one of the steals of the draft that year and was going completely underrated relative to where pundits were slotting him..he made the pro bowl last year..

    Zach Cunningham, had him pegged to us at 18 last year, didn’t want to hear about his soft unsure tackling ability, thought he had and has, incredible counter athleticism and instincts.. absolutely loved him...2nd on the team in tackles for the Texans, everyone is so high on him coming into this year, he’s trainibg hard..

    I’ve been looking hard for linebackers for a long time because I don’t believe this franchise besides Zach, has ever had a truly great one in the modern era..I believe my record is very good on the position..

    Edmunds to me doesn’t have the cognitive quickness or awareness I like to see in a top 15 player.. I’m not gonna let his athleticism and size distract me from what I see upstairs.. I don’t see great coverage ability I don’t see great pass rush ability, I don’t see great instincts..so we disagree on this one, and if I’m wrong I’ll be right here to tell you you Got me on this one..
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2018
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  32. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I see some similarities upstairs with Stephone Anthony as I do Edmunds in the sense where, when both players have 1 clear responsibility on the play, or they actually read the play correctly, they are explosive and look great, for example, seeing a back drift out into the flat and closing is impressive to see when you have speed and power like that, but there is a reason why I said Anthony would be a early round bust and I wouldn’t even think about him until the late rounds.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2018
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  33. Carmen Cygni

    Carmen Cygni Well-Known Member

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    Again, and again, you need to understand the scheme fits of these players to understand why they are successful.

    Jack plays in a 4-3 Stack, which is a 2 gap DL variant of an even 1 gap front. Wash also rotates all 3 of his backer spots to expound on versatility for matchup purposes and to capitalize on their strengths while the multiple gap techniques of the DL also allow for Under looks that also provide similar free flow capabilities in the run game.

    Jones plays in Quinn's 4-3 Under, which is a mirror of Seattle's D, and also features a hybrid front where 2 gap techniques are varied to give roaming opportunities on the second level.

    Just because a player is a pro bowler on one team, doesn't mean he will provide the same type of production for another. Case & point is Alonso, where he had his ROTY season in Pettine's hybrid 3-4, but has failed to reach that status again in 4-3 Over attacking defenses (Eagles & Dolphins).

    Neither Jack nor Jones would have had the same success in Miami. This holds true for Smith as well, being that his consensus comp is Jones.

    Scheme fit is real. You can't just plug and play players like a video game in spite of scheme responsibility differences.

    This is why Edmunds is an ideal LB for the Dolphins and our defense. high-end POA strength, the ability to shed lineman, and gap fill is a requirement, not a desire. It's more complicated than just seeing what you like on film as you have to take into account the scheme they will play in the pros. It's actually a situation that is very similar to how we misused Dion Jordan in trying to make Smith happen for Miami.


    Our LB's don't have pass rush responsibility. We do blitz them, albeit in low percentages, but the DL provides the defense's pass rush. These are the things you are continually overlooking when searching for Miami's next LB. You must recognize the player responsibility and fits within our scheme.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2018
  34. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I got him going to Pitt at 28. Hes a steeler if ever there was one imo
     
  35. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Ahem, you forget i wanted Cunningham as well? :confused2:
     
  36. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    I liked Cunningham, but Deej was right on him.

    Scheme is real and must be considered for most players. There is a time and place to forget about scheme, however. And that is when you have a player that transcends scheme. Marino, Jordan, Rodgers, Manning, Walter Payton, Jim Brown, Barry, and so on, are athletes that would have excelled on any team. When you ONLY pick for scheme and ignore talent you will become a loser.
     
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  37. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Guys/Girls,

    Ill say this once...there have been a handful of posts in this thread we all could do without. If you cant keep it cordial and conversational and feel the need to fill the thread with confrontational nonsense and name calling vacations will be handed out.

    Stop turning a good thread in to your way or the highway. You can debate until the wheels falls off if its done right but the second you comment on the poster instead of the post, you lost.

    PM if you need further clarification
     
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  38. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Sorry there Boik, that’s right you were on that Cunningham train..
     
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  39. Zigs

    Zigs Member

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    Well I think you guys pretty much covered Edmunds vs Smith as in depth as can be covered. I think someone might have even mentioned aerodynamics and how it effects run speed.

    My questions is and I know this does not matter too much but Smith had a private workout and the Dolphins met with him at his pro day but I cannot find any meeting with Edmunds. Does the lack of meetings mean lack of interest since we are talking 1st round pick?

    This could not have been said better. Thanks DM

    Does Smith's athletic ability transcend scheme?

    I'm with Hoops though on Rosen. I say go after him.

    What are you guys thoughts on Hercules Mata’afa in the middle rounds?
     
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  40. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Hmmm

    So Myles Jack...Deion Jones wouldn’t of been good in Miami...ok, completely disagree there..

    I suppose Zach Cunningham and Joe Schobert as well.
     
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